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Pass-through, is it needed?

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    #46
    I don’t shoot long range, so my solution to all this was an ultra heavy setup. I ran my arrows to a 710 grain weight, and almost all of it is insert and broadhead weight.

    I went with an Ashby style single bevel, fixed blade broadhead. The effect was an absolute freight train of destruction. My buck this year was 2.5-3 yards from the base of my tree and at a trot. My arrow entered just left of the spine, exited just right of the bottom of the sternum, wrecked the lungs/heart, and broke the offside femur just above the ball of the knee on the way out. I’m sold....

    I was really worried about the trajectory change when I first started down this road, but started checking my notes... and I haven’t shot a deer past 22 yards in the last 6 years. At 25 yards, the swap from 320-ish to 710 was an inch different. If I was willing to push past 50 yard shots, I may not be comfortable at these weights. At 30 yards and under, I am absolutely sold.

    On a side note, my bow got REALLY quiet when it started throwing such heavy arrows. It is extremely noticeable how much quieter it is. I expect that, over time, I will also notice less jumping of the string due to the reduced noise.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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      #47
      I love it when you guys get all science-y. Start quoting the Laws of Thermodynamics to me and I just swoon, especially that law zero!

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        #48
        Speed

        Originally posted by enewman View Post
        For a compound I have tested to a 1500gr. no loss in KE
        What speed was the 1500 gr arrow ?

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          #49
          The original question was whether a pass through is needed.

          My thought is....The thing that kills a deer is blood loss, lung damage to prevent oxygenating blood, heart damage to stop pumping blood, or a hit the central nervous system.

          I don't think "hydrostaic shock" has part in this as arrows travel too slowly and a sharp broadhead slices through instead of punching through like a bullet. A CNS shot is unlikley unless you hit the spine or brain. Not what I'm usually shooting at.

          That leaves blood loss, heart, or lung. For these you need the arrow get in, go through, and if possible get out the other side. The most important thing to achieve this with any arrow is a sharp broadhead with modest KE or Momentum (whichever is most important) to get the job done.

          A pass through assures the broadhead cuts everything it was pointed at and thus maximizes blood loss. It also allows blood out 2 holes instead of one, assures the holes are not plugged by the arrow, and thus helps tracking.

          If a long bow can shoot an arrow with adequate KE or MOM to do the job, any compound ever made needs only hit the target.

          In my compound days I don't recall ever NOT getting a pass through. Even then I failed to find a few animals over the years. As a newb (with my MOST AWESOME BOB LEE recurve) I am 2 for 2 and did not get a "complete pass through" either time. The arrow was just sticking out the other side about 1/2 way. I need to sharpen better.
          Last edited by SJP51; 03-27-2021, 05:53 AM.

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            #50
            Originally posted by 12ring View Post
            What speed was the 1500 gr arrow ?
            reckoning 35. 69lbs 26.75" draw.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by enewman; 03-27-2021, 05:53 AM.

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              #51
              Originally posted by 12ring View Post
              What speed was the 1500 gr arrow ?
              sorry, bad picture. Here is a better one.
              Attached Files

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                #52
                I dont think one NEEDS a pass through, but I am sure hoping for one every time I let it fly!

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                  #53
                  It’s all about a big wound channel, pass through is all 90’s. Like shooting a deer with a needle. Same reason 30-06 will always be greater than the 6.5 creedmore.

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                    #54
                    https://www.deerassociation.com/heav...-deer-hunting/

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                      #55
                      Dang, enewman, all this time I thought you were a momentum proponent?

                      I don't care which one anybody pushes. If you aren't accurate and broadhead is dull, they both are mute points. Sticking with what works for me.
                      Last edited by lovemylegacy; 05-20-2021, 12:52 PM.

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                        #56
                        Picture of chart in post #51 shows that arrow weight only changes KE slightly from lightest 373 to heaviest 1500 arrow (about a 6% increase). Same chart momentum from lightest to heaviest more than doubles. This tells us that the heavier arrow is much harder to stop. Even if you speed the lighter arrow up to match KE you will still have better results with heavier arrow. I've shot many different arrow weights at many animals in my 40+ years of bowhunting and have come to the conclusion that heavier arrows give better results and more humane lethality.

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                          #57
                          Well this thread died a slow death

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by enewman View Post
                            A heavier object will. But I'm matching the momentum. What I'm looking at is proving that momentum is not what causes penetration.

                            My test will be with one arrow at 400gr +/-5. The second arrow will be in the low 600gr. Not sure where yet, trying to match FOC. To match would mean the heavier arrow will have less KE.

                            Looking at physics and the test follows physics, what I will be showing That KE is what causes penetration, not momentum. It will also show that most people say that momentum built from mass will out penetrate momentum built on velocity is wrong.

                            I don't care which way the test comes out. Either way, one side will be happy, and the other side will be ******.

                            The side that will be ****** will also be the side that will do its best to show that I'm stupid. But I already have them fooled. I already know I'm stupid. hehehehehe.
                            You said you don’t care either way, but reading all your posts say other wise.

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                              #59
                              Well to answer OP question. I don't think it is needed, but I prefer it. A pass through the vitals is always easier to find, especially in a Pineywoods thicket.

                              I don't get the idea behind not having a pass through, but hey, Im just one man.

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                                #60
                                When younger I was in Navy. I was at a bar with an old SEAL who was speaking to us on knives..

                                He mentioned seeing guys that had fought with machetes, chopping each other dozens of times prior to a fight ending. His point was: cuts that hit muscle and bone do little to stop folks until they simply get exhausted from too much blood loss to continue. This can take too long.

                                Deep wounds to vital organs kill. Often by shock. So the goal is to have the largest volume of "cut" sweeping through "vital organ" area, which are, depending on area, ~2-5" deep in humans in decent condition. Kabar is ~7" for example.

                                With this concept, arrow pass through is actually wasteful. The perfect broadhead would be one that was so big it lost all energy/momentum and passed only up to the far muscle wall or ribs, and never exited at all. Hard to make that happen though, right? So it seems like a good theory is "go deep or go home."

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