White settlement Church shooting

[RascalArms]

Read the rest of my posts and you may or may not figure out what I mean..

But yea if you own a vehicle and do not know how to "safely" and responsibly handle/use it, drive it, then please leave it parked in your driveway.. No one wants to be at risk because someone else decides to be irresponsible.. Same goes for guns..

Some poor 61 year old lady was just killed New Years eve, hit in the top of the head by a falling bullet, because some idiot with a gun decided to shoot it into the air.. But that was his constitutional "Right"

Dude....I tried to stay out of this but you are just reaching now. You say you are pro 2A but this “I’m scared mentality” is getting ridiculous. I think you started off by just advocating for maybe stricter training for LTC certifications. I totally disagree...but I can at least respect your view there.

But then you took it to whole new level with the statement above in bold!!! Are you serious? That is exactly what I would expect to hear from the gun grabbing antis. You do realize you just blamed the gun...not the individual, right?

Good grief man....if you feel that our “freedoms” are “misused” then you are part of the problem. What exactly do you want to see changed? More strict regulations with regard to firearm “safety”? It’s asinine to think you can regulate or mandate personal responsibility. As Curt mentioned there are already laws in place preventing people from being STUPID! What will change the actions of an idiot or someone intent on doing harm? Who do you want to put in charge of establishing the rules? The feds? The state? Local law?? Do you trust them to keep score and monitor EVERYONE? Sorry..........but I **** sure don’t.

”Own all the guns you want, just keep them at home”???? Wow!!!!

[Preacher Man]

Seems prudent and advisable for any church to have a security team -- volunteers or pros or a combination, and for those folks to hone their skills and train for various scenarios that may arise.

After this silly crap happened at White Settlement, I started the conversation, with the church leadership, concerning this very thing. I found out two things.

1) We got nothing. Nada. Zilch. I know of at least two people who conceal carry at my church. I'm sure there are more. I hope there are more.

2) They are worried about the liability of a church member, who is on the security team, accidentally shooting another church member during an active shooter incident and/or a member of the team having an accidental discharge of some kind.

My thoughts: The first item listed above is unacceptable. That will change.

The second item might have a 'work around' if the individuals all carry additional insurance through a carrier like Texas Law Shield. And obviously if there is a security group that is formed, additional training will be required.

What do y'all think?

[glen]

I would tell them a security team has become part of caring for your congregation

#2- If I was in church and an active shooter situation occurred it would be better to have a person possibly struck by friendly fire than a high probability of active shooter killing them

[Shane]

After this silly crap happened at White Settlement, I started the conversation, with the church leadership, concerning this very thing. I found out two things.

1) We got nothing. Nada. Zilch. I know of at least two people who conceal carry at my church. I'm sure there are more. I hope there are more.

2) They are worried about the liability of a church member, who is on the security team, accidentally shooting another church member during an active shooter incident and/or a member of the team having an accidental discharge of some kind.

My thoughts: The first item listed above is unacceptable. That will change.

The second item might have a 'work around' if the individuals all carry additional insurance through a carrier like Texas Law Shield. And obviously if there is a security group that is formed, additional training will be required.

What do y'all think?

I'm an elder of a fairly large church, and we've dealt with this over the last few years. Most people agree that having people armed and organized is prudent. Obviously, almost no church is going to have a team of people trained to the degree that we'd all like to have. But being a big group of unarmed sitting ducks is never a good idea. (Although there are always gonna be a few people that would disagree with that.)

The biggest difficulty is with insurance companies. Ours won't insure us if the church has an official armed security team. They are OK with us allowing folks to carry on their own, but the added liability of having it a church sponsored team that is required or encouraged to be armed makes them nervous. We haven't revisited that with them since the new law passed. The new law may have eliminated that concern for them, I don't know.

We do have a security team that is spread out all over the different parts of our building, and they walk around and monitor everything the whole time. The vast majority of them are CHL holders and armed - as are several other members. We pay to have a police officer on site during our services as well. Having a patrol car in the parking lot and a uniformed police officer walking around is good in all kinds of ways. There were a few that objected to that when we first talked about hiring a LEO. They felt it would make the church appear less friendly and inviting. I see their point, but most of us felt that having a church that is more secure gives people warm fuzzies too.

We have almost 30 different exterior doors on the property. We lock all but just a small handful a few minutes after services get started. The doors that are left unlocked have a security team member closely monitoring them. Some are always locked, but some are unlocked before and after service to allow people easier access in and out of the building. Of course, we have to have doors that can be opened easily from the inside even while they're locked from the outside to allow folks a way of escape in case of fire or any other emergency. We have video cameras all over the place.

In spite of all of that, I'm sure that if somebody wanted to find a way to come into our building and hurt people, there'd be a way. But, hopefully, we would at least be able to minimize the damage, as they were able to in White Settlement. I pray like crazy we never get to find out how well prepared (or not) we are.

[IbexRanch]

Carry your piece

[Preacher Man]

I think you're right Shane. I think the biggest hurdle will be with the church insurance. I'm hoping that the requirement for all members of the security team having LTC insurance will do the trick. I'm also wondering if having all the members of the team take some sort of pistol training class would help with the insurance "issue".

[Grayson]

I think you're right Shane. I think the biggest hurdle will be with the church insurance. I'm hoping that the requirement for all members of the security team having LTC insurance will do the trick. I'm also wondering if having all the members of the team take some sort of pistol training class would help with the insurance "issue".

LTC insurance wouldn’t do anything to insulate the church from litigation, and that’s what the concern is, not the individual LTC guy’s liability.

[RascalArms]

I would tell them a security team has become part of caring for your congregation

#2- If I was in church and an active shooter situation occurred it would be better to have a person possibly struck by friendly fire than a high probability of active shooter killing them

Amen....it’s really that simple. I just don’t understand all the fear of something bad “potentially” happening. What are the alternatives? Do nothing....and just hope a situation doesn’t occur?
It’s like carrying auto, home or life insurance. You don’t need it until something happens. Then you dang sure better have it.

[Shane]

I think you're right Shane. I think the biggest hurdle will be with the church insurance. I'm hoping that the requirement for all members of the security team having LTC insurance will do the trick. I'm also wondering if having all the members of the team take some sort of pistol training class would help with the insurance "issue".

Having all the members individually insured on their own won't make the church's insurer more likely to insure an armed security team. That doesn't do anything to alleviate any potential liability on the church's part. Based on our conversations with our insurance people, I don't think that requiring a training class would help either. The insurance company is worried about potential claims resulting from improper or negligent use of firearms, which a training program might help alleviate some. But they're also concerned about claims against the church from bad guys and/or their families if the church folks did a professional job of using a firearm to fend off some kind of attack. And then there's the added level of scrutiny that could be expected from a team that is supposed to be well-trained, potentially raising the bar of expectation on the security team and the church.

Trial lawyers will think up every reason they can to sue you, even if you did everything right. It won't surprise me a bit if the church in White Settlement and/or the hero get sued by the perp's family. It's also possible that a family of a church member who was killed or injured in an attack like that could sue the church for not protecting everyone adequately. Based on what I know about the folks at West Freeway, I doubt very seriously that would happen in this case. But it is definitely something that can happen in similar instances.

Dang trial lawyers and insurance companies seem to enjoy finding all kinds of ways to make life difficult for the rest of us.

[Gherkin05]

Dude....I tried to stay out of this but you are just reaching now. You say you are pro 2A but this “I’m scared mentality” is getting ridiculous. I think you started off by just advocating for maybe stricter training for LTC certifications. I totally disagree...but I can at least respect your view there.



But then you took it to whole new level with the statement above in bold!!! Are you serious? That is exactly what I would expect to hear from the gun grabbing antis. You do realize you just blamed the gun...not the individual, right?



Good grief man....if you feel that our “freedoms” are “misused” then you are part of the problem. What exactly do you want to see changed? More strict regulations with regard to firearm “safety”? It’s asinine to think you can regulate or mandate personal responsibility. As Curt mentioned there are already laws in place preventing people from being STUPID! What will change the actions of an idiot or someone intent on doing harm? Who do you want to put in charge of establishing the rules? The feds? The state? Local law?? Do you trust them to keep score and monitor EVERYONE? Sorry..........but I **** sure don’t.



”Own all the guns you want, just keep them at home”???? Wow!!!!

Thanks, Rascal. I teed him up good and he ripped it over the green.

He’s a statist but hasn’t admitted it to himself yet. He wants to regulate 2A, period. He can’t handle that freedom means stupid people have rights too.

Plenty of laws are on the books. Let’s just enforce what we’ve got, nothing more and we could probably do with less.

[Dale Moser]

After this silly crap happened at White Settlement, I started the conversation, with the church leadership, concerning this very thing. I found out two things.

1) We got nothing. Nada. Zilch. I know of at least two people who conceal carry at my church. I'm sure there are more. I hope there are more.

2) They are worried about the liability of a church member, who is on the security team, accidentally shooting another church member during an active shooter incident and/or a member of the team having an accidental discharge of some kind.

My thoughts: The first item listed above is unacceptable. That will change.

The second item might have a 'work around' if the individuals all carry additional insurance through a carrier like Texas Law Shield. And obviously if there is a security group that is formed, additional training will be required.

What do y'all think?

What you need is a little good old fashioned, off the record, collusion....which of course you would have no knowledge of, and wouldn't sanction if you did.

When does the Men's Club meet next....


You'll have to forgive me, I don't know what denomination of church you preach at. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and the Men's Club handled such things as "weeds in the flower bed", and the like. May be that you can't even call it "Men's Club" anymore...

[PondPopper]

Thanks, Rascal. I teed him up good and he ripped it over the green.

He’s a statist but hasn’t admitted it to himself yet. He wants to regulate 2A, period. He can’t handle that freedom means stupid people have rights too.

Plenty of laws are on the books. Let’s just enforce what we’ve got, nothing more and we could probably do with less.

Lol.. You guys crack me up... Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.
Yea I'm not one bit ashamed to admit that I've said, on numerous occasions, "that idiot shouldn't be allowed to own a gun"... It won't be the last either... Some of these posts make that perfectly clear.. The 2nd gives us rights that carry a lot of power but it does'nt give us the right to be and act irresponsiblly. Owning, carrying, and using firearms also carries with it a huge level of responsibility... That doesn't register with many..

[Gherkin05]

Lol.. You guys crack me up... Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.
Yea I'm not one bit ashamed to admit that I've said, on numerous occasions, "that idiot shouldn't be allowed to own a gun"... It won't be the last either... Some of these posts make that perfectly clear.. The 2nd gives us rights that carry a lot of power but it does'nt give us the right to be and act irresponsiblly. Owning, carrying, and using firearms also carries with it a huge level of responsibility... That doesn't register with many..

Forest for the trees, brother.

“Owning, carrying, and using firearms also carries with it a huge level of responsibility... That doesn't register with many..”

This is what gun laws, and all laws are for. As a civilized society we regulate many things; child welfare, treatment of animals, property ownership....as just a few.

You’re trying to place a higher level of responsibility on gun position than other civil responsibilities; you’ve referenced driving twice.

And I’m glad to see you’re laughing. You’ve been cracking us up for two days.

[Preacher Man]

What you need is a little good old fashioned, off the record, collusion....which of course you would have no knowledge of, and wouldn't sanction if you did.

When does the Men's Club meet next....


You'll have to forgive me, I don't know what denomination of church you preach at. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and the Men's Club handled such things as "weeds in the flower bed", and the like. May be that you can't even call it "Men's Club" anymore...

I'm not a preacher. Its just a nickname I got a long time ago. Probably should have picked a better screen.

Very good advice from you and Shane. I appreciate it.

[Ramball36]

What you need is a little good old fashioned, off the record, collusion....which of course you would have no knowledge of, and wouldn't sanction if you did.

When does the Men's Club meet next....


You'll have to forgive me, I don't know what denomination of church you preach at. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and the Men's Club handled such things as "weeds in the flower bed", and the like. May be that you can't even call it "Men's Club" anymore...

This will be the route we will be going. Nobody needs to know a thing