Muzzle loader questions

[westtexducks]

Planning on pulling a muzzy tag for Colorado this next year either Mule Deer or Elk or possibly both. That said I am on the hunt to acquire a .50 cal muzzle loader, must be Colorado legal. So no sabots, loose powder and iron sites.

Only thing I know for sure is I am going to put this site on it.

https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecommerce/p/wgrs--western-precision-muzzleloading-set-676584

Looking at the CVA line. Any thoughts on which one or a better rifle to look into? Thinking the Accura line, but may settle for the Optima line.

Bullets thinking Federal Bor Lock Trophy copper, or the TC Maxiball, but heard good reviews for Thor bullets

Powder thinking Blackhorn 209, and some flavor of 209 primer. Probably CCI.

[Walker]

TC Maxi's or NoExcuses bullets

[D-BULL]

Always heard Thor was the way to go.

[chillymac]

Black horn 209 is the best powder, my TC Omega likes the Federal Bor Lock, Thor is good also

[Tony Pic]

Have you considered getting a TC Encore with a Muzzleloading barrel?
You can add centerfire barrels down the line. If you hunt with a single shot ML, then the TC Encore is the same. One-shot.
I have a few smoke poles and the CVA Wolf really delivers for the money. Pyrodex and 777 all come in powder form. I have had good success with 90grs of loose Pyrodex behind a TC 350gr MaxiBall at 100yds.

[westtexducks]

Have you considered getting a TC Encore with a Muzzleloading barrel?
You can add centerfire barrels down the line. If you hunt with a single shot ML, then the TC Encore is the same. One-shot.
I have a few smoke poles and the CVA Wolf really delivers for the money. Pyrodex and 777 all come in powder form. I have had good success with 90grs of loose Pyrodex behind a TC 350gr MaxiBall at 100yds.

I have thought about it, I have a TC Encore pistol in .308 and it just doesn't get shot much. I don't think I will really shoot a single shot much if at all. Most of the time I head out the door I grab my .204 or my 7 mag when I have 12 different options I could grab. So really decided to just get a one and done nice one that I will like and use consistently over the next 30-40 years, which is what has me looking at the the higher end CVA rifles.

But realistically my only criterias are want easy to clean and accurate to at least 200 yds on deer sized game.

[Radar]

https://www.mcwhorterrifles.com/50-caliber-lr-muzzleloader/

Not for me, but interesting rifle. Gunwerks has one out now that is similar.

[duckhunter175]

I killed an elk and mule deer during the CO muzzleloader season last year (both were right at 100 yard shots) and I've spent years hunting in areas that were muzzleloader or shotgun only.

The CVA Accura line is a great choice and the stock is head and shoulders above the Optima and the Accura line has the Bergara barrels. I've never owned an Optima so I can't state definitively there is an accuracy difference... but I've owned 4 different Accuras and ALL of them shot excellently.

It is great that Williams got their crap together and made a specific sight set-- before they rolled those out you had to cobble together a set and hope it all lined up or get it all shimmed in place. There is a great gohunt.com article about western open sights. DEFINITELY- get the Lee Shaver sight inserts and find a good combo that works for you as it will greatly increase your range.

As for Accura models- there are a few particulars to keep in mind-- The stock design of the MR and PR models state "not designed for open sights". I have open sights on my MR and it is doable. They ride somewhat low and it takes a little getting used to. BUT the Accura V2 and V2LR have a better stock design for open sights, however some LRs apparently were made without having a front sight hole drilled/tapped. I've never had one that DIDN'T have a front hole but something to keep in mind.

Powder/Bullet/Primer- GET THE BH209 breech plug and run that as your powder! Great velocity and consistent too. Keep in mind that black powder and substitutes are generally measured by volume and not weight. It is much more consistent to measure by weight but BH209 by weight has a higher volume- ie 80gr by weight (which seems to be the sweet spot) is like 110gr by volume. I run winchester 209s for primers.

Bullets- I love Harvester bullets- I ran 300gr sabertooths, my elk was 105 yards and the bullet entered just behind the shoulder, hit a rib and found it perfectly mushroomed on in the off side shoulder under the skin. The muley buck was right at 100 and was a complete pass through, taking one shoulder as well. Neither animal went more than 50 yards.

Good luck!!

[duckhunter175]

Depending on your budget and how frequently you plan to chase muzzleloader tags I would also consider the paramount colorado or a cooper ML.

[westtexducks]

I killed an elk and mule deer during the CO muzzleloader season last year (both were right at 100 yard shots) and I've spent years hunting in areas that were muzzleloader or shotgun only.

The CVA Accura line is a great choice and the stock is head and shoulders above the Optima and the Accura line has the Bergara barrels. I've never owned an Optima so I can't state definitively there is an accuracy difference... but I've owned 4 different Accuras and ALL of them shot excellently.

It is great that Williams got their crap together and made a specific sight set-- before they rolled those out you had to cobble together a set and hope it all lined up or get it all shimmed in place. There is a great gohunt.com article about western open sights. DEFINITELY- get the Lee Shaver sight inserts and find a good combo that works for you as it will greatly increase your range.

As for Accura models- there are a few particulars to keep in mind-- The stock design of the MR and PR models state "not designed for open sights". I have open sights on my MR and it is doable. They ride somewhat low and it takes a little getting used to. BUT the Accura V2 and V2LR have a better stock design for open sights, however some LRs apparently were made without having a front sight hole drilled/tapped. I've never had one that DIDN'T have a front hole but something to keep in mind.

Powder/Bullet/Primer- GET THE BH209 breech plug and run that as your powder! Great velocity and consistent too. Keep in mind that black powder and substitutes are generally measured by volume and not weight. It is much more consistent to measure by weight but BH209 by weight has a higher volume- ie 80gr by weight (which seems to be the sweet spot) is like 110gr by volume. I run winchester 209s for primers.

Bullets- I love Harvester bullets- I ran 300gr sabertooths, my elk was 105 yards and the bullet entered just behind the shoulder, hit a rib and found it perfectly mushroomed on in the off side shoulder under the skin. The muley buck was right at 100 and was a complete pass through, taking one shoulder as well. Neither animal went more than 50 yards.

Good luck!!

This is the information I was looking for right here. Awesome write up and thanks for the information.

I fully intended on buying a set of speed loader tubes and measuring a bunch of measured charges out and using that when out in the field for reloads and even just at the bench since it is much easier to load up 20 charges and then just dump them in later. Do you have any suggestions for quick loading tubes? Ideally would have the primer, bullet and the charge quickly and easily grabbed from out of a pocket probably would only need 2 speed loaders then probably 20 tubes to hold powder for range and site in sessions.

For those sabertooth bullets do you use a bullet starter or just start them by hand and then use the loading rod to seat?

What kind of cleaning intervals are you seeing that you need to maintain accuracy out of your accuras? How far can you reliably keep your groups small enough for an elk or deer sized animal using your bullet and powder combo using irons? Is 200 yds for a deer sized animal fair to expect out of these using blackhorn 209 and harvester bullets?

[RdRdrFan]

I killed an elk and mule deer during the CO muzzleloader season last year (both were right at 100 yard shots) and I've spent years hunting in areas that were muzzleloader or shotgun only.

The CVA Accura line is a great choice and the stock is head and shoulders above the Optima and the Accura line has the Bergara barrels. I've never owned an Optima so I can't state definitively there is an accuracy difference... but I've owned 4 different Accuras and ALL of them shot excellently.

It is great that Williams got their crap together and made a specific sight set-- before they rolled those out you had to cobble together a set and hope it all lined up or get it all shimmed in place. There is a great gohunt.com article about western open sights. DEFINITELY- get the Lee Shaver sight inserts and find a good combo that works for you as it will greatly increase your range.

As for Accura models- there are a few particulars to keep in mind-- The stock design of the MR and PR models state "not designed for open sights". I have open sights on my MR and it is doable. They ride somewhat low and it takes a little getting used to. BUT the Accura V2 and V2LR have a better stock design for open sights, however some LRs apparently were made without having a front sight hole drilled/tapped. I've never had one that DIDN'T have a front hole but something to keep in mind.

Powder/Bullet/Primer- GET THE BH209 breech plug and run that as your powder! Great velocity and consistent too. Keep in mind that black powder and substitutes are generally measured by volume and not weight. It is much more consistent to measure by weight but BH209 by weight has a higher volume- ie 80gr by weight (which seems to be the sweet spot) is like 110gr by volume. I run winchester 209s for primers.

Bullets- I love Harvester bullets- I ran 300gr sabertooths, my elk was 105 yards and the bullet entered just behind the shoulder, hit a rib and found it perfectly mushroomed on in the off side shoulder under the skin. The muley buck was right at 100 and was a complete pass through, taking one shoulder as well. Neither animal went more than 50 yards.

Good luck!!

I agree with almost all of this post. Great info here.

I prefer and have had great luck with the Thor bullets.

[duckhunter175]

This is the information I was looking for right here. Awesome write up and thanks for the information.

I fully intended on buying a set of speed loader tubes and measuring a bunch of measured charges out and using that when out in the field for reloads and even just at the bench since it is much easier to load up 20 charges and then just dump them in later. Do you have any suggestions for quick loading tubes? Ideally would have the primer, bullet and the charge quickly and easily grabbed from out of a pocket probably would only need 2 speed loaders then probably 20 tubes to hold powder for range and site in sessions.

For those sabertooth bullets do you use a bullet starter or just start them by hand and then use the loading rod to seat?

What kind of cleaning intervals are you seeing that you need to maintain accuracy out of your accuras? How far can you reliably keep your groups small enough for an elk or deer sized animal using your bullet and powder combo using irons? Is 200 yds for a deer sized animal fair to expect out of these using blackhorn 209 and harvester bullets?

For reloads I carry a three part system, seems complicated but it isn't because I keep it all together in my 'possibles' pouch. I use a CVA rapid loader tube but I just keep 3-4 bullets down the tube. Then I run individually measured tubes of powder (BH209 branded). Finally I keep all my primers in a soft rubber 'primer caddy'. My experience has been more primer failure than anything else so I want those handy. For reloads I dump powder tube, grab a bullet (no sabot makes this even easier) and then prime up and follow up!

The sabertooths I start by hand and then hold low on the rod until they are a few inches down the tube.

Cleaning- the Accuras seemed to foul more quickly with sabots than with bore sized (CO legal) bullets. 5 rounds was not a problem but I generally shoot 3 and at least swab out the bore and clean the breech plug. I like to shoot groups in as close to a condition as my ML will be in during the hunt.

As far as the range-- it really will depend how comfortable you are with open sights. I have no doubt there is enough energy for a clean kill, the harder part will be getting it there. When I tested bullets and charge weights I had a scope mounted to be as precise as possible. Once I found what that ML liked I mounted up the irons and zeroed them, having full confidence in exactly what that rifle could do.

In the Accuras I have seen 1moa out to 150 yards scoped (which is also my self limited iron sight distance from the short barreled Accura MR). If you ran a super fine crosshair on your irons and had a 30" Accura LR you're gonna carry some extra velocity, longer sight radius, heavier/more stable design you can probably easily make 200.

Just keep in mind during hunting situations that fine crosshair is a PAIN to pick up without broad daylight. For my front sight I ran the Lee Shaver fine crosshair and the thin 'post/dot' that gave a little bit more contrast and most certainly helped in low light.

[westtexducks]

For reloads I carry a three part system, seems complicated but it isn't because I keep it all together in my 'possibles' pouch. I use a CVA rapid loader tube but I just keep 3-4 bullets down the tube. Then I run individually measured tubes of powder (BH209 branded). Finally I keep all my primers in a soft rubber 'primer caddy'. My experience has been more primer failure than anything else so I want those handy. For reloads I dump powder tube, grab a bullet (no sabot makes this even easier) and then prime up and follow up!

The sabertooths I start by hand and then hold low on the rod until they are a few inches down the tube.

Cleaning- the Accuras seemed to foul more quickly with sabots than with bore sized (CO legal) bullets. 5 rounds was not a problem but I generally shoot 3 and at least swab out the bore and clean the breech plug. I like to shoot groups in as close to a condition as my ML will be in during the hunt.

As far as the range-- it really will depend how comfortable you are with open sights. I have no doubt there is enough energy for a clean kill, the harder part will be getting it there. When I tested bullets and charge weights I had a scope mounted to be as precise as possible. Once I found what that ML liked I mounted up the irons and zeroed them, having full confidence in exactly what that rifle could do.

In the Accuras I have seen 1moa out to 150 yards scoped (which is also my self limited iron sight distance from the short barreled Accura MR). If you ran a super fine crosshair on your irons and had a 30" Accura LR you're gonna carry some extra velocity, longer sight radius, heavier/more stable design you can probably easily make 200.

Just keep in mind during hunting situations that fine crosshair is a PAIN to pick up without broad daylight. For my front sight I ran the Lee Shaver fine crosshair and the thin 'post/dot' that gave a little bit more contrast and most certainly helped in low light.

Thanks for the info, been hunting with and shooting irons for years. I am fully confident with a set of irons out to 200 yds on a deer sized object if the rifle is shooting 1-1.5 moa at 100 yds. Probably will do the same with working up a load with a scope of some sort on it to just get good data, then will mount up my irons afterwards site in and hunt with it.

After doing more research probably going to get the V2 and have decent barrel length and a stock with a lower comb just to be more comfortable shooting it with irons.

Again thanks for all the info on your process and system that you use. Really was super helpful with getting pointed in the right direction and confirmed some of my thoughts that I had.

[duckhunter175]

Glad to help!! I think MLs are always fun to tinker with.

V2 is a great choice and I'm sure you will have some luck with it. Once you start looking at bullet choices I can send you a couple of Sabertooths to try out.

I just picked up the new .45cal Accura LR and I plan to try to the powerbelt ELR as well as some of the bullets offered by Arrowhead Rifles. My plan is to make this ML my 200+ iron sight gun specifically for chasing CO mulies.