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Is 5 yrs old the new young?

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    #16
    Originally posted by TheHammer View Post
    I was raised to believe 5 year old deer were mature. I now know that it is not the case and 6-8 YO is more along the lines of mature. I have had too many buddies show me a deer jump in antler size from 5 years old to 8. Getting deer to 5 year olds is a good thing, but getting bucks to 8 years old is a game changer for the long run of things.
    I agree with this, we don't even think about killing them until 7. Very rare we would, most 8+. Heck we had a deer get to 10 this year and was his best set of antlers.

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      #17
      I think it varies from ranch to ranch, the area, the management, and the set up (you own the property or lease it )

      We have a B&C straight typical that is 200 inches but we have him at 5 years old. We let him ride this year but it is a huge risk because he most likely will not get any better and he could not survive to next year.

      I read a study awhile back about some collared, LF bucks that were tracked for some years. The fatality rate of older bucks (5-8 years old) was around 25% per year from predators. That makes you think.

      We kill 180-200 plus inch deer every season (LF) and our minimum age is 6 - some get to 7 and 8 but generally they are 6 when taken - if we are unsure on a buck we let him ride and try to err on the conservative side

      Comment

        #18
        Originally posted by Huntingfool View Post
        I think it varies from ranch to ranch, the area, the management, and the set up (you own the property or lease it )

        We have a B&C straight typical that is 200 inches but we have him at 5 years old. We let him ride this year but it is a huge risk because he most likely will not get any better and he could not survive to next year.

        I read a study awhile back about some collared, LF bucks that were tracked for some years. The fatality rate of older bucks (5-8 years old) was around 25% per year from predators. That makes you think.

        We kill 180-200 plus inch deer every season (LF) and our minimum age is 6 - some get to 7 and 8 but generally they are 6 when taken - if we are unsure on a buck we let him ride and try to err on the conservative side
        Just 25%? Wow.

        Comment

          #19
          not the study I was referring to but this is interesting - this is an old study

          Buck Mortality - Death in the Brush Country
          https://www.tecomate.com/content/index.php/site/comments/buck_mortality_death_in_the_brush_country/
          As soon as I dialed in the radio frequency to buck #0083 and picked-up the antenna, I knew the 6.5-year-old buck was dead. Instead of hearing the characteristic “beep....beep....beep” from his collar, I heard a signal that was twice as fast, “beep, beep, beep, beep.” I jumped down from the truck bed and walked in the direction where the signal was strongest. After walking only 100 yards, there he was. His tall-tined rack, with trailing skeleton, stood out like a sore thumb in the open brush country.It was still March, only three months into my telemetry study, and already nine of the 44 bucks that we had captured the previous October had died! None of these bucks were killed by hunters, so why were they dying?Most hunters would be surprised to learn that 10-30 percent of all bucks in south Texas die each year due to natural causes alone, which does not include bucks dying from hunting-related causes. Dr. Charles DeYoung, at Texas A&M University-Kingsville, was one of the first scientists to discover this alarmingly high natural mortality rate.DeYoung and his assistants captured 282 bucks on four different ranches in south Texas from 1984-87. On two of these ranches, 53 bucks were radio collared with special, mortality-sensing transmitters that allowed the researchers to tell if the buck was dead or alive by the pulse rate of the radio signal. These bucks were monitored an average of once every 11 days from an airplane.Whenever a buck’s radio signal indicated that he was dead, researchers walked in on foot to locate the buck and try to determine what caused the buck’s death. Twenty-three of these 53 bucks died during the study. The cause of death could not be determined for 10 of the bucks. Three bucks were killed by coyotes and two bucks were killed by mountain lions. The majority of the bucks that died on one of the ranches, died during the post-rut between late December and March.Shortly after this study was completed, a second study was started to determine if a coyote-control program could increase buck survival during the post-rut. This study began in 1987 and lasted three years. I arrived in Texas to complete the third year of research.Again, we captured and radio collared bucks on four different areas of two ranches. However, on two of these four areas, we did everything we could to remove as many coyotes as possible from January-June of each year. We removed an average of 107 coyotes from each of the two areas each year of the study.We then monitored the survival of the bucks on the four areas to see if our coyote control had any benefit. Coyotes killed seven bucks. Five of these bucks were killed on the two areas of each ranch where coyotes were not controlled and removed. However, we did not see any difference in the number of bucks, or the age structure of bucks, during fall helicopter surveys. If our coyote removal was keeping bucks alive, it wasn’t increasing buck survival to the point that additional bucks were appearing in our annual helicopter surveys. The final conclusion was that buck survival did not increase enough to justify the expense related to the intensive coyote removal.Shortly after completing this second study, I began work on a third telemetry study on one of these same two ranches toward my doctorate degree at The University of Georgia. The purpose of this additional study was to measure home range size, behaviors, and movement patterns among bucks of different ages. We captured and radio collared 125 bucks, ranging in age from 1.5 to 11.5-years-old, from 1992-94. Eleven different assistants and I used radio telemetry to track the movements of these bucks on a daily basis year-round for three years.During the first year of my study, 11 bucks died of natural causes. During 1993, 10 bucks died of natural causes, and during 1994, eight bucks died of natural causes. Twenty-nine of the 125 bucks (23 percent) died of natural causes over the three years of the study.When I looked at these data based on the mortality rates by age class, I found that young bucks and old bucks had the highest natural mortality rates. Yearling bucks (1.5years old) had the highest natural mortality rate at 37 percent. The next highest natural mortality rates were found in 9.5-year-old bucks (33 percent), followed by 8.5 (27 percent) and 7.5-year-old bucks (25 percent). The lowest natural mortality rates were found in 4.5-year-old bucks (1 percent) and 5.5-year-old bucks (6 percent). Bucks 2.5-years-old (7 percent), 3.5-years-old (20 percent), and 6.5-years-old (8 percent) had intermediate mortality rates.Amazingly, 77 percent (20/26) of these bucks died during the post-rut between January and March of each year, with most deaths occurring in January.WHY DO SO MANY BUCKS DIE DURING THE POST-RUT?The most accepted theory is that bucks are extremely malnourished at this time of the year due to the rigors of the rut. During the course of the rut from November through early January, bucks lose up to 30 percent of their body weight. They are so intent on spending every possible moment in search of does that are in “heat” that they basically quit eating in early November. By the time the rut has ended many of these bucks have lost so much weight that they cannot recover and either die of malnutrition and disease, or they are killed by coyotes.Surprisingly, in penned deer studies, where bucks are isolated in small pens and provided unlimited, highly nutritious feed, bucks still voluntarily decrease food intake and lose weight during the rut!Coyotes, at this same time of the year, travel in packs. Working in combination with other coyotes, they drag these worn-out bucks to the ground. Even mature bucks are susceptible to coyotes during the post-rut.Another theory that may explain some of the deaths was investigated by the Southeast Wildlife Disease Unit at The University of Georgia. These researchers discovered that around 10 percent of bucks in the Southeastern U.S. die each year from brain abscesses during the post-rut. Bucks that repeatedly fight with other bucks, as well as bucks that make high numbers of rubs during the rut, eventually rub their foreheads to the point that the skin is broken open. This break later causes an infection allowing bacteria through the skin. Once inside, these bacteria eat their way through the brain case of the buck. The bacteria most often tunnel through one of the fissure lines in the skull, eventually leading to the buck’s death. Unfortunately, this disease affects predominantly older-aged bucks because they often make rubs in higher numbers than younger bucks. Researchers concluded that Texas’ warm and dry climate made it difficult for the bacteria to survive in our state.WHAT DOES THIS ENTIRE RESEARCH MEAN?First, managing for mature, trophy bucks is not very efficient because many bucks will die each year of natural causes. To illustrate this, let’s start with a population of 100 six-month-old buck fawns. Our buck mortality research indicates that an average of 46 percent of buck fawns will die of natural causes from December-May, reducing the buck population to only 54 1.5-year-old bucks. Our data shows that an average of 37 percent of 1.5-year-old bucks will die of natural causes so, after the second year the buck population has decreased to only 34 2.5-year-old bucks. Our research indicates that an average of 7 percent of 2.5-year-old bucks die each year, knocking the population down to 32 3.5-year-old bucks. We found that 20 percent of 3.5-year-old bucks die of natural causes, so we are now left with 26 4.5-year-old bucks. Natural mortality in 4.5-year-old bucks is the lowest of any age class (1 percent) and all 26 bucks survive to 5.5-years-old. Of the 26 5.5-year-old bucks, 6 percent will die before reaching 6.5-years-old. Therefore, only 24 bucks, out of the original 100-buck fawns, will survive to 6.5-years-old, the age at which antler growth peaks. This shockingly high rate of natural mortality means that without any hunting at all, 76 of 100 buck fawns will die before 6.5-years-old! Ranch owners, managers, and hunters interested in managing for mature, trophy bucks need to realize that in south Texas the majority of bucks will die of natural causes before reaching maturity.WHAT CAN BE DONE TO INCREASE BUCK SURVIVAL?What can ranchers and managers do to increase buck survival, especially during the post-rut? Past research clearly shows that intensive coyote control methods can increase fawn survival. Therefore, coyotes should be removed prior to and during the peak fawning months of June-August.Another solution is to increase the quantity and quality of the nutrition available to bucks from January-March through supplemental feeding. The nutritional level of the natural vegetation reaches a low point during late winter, further stressing bucks that are already worn out from participating in the rut. These bucks then have to suffer through late winter eating browse that is often low in nutrition. Not until spring “green-up” are these bucks able to regain the weight lost during the previous rut. Improving nutrition results in higher buck survival.Join me next week when we learn about the antler cycle. Posted by Dr. Mickey W. Hellickson Photo by Hardy Jackson

          Comment

            #20
            Originally posted by Walker View Post
            Yep, 7.5 is just about optimum for a trophy.
            Same. My favorite buck ever ( not my largest scorer) was aged at 7.5. Heavy 14 Pt. on a 8 frame.

            Comment

              #21
              I think most of the big deer that are killed in my area are 4 or 5 when they’re aged. Kind of interesting that there’s such a difference. I’ve always heard that 7 and older start going down hill. Doesn’t mean that’s true, of course, but I’ve seen older deer go downhill that dang sure weren’t 10.

              I keep quite a few cameras out and I have a hard time tracking bucks for more than a couple of years. Seems like they just come and go sometimes. I have one that I’ve watched for 4 years but most of them seem to be somewhat transient. It’s impressive that y’all can follow the same deer for so long. What are y’all putting your cameras on to get such consistent pics of the same deer?

              Comment

                #22
                Originally posted by Razrbk89 View Post
                I think most of the big deer that are killed in my area are 4 or 5 when they’re aged. Kind of interesting that there’s such a difference. I’ve always heard that 7 and older start going down hill. Doesn’t mean that’s true, of course, but I’ve seen older deer go downhill that dang sure weren’t 10.

                I keep quite a few cameras out and I have a hard time tracking bucks for more than a couple of years. Seems like they just come and go sometimes. I have one that I’ve watched for 4 years but most of them seem to be somewhat transient. It’s impressive that y’all can follow the same deer for so long. What are y’all putting your cameras on to get such consistent pics of the same deer?
                This.

                doesn't location add into the equation?
                Hill country vs S. Texas vs E. Texas vs. W. Texas?

                Comment

                  #23
                  On a well managed place YES

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Yes.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                      #25
                      Would be interesting. A fairly large percentage of hunters make mistakes because they can't age a 5 yo that well. Look at some of the age answers on the game management page for when people are asking how old.

                      I personally do pretty well with saying 5. If I have any doubt, I let it walk. However, with deer older than that, with me, it is purely a guess. I cannot (or better stated have not had to) try to age a deer to a certain year after 5 or 6.....I would be able to learn if required, but a lot of deer would be getting passes for several years until I was comfortable with it.

                      Just my $.02.

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                        #26
                        We have a managed HF place. Our deer are bigger at 6.5 than 5.5.

                        If shooting bucks at 5, you are not seeing the full potential of the bucks.

                        We don't see much of a jump from 6.5 to 7.5 to 8.5

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Chance Love View Post
                          5 years old has been the "new young" for 20 years. We target 8 years on trophies. We MIGHT shoot a 7 year old but that would be pretty rare and would need some kind of weird circumstances to make us want to do that. As far as management and culls, there are just too many factors to list here. But most will be older deer.
                          This right here, word for word.

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                            #28
                            Too many variables IMO, if you hunt large property or have control via a HF then I can see the benefits of letting them get older than 5. Smaller properties or in areas with high pressure its a crap shoot IMO. You can gamble on trying to let them get that much age on them and possibly never see one that old. The "trophy" age is subjective to the area and situation. For example, my place in Houston county, we have hunted this property or close to 30 yrs and ran cameras for the past 15 or so. We have only seen a small handful of 5yr old+ deer. We do not shoot hardly any deer off it, and still don't see the age. Is it because they die of natural causes, is it because of predators, maybe hunting pressure on surrounding properties, I cannot answer that. But if we set our standards for the 5yr old plus idea then we would never kill a buck. My standard for that property is 4.5 or older, using that standard I have only killed 3 bucks since 2006 of the property.

                            Comment

                              #29
                              I was on a hunt last week and killed a 10 year old 175", last year on the same place I shot a 9 year old 183" net book typical. Both bucks had their best set of antlers. We killed 5 trophy bucks on that hunt and the youngest buck was 8 years old, backed up with years worth of pictures/video of each deer. But they have been doing this for decades and have a long pipeline of old deer.

                              I've seen some deer have their best antlers at 5 and others at 10. On a deer lease its hard to get people to hold off on deer that are 6 or older

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Originally posted by MAP View Post
                                On a deer lease its hard to get people to hold off on deer that are 6 or older
                                There is no doubt about that. We have 20 hunters and its like herding cats most times. I would like to see us go to 7 on trophies and management bucks but don't think our group has the stomach for it.

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