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Old 09-18-2022, 08:24 PM   #1
jaspermac
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Default Screwed by outfitter…any recourse?

Booked a hunt in Canada in 2019 to hunt in 2020. Covid hit and no hunting in 2020-2022. Been communicating about rebooking or him reimbursing our money then ghosted us in July. $14,000 plus airline tickets down the drain. Apparently he owed a lot of money and went bankrupt. We have contacted the guide association that he was a member of but nothing yet.

Anyone have any advice?
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:26 PM   #2
Backwoods101
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Ouch


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Old 09-18-2022, 08:27 PM   #3
175gr7.62
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You’ve paid him $14k already?


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Old 09-18-2022, 08:30 PM   #4
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Wow. I have no idea what you can do legally, but bankrupt is broke. Squeeze that tomato all you want to, your just getting tomato juice.
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:31 PM   #5
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Default Screwed by outfitter…any recourse?

How did y’all pay him ? Maybe y’all can get him for fraud?
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:37 PM   #6
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File a theft claim against him. You won't get anything but you may can get an injunction against him where if he comes into some cash you'd get some.
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:40 PM   #7
Death from Above
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Drive to Canada one a year. Pull oil plug and drive back. Gonna be out some more money but i bet it will be a joyful drive ….


Hate to read these type threads and for 14k…people get cut lol
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:42 PM   #8
black dallas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaspermac View Post
Booked a hunt in Canada in 2019 to hunt in 2020. Covid hit and no hunting in 2020-2022. Been communicating about rebooking or him reimbursing our money then ghosted us in July. $14,000 plus airline tickets down the drain. Apparently he owed a lot of money and went bankrupt. We have contacted the guide association that he was a member of but nothing yet.

Anyone have any advice?
wow man. that sucks
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:52 PM   #9
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I have never sent that much money to my outfitter in Africa before a hunt. Good luck!
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:53 PM   #10
ttaxidermy
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You’ve paid him $14k already?


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^^^^^
I have no idea what to do in this situation..
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:54 PM   #11
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It’s worth a phone call to an attorney. If he actually filed bankruptcy and didn’t just shut down his business, people that “lent” him money are entitled to the proceeds from auctioning off the equipment his company owned. Might not be anything, might be side by sides, trucks, boats, a warehouse, etc. If he set his business up correctly, you won’t be entitled to any of his personal property.
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:54 PM   #12
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Sorry about that. 14K is a lot to pre pay.
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:55 PM   #13
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Just to clarify, it was a 4 man hunt and we mailed checks.
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:55 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mudslinger View Post
I have never sent that much money to my outfitter in Africa before a hunt. Good luck!
yeah, I wouldn't either. No need for that much up front, except maybe a house?
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Old 09-18-2022, 08:57 PM   #15
1riot1ranger
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sounds like an unsuccessful hunt. why did you lose airfare? Was he buying airline tickets with the money? Most airlines probably won't refund but they will let you have a credit against a future trip.
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:00 PM   #16
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Just to clarify, it was a 4 man hunt and we mailed checks.
So you’re out $3500, along with 3 buddies?
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:00 PM   #17
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Unfortunately. Canadian courts will not support a gringo trying a Canadian. Seems like a scam from the beginning.
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:04 PM   #18
bullets13
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Geez, that sucks. Glad to know the $14k is split four ways at least. Although I guess that means it sucks for four guys instead of one.
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:05 PM   #19
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Unfortunately. Canadian courts will not support a gringo trying a Canadian. Seems like a scam from the beginning.
Why would it seem like a scam? The way I read it, he booked the hunt, then covid hit. You couldn’t travel to Canada during covid, Canada’s own citizens couldn’t get home. The outfitter had no income for 2yrs and I’m sure debts that were owed. Lenders didn’t care he had no clients able to get to his location. Bam, he’s broke.
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:06 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by gatorgrizz27 View Post
It’s worth a phone call to an attorney. If he actually filed bankruptcy and didn’t just shut down his business, people that “lent” him money are entitled to the proceeds from auctioning off the equipment his company owned. Might not be anything, might be side by sides, trucks, boats, a warehouse, etc. If he set his business up correctly, you won’t be entitled to any of his personal property.
& get a lien recorded
“” Personal Property Security Act. The Personal Property Security Act refers to each of the statutes passed by the common law provinces and territories of Canada. All Canadian provinces have adopted the Personal Property Security Act””
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:08 PM   #21
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Most outfitters work off the advance money, so that $14K was spent some time ago. It sucks but probably no recourse if he filed for bankruptcy.
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:19 PM   #22
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I'd hate to be on either end of that. I'd hate to lose that much without some kind of compensation. On the other hand, that guide had likely had zero income for two years, and had to file for bankruptcy. Hate that he quit communicating, but there is probably nothing he can say that will help. He likely has already lost any and everything of value that he had.
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:36 PM   #23
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Default Screwed by outfitter…any recourse?

You contact the court and get put on the list of folks that he owes money to.


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Old 09-18-2022, 09:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Benno View Post
Why would it seem like a scam? The way I read it, he booked the hunt, then covid hit. You couldn’t travel to Canada during covid, Canada’s own citizens couldn’t get home. The outfitter had no income for 2yrs and I’m sure debts that were owed. Lenders didn’t care he had no clients able to get to his location. Bam, he’s broke.


Would you send $14k to an unknown outfit? If so, we are different people.
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:53 PM   #25
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Man sorry to hear bud that sux. Same thing ish happened to me. Bought a fishing trip to fly into Vanvouver then biplane to lodge in 20’ for four and booked that first week September. Lodge cancelled it last minute from Covid bs. Rebooked per lodge recommendation for Sept 21’. Dude cancelled two weeks prior saying border would or was shut down but it opened as we knew it would. Rebooked again, no doubt 110% no bs gonna go Sept 2-8 a couple of weeks ago. All good til I called this dik (email actually, the dude or lodge never took calls or called back when I tried) cancelled again two weeks before the trip because he said Covid bs was to bad up there. I then told him dude this bullchit and I let the organization know this past time and apparently this lodge did it as well to whomever bought the same trip at a function up in Dallas this year. Cancelled on them last minute. Shall see what happens now but hope it’s not the same outfitter that may book hunts and fishing trips too. If so you know more about him filing bankruptcy than I do. PM me his name if you don’t mind or if you feel comfortable doing so. Best of luck to you and you’re buddies too.

Last edited by Texashookset; 09-18-2022 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 09-18-2022, 09:59 PM   #26
Ætheling
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Default Screwed by outfitter…any recourse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobc View Post
You contact the court and get put on the list of folks that he owes money to.


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This. Canadian police report along with your local. You’ll probably need to get a Canadian lawyer involved. You might get all, none or some of your money back but it will probably be a long time coming. Spending your deposit and not producing a hunt is still theft. Bankruptcy court doesn’t protect theft. Hopefully a lien can be placed on his future wages.


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Old 09-18-2022, 10:31 PM   #27
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Did the outfitter provide any paperwork that outlined the money paid & circumstances for reimbursement, etc?
You get paid receipt? Just wondering if you have all the proof of payment, & any associated paperwork linking outfitter to the issue so when or if you take legal course you got it all in order
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Old 09-18-2022, 11:14 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Benno View Post
Why would it seem like a scam? The way I read it, he booked the hunt, then covid hit. You couldn’t travel to Canada during covid, Canada’s own citizens couldn’t get home. The outfitter had no income for 2yrs and I’m sure debts that were owed. Lenders didn’t care he had no clients able to get to his location. Bam, he’s broke.
Happened to many, many outfitters.
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Old 09-18-2022, 11:34 PM   #29
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I hate to say it but for just $3500 and it being out of country it’s not worth it. Just chalk it up to lesson learned. In the future always pay with a cc that offers protection.
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Old 09-18-2022, 11:43 PM   #30
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Would you send $14k to an unknown outfit? If so, we are different people.
Not at all, but it doesn’t sound like a scam. Sounds like a crappy deal for all parties involved.
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Old 09-19-2022, 08:48 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Death from Above View Post
Drive to Canada one a year. Pull oil plug and drive back. Gonna be out some more money but i bet it will be a joyful drive ….


Hate to read these type threads and for 14k…people get cut lol
While it may not be feasible, I think this is probably the best option of getting something out of the deal.
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Old 09-19-2022, 09:25 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Death from Above View Post
Drive to Canada one a year. Pull oil plug and drive back. Gonna be out some more money but i bet it will be a joyful drive ….


Hate to read these type threads and for 14k…people get cut lol
This isn't right. Maybe if pulling drain plug on Canadian officials that kept shutting everything down but not the outfitter.

Can you guys explain how outfitters should have been running their business pre-covid (before anyone saw covid BS coming)?
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Old 09-19-2022, 09:35 AM   #33
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I would check with Canadian law, he may of filed for chapter reorganization. Just because he bankrupted doesn’t mean he didn’t reopen under another name.
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Old 09-19-2022, 09:45 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by RiverRat1 View Post
This isn't right. Maybe if pulling drain plug on Canadian officials that kept shutting everything down but not the outfitter.

Can you guys explain how outfitters should have been running their business pre-covid (before anyone saw covid BS coming)?
Not sure anyone could’ve foreseen but Canada being full blown socialist wanted to shut everyone down taking out the mom and pops leaving only government run/involved big business in place. Text book play book agenda chit right there. US leaders wanted/want the same.

Anyhoo to get back on subject and off my political beliefs I understand how outfitters use future monies to cover real time cost, it’s like mobe charges on bigger dirt/roadway work, standard logistics against future contract work. Same thing on a different scale. But..the outfit I booked is still in business as far as what his emails conveyed and through the org I bought the trip from at the banquet. He’s in the wrong as much as the OP’s guy is for not owning up to it at the very least. Life happens but that’s not the way to handle it by just shutting him out. Man uo and at least acknowledge the reason as to why. He’s just another pos fly by night if he can’t at least give the people an honest answer he took money from the respect of an apology thru a phone call.
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Old 09-19-2022, 09:48 AM   #35
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I would check with Canadian law, he may of filed for chapter reorganization. Just because he bankrupted doesn’t mean he didn’t reopen under another name.
This right here. Dictionary definition of a fly by night no matter if it’s his first time or tenth. Changing entity name only means you screwed somebody.
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Old 09-19-2022, 10:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texashookset View Post
Not sure anyone could’ve foreseen but Canada being full blown socialist wanted to shut everyone down taking out the mom and pops leaving only government run/involved big business in place. Text book play book agenda chit right there. US leaders wanted/want the same.

Anyhoo to get back on subject and off my political beliefs I understand how outfitters use future monies to cover real time cost, it’s like mobe charges on bigger dirt/roadway work, standard logistics against future contract work. Same thing on a different scale. But..the outfit I booked is still in business as far as what his emails conveyed and through the org I bought the trip from at the banquet. He’s in the wrong as much as the OP’s guy is for not owning up to it at the very least. Life happens but that’s not the way to handle it by just shutting him out. Man uo and at least acknowledge the reason as to why. He’s just another pos fly by night if he can’t at least give the people an honest answer he took money from the respect of an apology thru a phone call.
Hard to argue. But once bankrupt do you really care about the companies reputation? And as you said, the government shut him down. He's screwed more than hunters. Should he still call all clients after BK and say sorry while letting them all b!itch him out? This is all assuming he went BK and for reasons out of his control.

If still in business and screwing hunters out of money then go pull drain plugs!
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Old 09-19-2022, 10:36 AM   #37
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Hard to argue. But once bankrupt do you really care about the companies reputation? And as you said, the government shut him down. He's screwed more than hunters. Should he still call all clients after BK and say sorry while letting them all b!itch him out? This is all assuming he went BK and for reasons out of his control.

If still in business and screwing hunters out of money then go pull drain plugs!
I’d take the bitchin but that’s the way I was raised and run my business. Not all phone calls are easy but it’s the right thing to do. Being honest is hard to do, really hard sometimes but it’s the right thing to do.
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Old 09-19-2022, 10:57 AM   #38
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Update....The outfitter (Liard River Outfitters) has insurance so we are filing a claim against his business insurance.

To be an outfitter in Canada you either have to put up a surety bond or buy business insurance to cover loss. The outfitter association is helping us through the process, but they say there are a lot of outfitters that are closing the doors.


We did have a contract signed but it looks like it isn't worth the paper it was written on.
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Old 09-19-2022, 11:28 AM   #39
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Great news bud and good for the outfitter. He is ultimately taking care of y’all in the end.
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Old 09-19-2022, 12:31 PM   #40
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Default Screwed by outfitter…any recourse?

Man, hope you guys get made whole on this deal. Good luck. Going forward, I’d always suggest getting good quality trip insurance on ANY hunt. It’s saved me a couple of times.


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Old 09-19-2022, 02:20 PM   #41
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Best of luck getting your money back!
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Old 09-19-2022, 02:27 PM   #42
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Well good hope yall get something back.
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Old 09-19-2022, 03:12 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaspermac View Post
Update....The outfitter (Liard River Outfitters) has insurance so we are filing a claim against his business insurance.

To be an outfitter in Canada you either have to put up a surety bond or buy business insurance to cover loss. The outfitter association is helping us through the process, but they say there are a lot of outfitters that are closing the doors.


We did have a contract signed but it looks like it isn't worth the paper it was written on.
They indicate why so many are closing? Glad y’all
Have a shot getting your money back.
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Old 09-19-2022, 03:16 PM   #44
Dale Moser
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Trip insurance is pretty cheap in the grand scheme.
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Old 09-19-2022, 03:17 PM   #45
Lynn21
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I might have missed it- did you post the guides name and his co. for all of us to see?
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Old 09-19-2022, 04:59 PM   #46
jaspermac
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Originally Posted by Dale Moser View Post
Trip insurance is pretty cheap in the grand scheme.
We bought insurance through AIG but they denied the claim. I have been on the phone with a lady in India for the last 2 hours.

It was liard River outfitters
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Old 09-19-2022, 06:01 PM   #47
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Trip insurance is pretty cheap in the grand scheme.
We are in wedding venue business and wedding cancellation insurance denied claims due to Covid "pandemic"......

as for OP, as stated before bankrupt is bankrupt and likely zero legal recourse and definitely none worth the money you are out individually.

Friends finally got their deposits back on Chandeleur Island trip on the VI, we had great trip before but evidently things have changed there.........
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Old 09-19-2022, 10:45 PM   #48
ken
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Originally Posted by jaspermac View Post
Update....The outfitter (Liard River Outfitters) has insurance so we are filing a claim against his business insurance.

To be an outfitter in Canada you either have to put up a surety bond or buy business insurance to cover loss. The outfitter association is helping us through the process, but they say there are a lot of outfitters that are closing the doors.


We did have a contract signed but it looks like it isn't worth the paper it was written on.
Curious on the wording in your contract. Covid created an interesting situation regarding hunting contracts. Canadian outfitters were willing and able to provide the contracted hunt, but Americans just couldn't get across the border.
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Old 09-19-2022, 11:03 PM   #49
RiverRat1
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We bought insurance through AIG but they denied the claim. I have been on the phone with a lady in India for the last 2 hours.

It was liard River outfitters
Why did AIG deny claim?
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Old 09-20-2022, 01:07 PM   #50
jaspermac
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Why did AIG deny claim?
I’m not really sure and they aren’t sure either. They thought I cancelled the trip, which I actually did when he closed up shop. It’s been a mess for sure
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