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Old 09-26-2022, 03:59 PM   #51
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how do you slow the spread of something without knowing how it's spreading? reactionary measures that facilitate the removal of a disliked industry?

the deer are going from PENS (a double or sometimes triple high fence environment) to another high fence environment. They're not taking deer out of pens and dumping them into public free range areas.

this entire argument is ridiculous. they're transporting deer from one container to another container.

if deer trailers were flipping over and the deer were running free, you'd have a better argument.

I can say with an absolute straight face that I think the exponential increase of testing has a lot more to do with the "spread" than the transportation of deer does.
You just said that deer pens were probably being infected by the wild deer, and now you are saying that all the released deer are going to containers that cant spread disease beyond their borders.

That logic kinda makes it tough to have a serious conversation.
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Old 09-26-2022, 04:11 PM   #52
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Yea but not in Texas until it was introduced recently.


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Ummmm negative. Google it. Mule deer west TX
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Old 09-26-2022, 04:12 PM   #53
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You just said that deer pens were probably being infected by the wild deer, and now you are saying that all the released deer are going to containers that cant spread disease beyond their borders.

That logic kinda makes it tough to have a serious conversation.

I never made that statement. I asked a hypothetical question. My point is that these measures are focused on testing testing testing for positives but thereís nothing into stopping the source. Like your map. They find a new positive, then whatís the action? Yes another testing zone.

Did we give up on that and just admit defeat? Serious question.

What makes it hard to have a serious conversation is 90% of the focus being placed on about .01% of the whitetail population. Weíre not going to get into a ďhigh fences donít really impede deer movementĒ discussion are we?

Last edited by kyle1974; 09-26-2022 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 09-26-2022, 04:17 PM   #54
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Ummmm negative. Google it. Mule deer west TX
Please refer to post #24 on this thread...
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Old 09-26-2022, 04:29 PM   #55
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I never made that statement. I asked a hypothetical question. My point is that these measures are focused on testing testing testing for positives but thereís nothing into stopping the source. Did we give up on that and just admit defeat? Serious question.

What makes it hard to have a serious conversation is 90% of the focus being placed on about .01% of the whitetail population.

Weíre not going to get into a ďhigh fences donít really impede deer movementĒ discussion are we?

Nope. Fences are definitely an impediment to deer movement. I mean I guess they are considering the thousands of deer that have been documented by permit holders as escaped over the last decade.

The focus is on the deer that move the most, whatever their percentage of the population. That just so happens to be deer in trailers, breeder/exotic or otherwise.

Hypothetically that was a nice backtrack. Now I know how Shaggy's girlfriend felt.

It Wasn't Me


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Old 09-26-2022, 04:37 PM   #56
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You just said that deer pens were probably being infected by the wild deer, and now you are saying that all the released deer are going to containers that cant spread disease beyond their borders.

That logic kinda makes it tough to have a serious conversation.
On another property, how can it show up in a deer that’s barely a year(by a few days), that genetically shouldn’t of got it, per DNA ? It wasn’t born with it as it parents have been tested, live and dead, along with multiple generations of off spring. Been no other deer or seman brought in, in over 7 years? Not to mention its been in a trap/pen it whole life.

So is where did it come from? Feed? Sabotage? Genetic trigger? Bird?

Seems No body cares, it’s just pointing fingers and kill kill kill.

I’m not a big breeder fan but I genuinely tired of the ideology of blame game and doom and gloom instead of so many research potentials.

Politics are really getting disgusting, it’s obviously has the potential to be coming from feed so do we shut any grain or feed down? Or just keep pointing fingers at breeders?

Wonder what would happen if King, Nulley, Briscoe had a positive hit in their herds? Nothing? maybe it should pop up on one of these ranches, then it would get fixed like Equine Piroplasmois did with a three year grace period

Last edited by Texans42; 09-26-2022 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 09-26-2022, 04:40 PM   #57
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I’m glad they aren’t naming the ranch.
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Old 09-26-2022, 04:45 PM   #58
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On another property, how can it show up in a deer that’s barely a year(by a few days), that genetically shouldn’t of got it, per DNA ? It wasn’t born with it as it parents have been tested, live and dead, along with multiple generations of off spring. Been no other deer or seman brought in, in over 7 years? Not to mention its been in a trap/pen it whole life.

So is where did it come from? Feed? Sabotage? Genetic trigger? Bird?

Seems No body cares, it’s just pointing fingers and kill kill kill.
Wish i knew the answers to those questions. Would love to be able to try to prevent future spread in MORE effective ways, but that doesn't stop what we DO know, that moving animals with the disease spreads the disease.


Genetic trigger: From my understanding, spontaneous origin cases look different than contagious infection cases. Maybe they can look at that.

Sabotage? Who why?

Bird? From where? 100 miles away?

Feed? I guess thats possible but the concentration required seems like a stretch. Don't believe that transfer to Plant from Soil to Animal to Infection has ever been proved, and I have my doubts about this just like I do about Human infection.

Is 5 years not enough time to look back? I think cases like this probably warrant at least an investigation into that even though 5 years is the guideline for a reason.

Last edited by Encinal; 09-26-2022 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 09-26-2022, 04:53 PM   #59
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On another property, how can it show up in a deer thatís barely a year(by a few days), that genetically shouldnít of got it, per DNA ? It wasnít born with it as it parents have been tested, live and dead, along with multiple generations of off spring. Been no other deer or seman brought in, in over 7 years? Not to mention its been in a trap/pen it whole life.

So is where did it come from? Feed? Sabotage? Genetic trigger? Bird?

Seems No body cares, itís just pointing fingers and kill kill kill.

Iím not a big breeder fan but I genuinely tired of the ideology of blame game and doom and gloom instead of so many research potentials.

Politics are really getting disgusting, itís obviously has the potential to be coming from feed so do we shut any grain or feed down? Or just keep pointing fingers at breeders?

Wonder what would happen if King, Nulley, Briscoe had a positive hit in their herds? Nothing maybe it should pop up on one of these ranches, then it would get fixed like Equine Piroplasmois did with a three year grace period

Hard to get a positive hit when you rarely, if ever test.

And weíve all been around long enough to know that a questionable deer will never be voluntarily tested from one of those ranches.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:03 PM   #60
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Wish i knew the answers to those questions. Would love to be able to try to prevent future spread in MORE effective ways, but that doesn't stop what we DO know, that moving animals with the disease spreads the disease.


Genetic trigger: From my understanding, spontaneous origin cases look different than contagious infection cases. Maybe they can look at that.

Sabotage? Who why?

Bird? From where? 100 miles away?

Feed? I guess thats possible but the concentration required seems like a stretch. Don't believe that transfer to Plant from Soil to Animal to Infection has ever been proved, and I have my doubts about this just like I do about Human infection.

Is 5 years not enough time to look back? I think cases like this probably warrant at least an investigation into that even though 5 years is the guideline for a reason.
Doesnít seem like there is a whole lot of concern on original origins or how.

I donít know the answers either but I do wish the ideology would change to letís seek to understand and not breeder bad boom, and Iím not even a breeder fan.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:11 PM   #61
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The pen deer that are released into HF pastures can also get out from time to time, just like coyotes, hogs, etc.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:11 PM   #62
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Yes, your need for trophy deer supersedes everyone else that just want to hunt deer without them being infected. Great argument.
...but it's their right to do whatever they want with livestock whether it hurts all other sportsmen or not. How dare you try to take that away.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:13 PM   #63
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Doesn’t seem like there is a whole lot of concern on original origins or how.

I don’t know the answers either but I do wish the ideology would change to let’s seek to understand and not breeder bad boom, and I’m not even a breeder fan.
People that want to do what's right for the state's wildlife resources regardless of their personal interests are very hard to find. I'm lucky to know quite a few.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:15 PM   #64
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With the right political shift I could see this being used to reduce curtail hunting in a few ways. first would be to scare away hunters by using the term "zombie deer". Second would be to ban feeding "because it un-naturally brings deer closer together". Thirdly the state could decimate the herd to stop the spread of the disease.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:36 PM   #65
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Encinal the prions have been found in the soil and in plants in endemic areas. Animals placed in "pens" where cwd positives have been housed has produced positives in previously negative deer and elk. The Sybille Research facility where it and other diseases are studied is a death sentence for any deer or elk sent there to live, most get it and die from it.
Up here they are trying ways to slow the spread but current theories on how are not very mature buck friendly.
Prevalence rates they claim are highest in mature bucks, mule deer and whitetails. They want to try reducing the population of mature bucks drastically to reduce prevalence rates. Hunters have revolted and they are scaling back those plans for now.

No human cases of v-CJD, human cwd, here where we have had it documented in our herds since the 1970's.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:41 PM   #66
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...but it's their right to do whatever they want with livestock whether it hurts all other sportsmen or not. How dare you try to take that away.
Regardless of each otherís views on livestock or even Fencing, it behooves us to work to try to find out how it can show up in such a protected, tested and documented environments. There are guys in the industry doing everything right. Thatís should be the scary thing, or we could just keep pointing fingers until we follow suit like some of the ground zero ballot biology states that states are trying to kill it out with increased tag numbers and later rut seasons.. then use hunter and winter kill data to show CWD caused population declines.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:44 PM   #67
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Regardless of each other’s views on livestock or even Fencing, it behooves us to work to try to find out how it can show up in such a protected, tested and documented environments. There are guys in the industry doing everything right. That’s should be the scary thing, or we could just keep pointing fingers until we follow suit like some of the ground zero ballot biology states that states are trying to kill it out with increased tag numbers and later rut seasons.. then use hunter and winter kill data to show CWD caused population declines.
Right, but you don't just keep doing the things that are proven to rapidly keep spreading it while waiting to find out about a few one-offs. Attack it from all angles.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:51 PM   #68
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Encinal the prions have been found in the soil and in plants in endemic areas. Animals placed in "pens" where cwd positives have been housed has produced positives in previously negative deer and elk. The Sybille Research facility where it and other diseases are studied is a death sentence for any deer or elk sent there to live, most get it and die from it.
Up here they are trying ways to slow the spread but current theories on how are not very mature buck friendly.
Prevalence rates they claim are highest in mature bucks, mule deer and whitetails. They want to try reducing the population of mature bucks drastically to reduce prevalence rates. Hunters have revolted and they are scaling back those plans for now.

No human cases of v-CJD, human cwd, here where we have had it documented in our herds since the 1970's.

Correct, but there has not been a documented transfer from plant to cervid infection to my knowledge, certainly not a documented case of transported plant matter to cervid infection.
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Old 09-26-2022, 05:52 PM   #69
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Right, but you don't just keep doing the things that are proven to rapidly keep spreading it while waiting to find out about a few one-offs. Attack it from all angles.
Exactly.
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Old 09-26-2022, 06:01 PM   #70
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well it's pretty clear that some people just want to wave a torch and pitchfork over CWD.

if Sippy is right about deer not being transported here in the last 7 years, then what happened?

was it being covered up with false testing?

Is it possible to transport the prions in feed??

There are too many assumptions about breeders without acknowledging the fact the test a far higher percentage of their deer than free range.

Maybe a free range deer rubbed noses with a deer inside the high fence, then a high fence deer rubbed noses with a deer inside the pens.

M16 - do you really want to KNOW, or are you just going to default to yelling at the kids off your lawn like usual?
I posed this question to the Big Game Program Leader at TPWD after finding about my client being a trace facility. He told me he doesnít know how it got there, but he is worried about alfalfa and other feedstuffs, veterinarians reusing surgical equipment, and people not sanitizing their boots before and after going in pens.
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Old 09-26-2022, 06:07 PM   #71
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F a bunch of breeders and their rediculous high arse priced huntsÖ..
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Old 09-26-2022, 06:07 PM   #72
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Right, but you don't just keep doing the things that are proven to rapidly keep spreading it while waiting to find out about a few one-offs. Attack it from all angles.
Great, letís start with banning all supplemental feeding programs; grain, hay and pellets. If itís grow with soil it can contain the prion. Infact we should ban movement of all grain and hay from CWD areas

We have live testing currently for any deer movement, so letís test 100% of all deer killed in TX so we can get a better idea where its at. Then we can get a better idea how bad it is in free range populations across the country.
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Old 09-26-2022, 06:08 PM   #73
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F a bunch of breeders and their rediculous high arse priced huntsÖ..
Evil capitalists.
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Old 09-26-2022, 06:09 PM   #74
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F a bunch of breeders and their rediculous high arse priced huntsÖ..
They are actually a bargain per inch compared to LF, if thatís all you care about is inches.
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Old 09-26-2022, 07:15 PM   #75
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...but it's their right to do whatever they want with livestock whether it hurts all other sportsmen or not. How dare you try to take that away.
White tail deer are considered livestock?
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Old 09-26-2022, 08:52 PM   #76
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The pen deer that are released into HF pastures can also get out from time to time, just like coyotes, hogs, etc.
Hell the STATE has released plenty of TTT deer into free range herds. Thereís been lots of deer kicked out into free range herds over the years. Research it. Latest has been in the anthrax areas. They released quite a few with private land owners. Thereís several areas in the hill country where south Texas genetics were released long ago.

This is a pissing match between breeders and breeder haters.
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Old 09-26-2022, 10:14 PM   #77
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Im confused. Are free range deer that 99 percent of Texans hunt testing positive for CWD routinely or is it breeding and genetic management ranch operations where they are finding these deer?


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Old 09-26-2022, 10:54 PM   #78
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Im confused. Are free range deer that 99 percent of Texans hunt testing positive for CWD routinely or is it breeding and genetic management ranch operations where they are finding these deer?


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Don’t be confused, just use the percentage of tests given to positive ratio. Panhandle and West Texas highways might be highest. Regardless good luck finding a deer that died from CWD vs died with CWD in TX
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Old 09-26-2022, 11:48 PM   #79
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White tail deer are considered livestock?
I consider half the deer these guys got on the wall to be livestock, sure.
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Old 09-26-2022, 11:50 PM   #80
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Great, letís start with banning all supplemental feeding programs; grain, hay and pellets. If itís grow with soil it can contain the prion. Infact we should ban movement of all grain and hay from CWD areas

We have live testing currently for any deer movement, so letís test 100% of all deer killed in TX so we can get a better idea where its at. Then we can get a better idea how bad it is in free range populations across the country.
Need to ban corn too and protein feeders.
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Old 09-27-2022, 12:31 AM   #81
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I consider half the deer these guys got on the wall to be livestock, sure.
Jealousy at its finest. Lol
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Old 09-27-2022, 02:08 AM   #82
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Plenty of CWD deer in free range herds too.
Yep and has been for many years.
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Old 09-27-2022, 02:31 AM   #83
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Jealousy at its finest. Lol
If they are penning them and selling them, they are livestock.
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Old 09-27-2022, 03:43 AM   #84
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If they are penning them and selling them, they are livestock.
Agreed 100%. My comment wasnít aimed at that. Mr ďpublic landĒ and no feeders bla bla gets on his soap box every CWD thread. Usually, not always, but usually the public land dudes have their panties in a wad because they canít/donít/ whatever hunt private land. So they cast shade on **** they donít know about.

Then you have ole M16 thinking heís superior because while he is high fenced, itís native deer. While he fails to realize plenty of folks think ALL high fence deer are pets.

Then Marko is somewhere in the middle but is civil.

Same song and dance. Different thread. I stress if truly wanting to find an unbiased cause and solution, if there is one, they want to blame it ALL on breeders. Every time. Lots of money and politics in play and TPWD isnít the brightest bunch to begin with. Money talks. Then TWA enters the chat. Big ole **** show. Heaven forbid we work together on the issue. Nope. Letís shut all the breeders down! Burn them at the stake!
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Old 09-27-2022, 06:36 AM   #85
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Has anyone tried testing alfalfa and feed for prions? Lots of alfalfa comes from CWD states. If it was discovered to be spread by trucking in food sources that would certainly have a huge impact.
I've been saying this for years, just look at the AG shipments from Colorado alone.
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Old 09-27-2022, 07:56 AM   #86
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Agreed 100%. My comment wasnít aimed at that. Mr ďpublic landĒ and no feeders bla bla gets on his soap box every CWD thread. Usually, not always, but usually the public land dudes have their panties in a wad because they canít/donít/ whatever hunt private land. So they cast shade on **** they donít know about.

Then you have ole M16 thinking heís superior because while he is high fenced, itís native deer. While he fails to realize plenty of folks think ALL high fence deer are pets.

Then Marko is somewhere in the middle but is civil.

Same song and dance. Different thread. I stress if truly wanting to find an unbiased cause and solution, if there is one, they want to blame it ALL on breeders. Every time. Lots of money and politics in play and TPWD isnít the brightest bunch to begin with. Money talks. Then TWA enters the chat. Big ole **** show. Heaven forbid we work together on the issue. Nope. Letís shut all the breeders down! Burn them at the stake!
I've never said to shut the breeders down. Just keep the deer out of trailers and hauling them all over the state. That is the only current way to slow the progression of the disease. Had that been done from the get go. The only part of the state that would have the disease would be the area in West Texas. It would have taken hundreds of years to advance to the point we see now. Ask yourself one question. Why did the state shut down bringing in deer from out of state? Yet allow diseased deer already in state to be trucked from one end to the other.

Instead of making personal attacks. Spend some time doing some research. Your knowledge of the disease is severely lacking.
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Old 09-27-2022, 08:05 AM   #87
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I've been saying this for years, just look at the AG shipments from Colorado alone.
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Infectious, deformed proteins called prions, known to cause chronic wasting disease (CWD) in deer, can be taken up by plants such as alfalfa, corn, and tomatoes, according to new research from the National Wildlife Health Center (NWHC) in Madison.
Plants absolutely can serve as a vector for prions. Deer and exotic breeders feed a lot of alfalfa. Hunters put it out as an attractant for free range deer all the time. Why hasn't this been researched further?
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Old 09-27-2022, 08:58 AM   #88
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I've never said to shut the breeders down. Just keep the deer out of trailers and hauling them all over the state. That is the only current way to slow the progression of the disease. Had that been done from the get go. The only part of the state that would have the disease would be the area in West Texas. It would have taken hundreds of years to advance to the point we see now. Ask yourself one question. Why did the state shut down bringing in deer from out of state? Yet allow diseased deer already in state to be trucked from one end to the other.

Instead of making personal attacks. Spend some time doing some research. Your knowledge of the disease is severely lacking.
No youíve made your stance quite clear. Many many times. And none of you admit to the fact that more positive tests show up in breeder facilities due to the percentage of deer tested Vs free range herds. I do admit and always have itís much easier transmitted and transported by breeders.

But folks move feed and all kinds of other exotics and live stock. Elk being a prime example. Known carriers. Again, I think we are all wanting it fixed. Some just enjoy playing the blame came due to a personal bias.
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Old 09-27-2022, 09:03 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Sika View Post
Plants absolutely can serve as a vector for prions. Deer and exotic breeders feed a lot of alfalfa. Hunters put it out as an attractant for free range deer all the time. Why hasn't this been researched further?
Because it doesnít fit their agenda and it will impact their ranches as well once the truth is out about how it originated and is transported.
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Old 09-27-2022, 09:08 AM   #90
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Only way deer should be transported is if they agree to wear a mask and get vaccinated.


LOL.
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Old 09-27-2022, 01:20 PM   #91
justletmein
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Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
Jealousy at its finest. Lol
I always expect and laugh at this type of presumptive cop-out response. Yall can shoot livestock all you want and try to feel good about it but many of us have seen both sides and know and feel the difference. No biggie, whatever makes you feel better.
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Old 09-27-2022, 01:37 PM   #92
S-3 Ranch
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Originally Posted by justletmein View Post
I always expect and laugh at this type of presumptive cop-out response. Yall can shoot livestock all you want and try to feel good about it but many of us have seen both sides and know and feel the difference. No biggie, whatever makes you feel better.
I 100% support this statement
I truly miss the old days of hunting huge unbroken ranchís, native deer , quail hunting, ect

I disdain places like Sampson ridge , and those hunt by the inch farms.
If their the majority CWD problem in Texas well I donít need to say much Else
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Old 09-27-2022, 01:41 PM   #93
txtrophy85
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
Yeah. Compliments of breeder pens.
The first cases of CWD in Texas were detected in Free Range Mule Deer and Elk herds......
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Old 09-27-2022, 02:06 PM   #94
cantexduck
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If the state really cared they would test all deer and explore the possibility of importing through hay and alfalfa .
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Old 09-27-2022, 02:27 PM   #95
crc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
No youíve made your stance quite clear. Many many times. And none of you admit to the fact that more positive tests show up in breeder facilities due to the percentage of deer tested Vs free range herds. I do admit and always have itís much easier transmitted and transported by breeders.

But folks move feed and all kinds of other exotics and live stock. Elk being a prime example. Known carriers. Again, I think we are all wanting it fixed. Some just enjoy playing the blame came due to a personal bias.
Would you knowingly eat a CWD positive deer?
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Old 09-27-2022, 02:38 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Lynn21 View Post
F a bunch of breeders and their rediculous high arse priced huntsÖ..
Now theres a constructive response to the thread. But Im not surprised by the author either.

And FTR, Im not a huge fan of fences. Im keeping up with the thread in an attempt to actually learn something
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Old 09-27-2022, 02:47 PM   #97
M16
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The first cases of CWD in Texas were detected in Free Range Mule Deer ......
True. Now tell us where the next 50 cases were detected otherwise whatís your point.
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Old 09-27-2022, 02:47 PM   #98
bloodtrailer28
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The first cases of CWD in Texas were detected in Free Range Mule Deer and Elk herds......
You'd think someone who worked for TXPW would know things like this but they show their ignorance regularly.
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Old 09-27-2022, 02:50 PM   #99
bloodtrailer28
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Originally Posted by crc View Post
Would you knowingly eat a CWD positive deer?
How many times are you going to continue to ask this stupid question? What answer are you expecting?

People eat elk mule deer and Whitetail every year from places known to have cwd and that has been there for years. Would anyone knowingly eat a positive animal I highly doubt it but it doesn't stop people from eating animals that come from areas where cwd is prevalent.
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Old 09-27-2022, 04:08 PM   #100
trophy8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justletmein View Post
I always expect and laugh at this type of presumptive cop-out response. Yall can shoot livestock all you want and try to feel good about it but many of us have seen both sides and know and feel the difference. No biggie, whatever makes you feel better.
I donít care for breeders and the only high fence stuff Iíve hunted is exotics aside from some management whitetail. But nice try. And yes Iíd say Iíve pretty successful with free range deer
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