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Old 01-21-2023, 02:34 PM   #1
Kirby86
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Default NEED YOUR SUPPORT - Public Hunting Program Changes

Ladies and Gentlemen,


This is aimed at those of you who participate in the Public Hunt draw system here in Texas. If you've participated in the draw system you will have undoubtedly noticed that the draw odds have decreased over time.

The draw system does not require a license to enter. But what you may not realize is that the system does not require non-residents to have a license to apply either.

Oklahoma requires the purchase of either a 5 day non-resident hunting license or a controlled hunt license for the entire season to enter their public hunt drawings, such as MCAAP. New Mexico requires the full fee up front and then refunds a large portion of it if you aren't drawn.

Requiring a license PRIOR to entering the draw is only leveling the playing field for residents, and would also increase revenue while making sure that there is at least some level of "skin in the game".

Both myself, Mr. Public, and several others are asking that you copy the template provided in the following comment, write in your name and email it to Kevin.Mote@Tpwd.Texas.gov
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Old 01-21-2023, 02:35 PM   #2
Kirby86
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Copy and Paste in your email:

Kevin Mote
Program Director, Private Lands and Public Hunting
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
(512) 389-4395 Office
kevin.mote@tpwd.texas.gov

Dear Mr. Mote,

I, (Your Name Here), would like to add my support for the following changes to the current Texas Public Hunt System to protect the hunting opportunities of native resident Texans.

1) Require the purchase of a hunting license for non-resident hunters prior to participating in any of the TPWD online draw hunts. As it currently stands, New Mexico and Oklahoma both require the purchase of a resident or non-resident hunting license before participating in their public hunt system.

2) Require the purchase of a hunting license for resident hunters prior to participating in any of the TPWD online draw hunts. This may be more difficult to enact due to new license sales dates. However, it has been demonstrated in other entities that conduct public hunt drawings (example: U.S. Army Corp of Engineers) that anti-hunting groups have put in for drawings in order to deny access to hunters. Requiring a hunting license and the subsequent hunterís safety course requirement has shown to be a barrier to such actions.

These simple actions would accomplish protecting the rights of resident hunters while also generating significantly more revenue for TPWD. Please take these changes into consideration.
Respectfully,
(Your Name Here)
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Old 01-21-2023, 02:37 PM   #3
RiverRat00
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Is #2 requiring all Texans who apply also buy a hunting license prior to getting drawn?

If so, I agree with #1 but not with #2 although I see why you want #2..


#2 is good if you have a private place to hunt and you still have to buy a hunting license because you will use it for private land if your not selected on a draw hunt but if your like many that don't hunt private land then its not worth it for us that don't hunt unless selected for a draw hunt.



Would also add that they should add some porta potties in hunt areas for hunters, especially on youth hunts

Last edited by RiverRat00; 01-21-2023 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 01-21-2023, 02:54 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRat00 View Post
Is #2 requiring all Texans who apply also buy a hunting license prior to getting drawn?

If so, I agree with #1 but not with #2 although I see why you want #2..


#2 is good if you have a private place to hunt and you still have to buy a hunting license because you will use it for private land if your not selected on a draw hunt but if your like many that don't hunt private land then its not worth it for us that don't hunt unless selected for a draw hunt.
Every other state requires that and its $25. You're gonna buy it anyway if you get drawn. Small price to pay to keep anti-hunters off the drawing. As mentioned in the letter, anti-hunters have been putting in for public hunt drawings on several Corp of Engineer properties that I know of just in North Texas alone. They had to start requiring proof of a hunting license to counteract that, unfortunately.

Last edited by Kirby86; 01-21-2023 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 01-21-2023, 02:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby86 View Post
Every other state requires that and its $25. You're gonna buy it anyway if you get drawn. Small price to pay to keep anti-hunters off the drawing. As mentioned in the letter, anti-hunters have been putting in for public hunt drawings on several Corp of Engineer properties that I know of just in North Texas alone. They had to start requiring proof of a hunting license to counteract that, unfortunately.
Although I donít participate in the draws, I agree with this. ^^^
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Old 01-21-2023, 03:11 PM   #6
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Done
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Old 01-21-2023, 03:14 PM   #7
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Is Texas going to allocate a certain percentage of their tags to a non resident pool?
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Old 01-21-2023, 03:16 PM   #8
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I agree, the only aspect I can think of is that the draw typically comes out in July but license sales for the upcoming year do not go on sale till September. Maybe license sales could happen sooner?
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Old 01-21-2023, 03:19 PM   #9
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Also, thanks for putting something like this together. I would much rather this happen sooner before it really gets out of hand with more and more nonresidents applying for such a cheap draw system with the opportunity to go after everything from Nilgai, Orynx, deer, alligator, etc.. that other states don't have
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Old 01-21-2023, 03:21 PM   #10
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#3 only allow up to 10% of draw permits awarded to NR hunters. Other states do it so why shouldn’t Texas

Honestly if they raised application prices or only allowed one app per category and required a license prior to applying it would knock down the ridiculous odds a bit.

Last edited by diamond10x; 01-21-2023 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 01-21-2023, 03:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond10x View Post
#3 only allow up to 10% of draw permits awarded to NR hunters. Other states do it so why shouldn’t Texas

Honestly if they raised application prices or only allowed one app per category and required a license prior to applying it would knock down the ridiculous odds a bit.
IN Kirby!

Agree with the 90/10 rule since other states are doing it anyway. Don’t agree with the one per category though.
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Old 01-21-2023, 03:54 PM   #12
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Do you think 10% of the drawn Hunter's are from out of state. I wouldn't think so but don't know for sure. Are those stats somewhere? I get tired of putting all these miles on my truck for a chance for a standby. Why couldn't tpwd have standby already selected like pending seconding draw. Saying standby first, second, third, fourth etc and when tpwd gets contacted someone is not going to make the hunt the standby 1 would be contacted. If they can't attend then go to next standby etc. if you refused it you would not lose your preference points unless you go on the hunt. This sure would save me money but I would sure miss visiting with my standby buddies.
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Old 01-21-2023, 04:59 PM   #13
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For your email submittal

Subject Title - Request for Consideration: Texas Draw Hunts
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Old 01-21-2023, 05:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby86 View Post
Every other state requires that and its $25.
Just to be clear, your argument is that "every other state" besides Texas required out of state hunters to purchase a hunting license prior to submitting an application for draw tags?
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Old 01-21-2023, 05:29 PM   #15
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Completely agree.
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Old 01-21-2023, 05:30 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by kae006 View Post
Just to be clear, your argument is that "every other state" besides Texas required out of state hunters to purchase a hunting license prior to submitting an application for draw tags?
Some states require it, it is simply a reference to other states requirements.
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Old 01-21-2023, 05:40 PM   #17
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Why not add a fee for out of state applicants to participate in the Texas draw program, or a higher price to purchase the permit once drawn. I do agree that with your philosophy that out of state people need to pay more.
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Old 01-21-2023, 05:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by kae006 View Post
Just to be clear, your argument is that "every other state" besides Texas required out of state hunters to purchase a hunting license prior to submitting an application for draw tags?
I think the stronger argument is that several other states add the cost of the license and permits to the draw fees on the front end, and refund all but processing fees if the hunter is not drawn.

That changes everything. It will make non residents pony up $300 + and residents add the cost of a hunting license at the time of applying. Since none of the draws occur before Aug. 15 the additional fee will purchase the license for the year only if drawn.

Makes great sense to me. That will actually start making everyones accrued points actually have value, and show progress towards specific hunts.

Thanks to the OP and Mr. Public for driving this
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Old 01-21-2023, 05:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by T-roy66 View Post
Why not add a fee for out of state applicants to participate in the Texas draw program, or a higher price to purchase the permit once drawn. I do agree that with your philosophy that out of state people need to pay more.
Non-residents do pay significantly more for their licenses than residents do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowhuntntxn View Post
I think the stronger argument is that several other states add the cost of the license and permits to the draw fees on the front end, and refund all but processing fees if the hunter is not drawn....

Makes great sense to me. That will actually start making everyones accrued points actually have value, and show progress towards specific hunts.
Completely agree with this thought process and justification.
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Old 01-21-2023, 06:28 PM   #20
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I'm good with all them upfront fees and such. Specially if they put that revenue into acquiring more hunting areas through the private/public lease and walk-in program. That HAS to be a bigger push from tpwd.
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Old 01-21-2023, 06:47 PM   #21
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I’m in. I agree, they should have some skin in the game.
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Old 01-21-2023, 08:54 PM   #22
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4. Use the dang proceeds to actually buy more land.
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Old 01-21-2023, 09:03 PM   #23
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Sounds logical, compared to most of western state hunts.
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Old 01-22-2023, 12:44 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond10x View Post
#3 only allow up to 10% of draw permits awarded to NR hunters. Other states do it so why shouldnít Texas

Honestly if they raised application prices or only allowed one app per category and required a license prior to applying it would knock down the ridiculous odds a bit.
I agree with this for New Mexico residents.
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Old 01-22-2023, 08:04 AM   #25
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How do you copy and paste without the green background?
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Old 01-22-2023, 08:21 AM   #26
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How do you copy and paste without the green background?
I ended up copy/pasting to a Word document then switch to text only. Then copy/paste that to the email.
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Old 01-22-2023, 08:33 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by texastrouthunte View Post
I agree, the only aspect I can think of is that the draw typically comes out in July but license sales for the upcoming year do not go on sale till September. Maybe license sales could happen sooner?

New licenses go on sale August 15th.

Bisch


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Old 01-22-2023, 11:04 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paycheck View Post
How do you copy and paste without the green background?

Copy paste, but change the text background color to no color(white).

Or send with green background if anything, itíll be a signature green screen theme.


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Old 01-22-2023, 11:37 AM   #29
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Default NEED YOUR SUPPORT - Public Hunting Program Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond10x View Post
#3 only allow up to 10% of draw permits awarded to NR hunters. Other states do it so why shouldnít Texas

Honestly if they raised application prices or only allowed one app per category and required a license prior to applying it would knock down the ridiculous odds a bit.

I understand that. However, that is not the changes we are seeking at this time.

We must know the percentage of non resident (NR)applicants first, prior to advocating for a 90/10.

If the percentage of NR is less than 10%, letís say 2%.

We certainly would not want to allocate 10% of permits for NR. That would be counterproductive for this movement.

Now, with the recent broadcasting of some premier destinations within the Texas public draw hunt opportunities, on large platforms such as YouTube, one can expect that the number of NR applications will increase, possibly tremendously increase for some of these particular draw hunts.

I personally feel advocating for a 90/10 at this time is likely not necessary. However, it is difficult to predict the amount of time or years it could take to see TPWD make adjustments as such.


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Last edited by Mr. Public; 01-22-2023 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 01-22-2023, 12:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowhuntntxn View Post
I think the stronger argument is that several other states add the cost of the license and permits to the draw fees on the front end, and refund all but processing fees if the hunter is not drawn.

That changes everything. It will make non residents pony up $300 + and residents add the cost of a hunting license at the time of applying. Since none of the draws occur before Aug. 15 the additional fee will purchase the license for the year only if drawn.

Makes great sense to me. That will actually start making everyones accrued points actually have value, and show progress towards specific hunts.

Thanks to the OP and Mr. Public for driving this
I agree, but NM doesn't reimburse the general hunting license cost and habitat stamp or whatever it is....you are stuck with that even if you don't draw. Only thing reimbursed is the deer or elk tag that you purchased. (As far as I remember...usually get the deer tag fee back, but not the other)

Last edited by chehunt; 01-22-2023 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 01-22-2023, 01:07 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Public View Post
I understand that. However, that is not the changes we are seeking at this time.

We must know the percentage of non resident (NR)applicants first, prior to advocating for a 90/10.

If the percentage of NR is less than 10%, let’s say 2%.

We certainly would not want to allocate 10% of permits for NR. That would be counterproductive for this movement.

Now, with the recent broadcasting of some premier destinations within the Texas public draw hunt opportunities, on large platforms such as YouTube, one can expect that the number of NR applications will increase, possibly tremendously increase for some of these particular draw hunts.

I personally feel advocating for a 90/10 at this time is likely not necessary. However, it is difficult to predict the amount of time or years it could take to see TPWD make adjustments as such.


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The 90/10 was more a sarcastic stab at the states who have recently changed allocations and use the line of “well other states do it”. Hence the big grinning smile at the end.

In all reality I don’t think there will be a NR issue for the foreseeable future just from the reputation and stigma that Texas has when it comes to hunting.

If leveling the playing field and increasing odds is the goal, in my opinion, this doesn’t really do much other than generate more revenue for the state. I am totally on board with requiring purchasing a license and having a hunter ed completed before applying but my gut says most that apply already have that.

Also I don’t know of a state that refunds licenses and stamps if unsuccessful in the draw. They only refund tag or permit costs that are fronted. If I’m reading it right, y’all are saying the state could refund license fees?

Last edited by diamond10x; 01-22-2023 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 01-22-2023, 01:57 PM   #32
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I agree with 1 and 2.
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Old 01-22-2023, 02:20 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by chehunt View Post
I agree, but NM doesn't reimburse the general hunting license cost and habitat stamp or whatever it is....you are stuck with that even if you don't draw. Only thing reimbursed is the deer or elk tag that you purchased. (As far as I remember...usually get the deer tag fee back, but not the other)
https://www.iowadnr.gov/hunting/nonr...cation-process

Iowa refunds all but the cost of a preference point + processing fee. All license and tag fees are refunded if not successful. So the hunter that fronts $644 will receive over $500 back.

Why and/or how could a state justify making you buy a license that isnt usable?
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Old 01-22-2023, 02:25 PM   #34
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I wrote to them earlier right after the survey came out saying they need to increase application costs for non-residents and reduce the amount of applications per category. I doubt anything will come of it. Texas doesn’t care about the public land hunter
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Old 01-22-2023, 02:26 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowhuntntxn View Post
https://www.iowadnr.gov/hunting/nonr...cation-process

Iowa refunds all but the cost of a preference point + processing fee. All license and tag fees are refunded if not successful. So the hunter that fronts $644 will receive over $500 back.

Why and/or how could a state justify making you buy a license that isnt usable?
I havenít come across a state that has a hunting license that isnít useful. Tx for example, the license allows you to hunt everything that doesnít require a tag such as squirrels, rabbits, exotics, etc.
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Old 01-22-2023, 03:13 PM   #36
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Yes I’m in on that. I was just at Matador wma for a hard earned 9 year draw and some jerks from out of state were there and nicely put it was obvious they were not from here. We are blessed to have these hunts…we could probably pull easier if out of staters weren’t filling in for us.
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Old 01-22-2023, 03:17 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by diamond10x View Post
I havenít come across a state that has a hunting license that isnít useful. Tx for example, the license allows you to hunt everything that doesnít require a tag such as squirrels, rabbits, exotics, etc.
Ok. but who is going to drive from here to Iowa to hunt a silly squirrel?

Or who would come here from anywhere to hunt exotics, especially since they are applying for a drawn hunt on public land? if they are coming to hunt private lands sure it would be useful, but then it wouldnt be mucking up the public draw system.
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Old 01-22-2023, 03:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by bowhuntntxn View Post
Ok. but who is going to drive from here to Iowa to hunt a silly squirrel?

Or who would come here from anywhere to hunt exotics, especially since they are applying for a drawn hunt on public land? if they are coming to hunt private lands sure it would be useful, but then it wouldnt be mucking up the public draw system.
It’s still a license allowing you to hunt anything and everything that doesn’t require a tag, whether those animals are of value to you or not is for you to decide. Some it is and some it isn’t.

There’s a lot of “public land westerners” that come down here in the off season to hunt axis deer on private land. I think you’d be surprised at the number that will put in for a public draw just to double up the opportunity of making the drive or flight here especially since they aren’t required to have a license to apply for draws. Not saying it’s 40% of applicants but I would imagine it’s more than just 20 people.

Why would the state refund a hunting license just for an unsuccessful draw? That’s no different than say for example- you aren’t successful in punching a tag so you get a refund or claiming you didn’t go hunting so you deserve a refund.

Last edited by diamond10x; 01-22-2023 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 01-22-2023, 04:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond10x View Post
Itís still a license allowing you to hunt anything and everything that doesnít require a tag, whether those animals are of value to you or not is for you to decide. Some it is and some it isnít.

Thereís a lot of ďpublic land westernersĒ that come down here in the off season to hunt axis deer on private land. I think youíd be surprised at the number that will put in for a public draw just to double up the opportunity of making the drive or flight here especially since they arenít required to have a license to apply for draws. Not saying itís 40% of applicants but I would imagine itís more than just 20 people.

Why would the state refund a hunting license just for an unsuccessful draw? Thatís no different than say for example- you arenít successful in punching a tag so you get a refund or claiming you didnít go hunting so you deserve a refund.

If an out of stater is coming to hunt private they will be buying a license anyway. If they are applying for a public land draw, now all they have to do is pay the application fee.

Other states require the entire fee(license, tags and any other permits required) up front before the draw. And if you are drawn, successful or not, you are getting nothing back.
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Old 01-22-2023, 04:50 PM   #40
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Up to but not exceeding 10percent would be the way to word it. For those interested in that. We dang sure dont want them to get aloted 10 percent of the tags.

Maybe something about only allowing nonresidents to apply for hunts with a certain amount of tags also. Like over 10 or 20. Bighorn and pronghorn come to mind.
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Old 01-22-2023, 05:18 PM   #41
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Default NEED YOUR SUPPORT - Public Hunting Program Changes

If you really want to increase draw odds you should ask to go back to the old way which was to limit the number of applications per category to one.

Or a compromise would be to limit the apps per category to three like they have done for youth hunts.

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Old 01-22-2023, 05:22 PM   #42
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Here a novel idea. If you are fortunate enough to have a lease then don't apply for tpwd hunts. That would give the rest of us better odds of being drawn.
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Old 01-22-2023, 05:27 PM   #43
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Sounds good, I'll send one in
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Old 01-25-2023, 08:28 AM   #44
CrownKiller14
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3) Non Resident opportunities should be limited to 10% or less of all public opportunities. If there are less than 10 tags non residents should not be entitled to a tag. Most states that have public hunting give their residents a greater opportunity than non residents. NM only gives non residents less than 6% of tag allocation. Lets start looking out for the resident hunter.
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Above is what I added to my email.

Heck states like Nm, Co, Wy, Montana have units that doesn't even offer non res tags for high demand species like moose, goats and sheep. Basically all of our tags are high demand. If you look at the application numbers some of our basic whitetail hunts are getting more application than high demand elk units. That's why rule #2 is a must limit participation. If all these non residents had to buy a $300 license application numbers of NR would drop greatly.

Last edited by CrownKiller14; 01-25-2023 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 01-25-2023, 02:40 PM   #45
justletmein
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None of this will make any difference for deer hunts, but could potentially improve some of the more attractive things that other states don't have such as some of our exotics opportunities. I'm sure it's been said already but the stumbling block is that licenses aren't even on sale yet when most of the draw deadlines hit, so they'd have to revamp their whole system and sell hunting licenses or provide some sort of license voucher through the draw system. I doubt they'll be very open minded about uprooting what everyone's become accustomed to. I think the biggest most powerful change would be to limit the applications to one application per category, let people apply for what they really desire and that'll improve the number of unpaid tags as well because people will be more likely to pay for what they've drawn. I'll send in some feedback to that email once I get a minute to sit down with it, are we targeting a certain date deadline or will next week work?
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Old 01-25-2023, 03:05 PM   #46
TxBowHntr
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Originally Posted by justletmein View Post
None of this will make any difference for deer hunts, but could potentially improve some of the more attractive things that other states don't have such as some of our exotics opportunities. I'm sure it's been said already but the stumbling block is that licenses aren't even on sale yet when most of the draw deadlines hit, so they'd have to revamp their whole system and sell hunting licenses or provide some sort of license voucher through the draw system. I doubt they'll be very open minded about uprooting what everyone's become accustomed to. I think the biggest most powerful change would be to limit the applications to one application per category, let people apply for what they really desire and that'll improve the number of unpaid tags as well because people will be more likely to pay for what they've drawn. I'll send in some feedback to that email once I get a minute to sit down with it, are we targeting a certain date deadline or will next week work?
One would think an easy solution to the problem of not having the next season's licenses on sale when the draw is open is to allow the sale of next season's license. I can't think of a reason why this would not be doable or allowed.
Why not allow me to purchase a 2023-2024 license in May/June? Just have the effective dates for the license be for 8/15 on.
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Old 01-25-2023, 03:08 PM   #47
justletmein
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Originally Posted by TxBowHntr View Post
One would think an easy solution to the problem of not having the next season's licenses on sale when the draw is open is to allow the sale of next season's license. I can't think of a reason why this would not be doable or allowed.
Why not allow me to purchase a 2023-2024 license in May/June? Just have the effective dates for the license be for 8/15 on.
Just an administrative headache, but yeah I agree. They could also sell it and just ship when they're available/valid. The e-license may complicate things worse, them programmers are probably busy these days.
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Old 01-25-2023, 08:55 PM   #48
Txfire409
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If you've participated in the draw system you will have undoubtedly noticed that the draw odds have decreased over time.
Not really. I got drawn for four hunts this year thru tpwd.
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Old 01-25-2023, 10:34 PM   #49
Lost10mm
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I got an auto reply. He'll be back Jan 30th.
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Old 01-25-2023, 11:52 PM   #50
Kevin
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Originally Posted by Txfire409 View Post
Not really. I got drawn for four hunts this year thru tpwd.


How many points did you have an what hunts and categories?
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