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Old 11-30-2021, 03:25 PM   #1
Grant2
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I know HS football is still going on for some, but for most it’s over and baseball tryouts are coming fast. Just a reminder get those boys in the weight room and start a long toss program right now. If your son was playing HS football he needs to get going a lot of kids played fall ball or hit the weight room and the talent level starts to jump quick. I have been playing and coaching for many years and the talent level is really starting to show up and football plays a big part in that with strength and conditioning. Good luck to all the boys when tryouts start!

Last edited by Mary; 11-30-2021 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 11-30-2021, 03:58 PM   #2
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yep, lots of hurt arms in February are due to not starting a throwing program in the fall.
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Old 11-30-2021, 04:08 PM   #3
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Mine will start as soon as football is over. Those leopards from Lorena are still playing football. It will help that he throws about 100 passes a day, so his arm should be in pretty good shape once they are done.
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Old 11-30-2021, 04:52 PM   #4
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Do we have to go a full year with baseball misspelled in the thread title?
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Old 11-30-2021, 05:29 PM   #5
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Do we have to go a full year with baseball misspelled in the thread title?

That’s funny


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Old 11-30-2021, 06:24 PM   #6
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Gonna be a strange season for me. My youngest had TJ(internal brace) surgery in August. Junior year will mostly be rehab. He should be able to throw some by early May.
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:10 PM   #7
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Gonna be a strange season for me. My youngest had TJ(internal brace) surgery in August. Junior year will mostly be rehab. He should be able to throw some by early May.

My son had the internal brace surgery last year. It’s a bit easier recovery from full on TJ. My only advice is don’t rush it. Mine did and restrained it right before this last summer and had to sit it out while several of his summer teammates were committing to P5 schools. He should finally fully be recovered for his JR season coming up. Good luck to your son
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:25 PM   #8
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That’s funny


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Your right just saw that LOL!
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:18 PM   #9
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My son had the internal brace surgery last year. It’s a bit easier recovery from full on TJ. My only advice is don’t rush it. Mine did and restrained it right before this last summer and had to sit it out while several of his summer teammates were committing to P5 schools. He should finally fully be recovered for his JR season coming up. Good luck to your son
Sound advice. So far he is following the protocol exactly. He knows it’s more about being healthy for the next level. Sounds like our kids are the same age. Wouldn’t be shocked if they have played against each other. Good luck to your son.
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:29 PM   #10
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I know HS football is still going on for some, but for most it’s over and baseball tryouts are coming fast. Just a reminder get those boys in the weight room and start a long toss program right now. If your son was playing HS football he needs to get going a lot of kids played fall ball or hit the weight room and the talent level starts to jump quick. I have been playing and coaching for many years and the talent level is really starting to show up and football plays a big part in that with strength and conditioning. Good luck to all the boys when tryouts start!
They really shouldn't start throwing until at least the middle of December.
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:48 PM   #11
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They really shouldn't start throwing until at least the middle of December.
I couldn’t agree more….

Long toss programs are absolutely important for arm strength. But every bit as important is dedicated time off- recovery time. 6-8 weeks of flat out not touching a ball…..

Far more injuries are happening these days because of the year round playing, kids who only specialize in baseball and never give their arm time to heal. College coaches want athletes guys, athletes who know how to succeed and fail in different sports. So many kids play year round, get to college and are burned out when they figure out it’s a job….

Take the time off, do speed and agility along with strength training. THEN start a throwing program. They will come back stronger and healthier…..

Hurt arms in February are from overthrowing- or working through the progression too fast when you do start throwing. Not from taking 100% necessary time off.

But what do I know….. lowly college and high school coach….
And if it makes you feel any better (because some people believe their select coach knows WAY more than their high school coach, who is probably some other kids select coach) almost 20 years of coaching select as well….
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:37 PM   #12
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I couldn’t agree more….

Long toss programs are absolutely important for arm strength. But every bit as important is dedicated time off- recovery time. 6-8 weeks of flat out not touching a ball…..

Far more injuries are happening these days because of the year round playing, kids who only specialize in baseball and never give their arm time to heal. College coaches want athletes guys, athletes who know how to succeed and fail in different sports. So many kids play year round, get to college and are burned out when they figure out it’s a job….

Take the time off, do speed and agility along with strength training. THEN start a throwing program. They will come back stronger and healthier…..

Hurt arms in February are from overthrowing- or working through the progression too fast when you do start throwing. Not from taking 100% necessary time off.

But what do I know….. lowly college and high school coach….
And if it makes you feel any better (because some people believe their select coach knows WAY more than their high school coach, who is probably some other kids select coach) almost 20 years of coaching select as well….
But but my select coach said. Good info Coach but probably not what the play 365 crowd wants to hear.
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:53 PM   #13
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But but my select coach said. Good info Coach but probably not what the play 365 crowd wants to hear.
These days you can always pay to hear whatever it is you want…..

After all that’s the backbone of our new age select baseball….

Want to hear and need to hear are oftentimes two very different things. Thank you sir.
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:54 PM   #14
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Following


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Old 12-01-2021, 08:14 AM   #15
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Can't wait. Son is a jr.
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Old 12-01-2021, 08:31 AM   #16
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My son is a junior and decided not to play fall baseball this year because of football. Hasn’t touched a bat or ball since September. Says he has started off hitting better than normal and arm feels good.


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Old 12-01-2021, 10:16 AM   #17
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My kid said he never puts a ball down. He will “light toss” twice a year for 3 weeks. I would imagine there is not a one size fits all. Kinda like weight training- every person should have a custom training regiment. Many different body types and different end results desired.

Good luck to all the kids
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:33 AM   #18
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Youngest is a preteen Select Ballplayer. Utility and pitcher. Loves the game and has studied "baseball knowledge" for years.

I require him to take 2 days off/week and the month of July. That's been our schedule since he was about 6. Other than that, we're working on skills all the time.

No injuries to speak of to date.
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Old 12-02-2021, 09:26 AM   #19
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I couldn’t agree more….

Long toss programs are absolutely important for arm strength. But every bit as important is dedicated time off- recovery time. 6-8 weeks of flat out not touching a ball…..

Far more injuries are happening these days because of the year round playing, kids who only specialize in baseball and never give their arm time to heal. College coaches want athletes guys, athletes who know how to succeed and fail in different sports. So many kids play year round, get to college and are burned out when they figure out it’s a job….

Take the time off, do speed and agility along with strength training. THEN start a throwing program. They will come back stronger and healthier…..

Hurt arms in February are from overthrowing- or working through the progression too fast when you do start throwing. Not from taking 100% necessary time off.

But what do I know….. lowly college and high school coach….
And if it makes you feel any better (because some people believe their select coach knows WAY more than their high school coach, who is probably some other kids select coach) almost 20 years of coaching select as well….
Well Sh-t now that I feel better I will get my Yeti Cup and hang out with the other Dads in right field.
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Old 12-02-2021, 09:52 AM   #20
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oldest is 14u right now, looking forward to following along here....
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:16 AM   #21
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My oldest finished his college career playing in the MLB Draft League for the Mahoning Valley Scrappers, and is now the grad assistant finishing his Masters. My youngest is about to turn 15 and play his first year of HS ball. I am super excited. My youngest was a bit of a late bloomer, and is just starting to tune it up. If he continues to progress he will be a pretty good ball player. My oldest peaked kinda early. He was a stud as a freshman, and just got marginally better as time went on. He had a great career though so I have no complaints. Hopefully my youngest follows in his footsteps.

As far as time off, I did see lots of kids through the years get hurt because they had not done any baseball work throughout the year, and show up the first day of practice and try to go all in. We hit 3-4 days a week, and throw about the same. Not pitch. Throw and take ground balls. We long toss about the same, but I can't long toss anymore, so I hit deep fly balls to him and have him throw them back. That kind of does two things-fly ball defense and long toss.
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:17 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by em12 View Post

Long toss programs are absolutely important for arm strength. But every bit as important is dedicated time off- recovery time. 6-8 weeks of flat out not touching a ball…..

Far more injuries are happening these days because of the year round playing, kids who only specialize in baseball and never give their arm time to heal. College coaches want athletes guys, athletes who know how to succeed and fail in different sports. So many kids play year round, get to college and are burned out when they figure out it’s a job….

Take the time off, do speed and agility along with strength training. THEN start a throwing program. They will come back stronger and healthier…..

Hurt arms in February are from overthrowing- or working through the progression too fast when you do start throwing. Not from taking 100% necessary time off.

But what do I know….. lowly college and high school coach….
And if it makes you feel any better (because some people believe their select coach knows WAY more than their high school coach, who is probably some other kids select coach) almost 20 years of coaching select as well….
BOOM!

BUT, injuries also occur from poor mechanics. As well as the kids arm not being in shape and throwing on an elevated mound. WHich tears an arm down


Late December is not enough time to gear up a players arm IMO. That is 4-5 weeks of throwing and going from 0 to full game action and 60-80 pitches off the mound.

Long toss/bullpen buildup is essential and no arm is ready to get on a mound after just starting to throw 2-3 weeks prior

Last edited by gingib; 12-02-2021 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:19 AM   #23
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Well Sh-t now that I feel better I will get my Yeti Cup and hang out with the other Dads in right field.
Is that sarcasm or are you being serious?

Quick question. You say you have been playing and coaching for years. Where did you play and what level did you coach? Just curious.

But then again, what do I know? Me and ole em12 are just lowly high school baseball coaches that have the best interest of the kid in mind, rather than money.
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by COACH_EM_UP View Post
Is that sarcasm or are you being serious?

Quick question. You say you have been playing and coaching for years. Where did you play and what level did you coach? Just curious.

But then again, what do I know? Me and ole em12 are just lowly high school baseball coaches that have the best interest of the kid in mind, rather than money.
I hope its sarcasm

But there are alot of dads nowadays who are glorified select coaches and think they know the game of baseball at an advanced level.

Ask me how I know
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:26 AM   #25
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I will agree Dad and coaching usually not a good match. My kids organization had some coaches that had kids on another team not the one they coached. Jeff Kent was the exception as he coached his kid but can say I’m guessing his kid wished he didn’t from my observations
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:58 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by COACH_EM_UP View Post
Is that sarcasm or are you being serious?

Quick question. You say you have been playing and coaching for years. Where did you play and what level did you coach? Just curious.

But then again, what do I know? Me and ole em12 are just lowly high school baseball coaches that have the best interest of the kid in mind, rather than money.
Just a joke Coach that’s why I said yeti cup and right field. I never said HS coaches are bad or they don’t know baseball. Just having a little fun on a topic and talking baseball and everyone’s opinion and some take things the wrong way sorry.
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:12 AM   #27
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I hope its sarcasm

But there are alot of dads nowadays who are glorified select coaches and think they know the game of baseball at an advanced level.

Ask me how I know
How do you know?

Me? I’m the Dad with a Yeti cup and flip flops. My son is a sophomore and I try to keep quiet and only encourage him because I know his playing days are coming to an end.

Now…whats your story?
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:15 AM   #28
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How do you know?

Me? I’m the Dad with a Yeti cup and flip flops. My son is a sophomore and I try to keep quiet and only encourage him because I know his playing days are coming to an end.

Now…whats your story?
I am or did not say he was, as I do not know him

How do I know there are many dads who coach and think they know the game? Its easy to see
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:29 AM   #29
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I am or did not say he was, as I do not know him

How do I know there are many dads who coach and think they know the game? Its easy to see
So you said "ask me how I know". I'm asking you what your background is as I've told you mine. You always seem to dodge this question when asked.

You obviously seem to be tied to the game but take every chance you get...particularly on the "Select Baseball" thread...to disparage the game and the parents that are only trying to brag on their kids and perhaps learn from others.

If you have ties to the game and presumably at least a former love for the game, why not try to help guide some of these 9U Dads with word of wisdom rather that negative garbage you always post?
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:31 AM   #30
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I have been a varsity baseball coach. I have coached all three of my boys select teams. I still help as a pitching coach for their organization. I can tell you that there are good high school coaches that add value. But there are some that have no clue what they are saying. One told my son who was struggling on the mound that he didn't know what he was doing wrong but he needed to fix it. Some schools just have an endless amount of talent that feeds into them. Some coaches are just lucky enough that they get the job and inherit the kids that have been taught how to play at a young age. There is a big difference in inheriting talent vs developing talent.
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:58 AM   #31
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Guys this has turned in a bad direction. I have a ton of respect for College,HS and Select coaches as they do a job most parents can’t do or won’t do. They mold your kids into good people and athletes and if some work hard they get the opportunity to play at the next level which we all hope happens one day if you love the game. We don’t need resumes or coaching levels to have a conversation about a game we all like to play or watch. I have helped a ton of kids over the years and coached select ball for many years and for the record have not taken a dime from the parents.

I know baseball is a bad subject at times and people like myself make comments they shouldn’t, but let’s remember it’s about the kids. If you have some advice that helps great. Sorry I started this topic like I always do come baseball season or as it approaches, but I’m not getting in a pissing match over a game or with people I have know idea what they have done or haven’t done. Good Luck to all the players this year!
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:00 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShockValue View Post
So you said "ask me how I know". I'm asking you what your background is as I've told you mine. You always seem to dodge this question when asked.

You obviously seem to be tied to the game but take every chance you get...particularly on the "Select Baseball" thread...to disparage the game and the parents that are only trying to brag on their kids and perhaps learn from others.

If you have ties to the game and presumably at least a former love for the game, why not try to help guide some of these 9U Dads with word of wisdom rather that negative garbage you always post?


lets here it gingi, answer the question.
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:22 PM   #33
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I will give my 2 cents on rest. Kids need rest. I’m not a fan of putting down a baseball for x time. Absolutely no negative effects of just tossing a ball and it keeps the movement natural and will let the kid stay limber. I can’t say my kid throws with effort year around but he does pick up a ball everyday- It’s kinda his comfort zone. He has a schedule and effort level he is going to put out. Weights same. What most coaches and programs lack in is macro diet and body care.
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:56 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ShockValue View Post
So you said "ask me how I know". I'm asking you what your background is as I've told you mine. You always seem to dodge this question when asked.

You obviously seem to be tied to the game but take every chance you get...particularly on the "Select Baseball" thread...to disparage the game and the parents that are only trying to brag on their kids and perhaps learn from others.

If you have ties to the game and presumably at least a former love for the game, why not try to help guide some of these 9U Dads with word of wisdom rather that negative garbage you always post?
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Old 12-02-2021, 01:26 PM   #35
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To all of these arm care experts in here throwing around their coaching credentials, so you coach HS baseball and now you are an Exercise Physiologist and Biomechanist?

Please educate us, those who piped up from the coaches box. What does a shutdown mean? How long should it last? What does a ramp up look like and how long should it last. For those saying kids shouldn’t start throwing yet, how do you take a pitcher from not throwing at all in mid December to full effort off the mound February 1st? You are going to go from zero to 100% effort in 45 days or less? You are more dangerous to kids arms than the dads you are dogging in this thread.

Lastly, where did you gain this “knowledge” you are spouting? Do you read the medical literature from ASMI? Follow any of the current sports medicine thought leaders on training overhand athletes? I am going to bet no based on the outdated crap you are posting.

Lastly, do you have any guess as to when the majority of arm injuries happen? Early in the season….from throwing on an unconditioned arm because some dumb *** coach told you not to pick up a ball until Christmas but then asked you to throw at game speed a month later for tryouts and early season tournaments.

Put down your ego, stop throwing your job title around as some lame appeal to authority to win an internet argument and actually educate yourself so you can protect the arms of these kids you claim to care about. Imagine being so lazy you can’t be bothered to stay up to date on the most important aspect of the job you wear like a super hero cape
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Old 12-02-2021, 01:39 PM   #36
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To all of these arm care experts in here throwing around their coaching credentials, so you coach HS baseball and now you are an Exercise Physiologist and Biomechanist?

Please educate us, those who piped up from the coaches box. What does a shutdown mean? How long should it last? What does a ramp up look like and how long should it last. For those saying kids shouldn’t start throwing yet, how do you take a pitcher from not throwing at all in mid December to full effort off the mound February 1st? You are going to go from zero to 100% effort in 45 days or less? You are more dangerous to kids arms than the dads you are dogging in this thread.

Lastly, where did you gain this “knowledge” you are spouting? Do you read the medical literature from ASMI? Follow any of the current sports medicine thought leaders on training overhand athletes? I am going to bet no based on the outdated crap you are posting.

Lastly, do you have any guess as to when the majority of arm injuries happen? Early in the season….from throwing on an unconditioned arm because some dumb *** coach told you not to pick up a ball until Christmas but then asked you to throw at game speed a month later for tryouts and early season tournaments.

Put down your ego, stop throwing your job title around as some lame appeal to authority to win an internet argument and actually educate yourself so you can protect the arms of these kids you claim to care about. Imagine being so lazy you can’t be bothered to stay up to date on the most important aspect of the job you wear like a super hero cape
salty
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Old 12-02-2021, 01:55 PM   #37
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Guys this has turned in a bad direction. I have a ton of respect for College,HS and Select coaches as they do a job most parents can’t do or won’t do. They mold your kids into good people and athletes and if some work hard they get the opportunity to play at the next level which we all hope happens one day if you love the game. We don’t need resumes or coaching levels to have a conversation about a game we all like to play or watch. I have helped a ton of kids over the years and coached select ball for many years and for the record have not taken a dime from the parents.

I know baseball is a bad subject at times and people like myself make comments they shouldn’t, but let’s remember it’s about the kids. If you have some advice that helps great. Sorry I started this topic like I always do come baseball season or as it approaches, but I’m not getting in a pissing match over a game or with people I have know idea what they have done or haven’t done. Good Luck to all the players this year!
Thanks for starting the thread…. I wasn’t trying to initiate an argument either so I apologize if I did. I was trying to give an opinion….. my wife frequently tells me my opinions can sometimes come across a certain way. Again, if it did I’m sorry.

We need Dads showing up bringing kids and supporting them, Coaches willing to give their time, and kids who have a continued energy for the game. If Coaches are in it for the wrong reason after a few years they figure out how hard it is to make a living and burn themselves out of the game.

Training is different for everyone, figure out what’s best for y’all. I know what I’ll have my 6 and 3 year old do as they get older…… and I’ll also do everything I can every year to relearn what I do wrong that can be done better.

The plate is 17 inches at every level guys- hopefully everyone is after the same goal.

Fantastic speech from the 96 ABCA below from a guy who knew a thing or two- worth your read if you’ve got time.

https://www.sperrybaseballlife.com/stay-at-17-inches/
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Old 12-02-2021, 02:34 PM   #38
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To all of these arm care experts in here throwing around their coaching credentials, so you coach HS baseball and now you are an Exercise Physiologist and Biomechanist?

Please educate us, those who piped up from the coaches box. What does a shutdown mean? How long should it last? What does a ramp up look like and how long should it last. For those saying kids shouldn’t start throwing yet, how do you take a pitcher from not throwing at all in mid December to full effort off the mound February 1st? You are going to go from zero to 100% effort in 45 days or less? You are more dangerous to kids arms than the dads you are dogging in this thread.

Lastly, where did you gain this “knowledge” you are spouting? Do you read the medical literature from ASMI? Follow any of the current sports medicine thought leaders on training overhand athletes? I am going to bet no based on the outdated crap you are posting.

Lastly, do you have any guess as to when the majority of arm injuries happen? Early in the season….from throwing on an unconditioned arm because some dumb *** coach told you not to pick up a ball until Christmas but then asked you to throw at game speed a month later for tryouts and early season tournaments.

Put down your ego, stop throwing your job title around as some lame appeal to authority to win an internet argument and actually educate yourself so you can protect the arms of these kids you claim to care about. Imagine being so lazy you can’t be bothered to stay up to date on the most important aspect of the job you wear like a super hero cape
You sir are right! I have absolutely no idea what I’m talking about.

What I said is that I could not agree more with the sentiment that you need to take time off. What I know is from experience…. And my experience **** sure tells me I’m not throwing an arm at 100% from the mound on February 1st for a preseason tournament that means absolutely nothing…. Or that I’m ranking arm strength off of a tryout when any kid I don’t already know most likely hasn’t thrown since last year…..


But I’m not a Doctor….
Or in medical sales…..

So as I said you are absolutely right and I have no idea what I’m talking about. Thank you for the enlightening information. Now please educate me, how can I use that to be beneficial to me? What are the current sports medicine thoughts on training overhand athletes? What does a shutdown mean? How long should it last? What does a ramp up look like and how long should it last.

I am positive I do not know the most advanced medically accurate answers to those, I just know what I’ve learned along the way. Please teach me 👍
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Old 12-02-2021, 02:43 PM   #39
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I am no expert and have zero playing experience. My HS had no baseball. I was a football guy. My oldest wanted to play so I got into coaching by being roped in at LL signups. I hate losing so I made it my mission to get myself educated. I have about 17 years of coaching at the LL and select levels, but I went to every lesson my son went to, and every showcase and tried to soak up at much information as I could from those coaches. I also umpired for about 6 years, and did the same. I learned a lot from being on the field watching coaches ply their trade. Does that make me an expert-absolutely not, but it does give me a bit of knowledge.

I say all that to say this....I think kids can play to much, get burned out, and get injured. I also think that when you come out for baseball in January and you haven't touched a ball in 8 months that is almost as bad. My oldest boys first year of JuCo ball we had multiple arm injuries on the team within the first 2 weeks. I believe because they went from doing nothing to all in to quickly. My son pitched 2 years of JuCo ball (which is really like 4 years because they play twice as many games), then 3 years of D1 ball. He got an extra year because of Covid. For the last 3 years he averaged 125 pitches per game, and 8 plus innings per game. He threw 154 pitches twice, and never had any injuries. He threw year round, not pitched year round since the age of 13. To be fair he was not a max effort pitcher. He sat 87-88 with an occasional 90. Keeping your arm in shape along with good mechanics reduces the likelihood of injury in my opinion.
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Old 12-02-2021, 04:14 PM   #40
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@em12

I am glad you engaged, but I didn’t claim or stand behind any credentials so there is no need to go there. I am just a dad trying to help my boys stay as healthy as possible doing what they love.

And to refresh your memory a bit, what you said is that you absolutely agree that kids should not start throwing until mid December and then you went further to say they should not touch a ball for 6-8 weeks.

Let’s talk about the first one. You agreed that kids should not throw before mid December, that was the statement you quoted and said “ I couldn’t agree more”. Which kids? All kids? Just the kids that played fall baseball or the kids who haven’t picked up a ball since summer baseball? Are we talking about a 14 year old Freshman with open growth plates and lots of new uncoordinated soft tissue from growing 6 inches over the summer or an 18 year old fully mature kid with a structured training program and excellent tissue quality? Are we talking about a pitcher who threw 100 competitive innings since last February or a 1B who threw less than 100 throws at full effort all year?

As to not throwing a kid 100% on February 1st after not picking up a ball until mid December, what intensity level do you have them throw at in these competitive environments you’ve put them into on a 45 day ramp up? How do you measure and manage that intensity? Do you have some magical methods to get high school boys to compete at less than 100% effort.

As to the 6-8 week shutdown….which is it? 6 weeks or 8 weeks? That’s a 25% variance. When does this shutdown start, right after the last game they play? Do you prescribe an off ramp or just a hard shut down after the last out?

Let me be clear, I don’t disagree that kids need to take time off. If that means play other sports, structured shutdowns as part of a well designed arm care plan or whatever. The problem with blanket statements like “kids should not throw before mid December ” or “kids should shut down for 6-8 weeks” is they are lazy and potentially dangerous without context. Worse, this kind of blanket statement gets made and then immediately supported by “ I’m a coach and I know best because well, I’m a coach with x years of experience and I have seen stuff”.


So to answer you final question, which I doubt you really want answered….it depends. It depends on the kids age, fitness, past workload, position, etc…

I will tell you this, the current thinking of “put the ball down and don’t pick it up at all for X time” has largely been replaced by modulation of intensity. There are specific physiological reasons for this related to the better understanding of how the body heals itself.

Take for example an ACL surgery. Not long ago if you had an ACL surgery you would be immobilized for a period of time and then start PT and then gradually return to full function. Now when you have one of these procedures they will start a series of exercises in the recovery room immediately after the surgery. The reason for this is a better understanding of how the body heals from trauma, particularly in high stress and high use joints like knees, shoulders etc….the Cliff’s notes version is that as the body generates new tissue to repair trauma you want to organize that tissue to the specific demands it will carry as it’s formed, not after. If you have micro tears in your tissue the body has healing cells that will turn into whatever type of tissue is damaged and fill in the damaged area. These new tissues are weak until they get directionally organized by a load. The best time to do this is as the tissue forms or as soon after as possible.

This same principle is applied to the trauma caused by a long year of throwing. When you stop, the body starts to repair the trauma caused by a long season. Light tossing a few times a week is proven to be better for your arm and reduces injury risk during the following ramp up phase compared to hard shutdown with no throwing.

With a hard shutdown for 6-8 weeks the trauma of a long year is healing, if not why shut down, right? All of your healing is done with no load so the new tissue your body has formed during healing is not organized for the demands you will place on it. Now it’s mid December and you have 45 days to ramp up. This new tissue needs time to adapt to the specific load and 45 days is not enough when starting cold. This new tissue is vulnerable to breaking down because soft tissue is organized directionally. New tissue is just a blob until it gets worked. Your hard shutdown kids are like that ACL patient from years past that didn’t get exercised in the recovery room but now coach needs you to throw a couple of innings in an early scrimmage. But hey, just don’t throw 100%….

Those kids would be better off doing a gradual deload after they stop competing, hit the weight room hard while light tossing at 60 feet a few times a week and doing other motor patterning work like bands. Without the high intensity of competition they will begin the healing process you want but the new tissue will be organized and stronger from the start, like the ACL patient who started rehab in the recovery room, when you start to ramp up…..I still wouldn’t wait until mid December though to start increasing intensity but what do I know, I am just a dad.

Last edited by TXJIM; 12-02-2021 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 12-02-2021, 04:54 PM   #41
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@em12

I am glad you engaged, but I didn’t claim or stand behind any credentials so there is no need to go there. I am just a dad trying to help my boys stay as healthy as possible doing what they love.

And to refresh your memory a bit, what you said is that you absolutely agree that kids should not start throwing until mid December and then you went further to say they should not touch a ball for 6-8 weeks.

Let’s talk about the first one. You agreed that kids should not throw before mid December, that was the statement you quoted and said “ I couldn’t agree more”. Which kids? All kids? Just the kids that played fall baseball or the kids who haven’t picked up a ball since summer baseball? Are we talking about a 14 year old Freshman with open growth plates and lots of new uncoordinated soft tissue from growing 6 inches over the summer or an 18 year old fully mature kid with a structured training program and excellent tissue quality? Are we talking about a pitcher who threw 100 competitive innings since last February or a 1B who threw less than 100 throws at full effort all year?

As to not throwing a kid 100% on February 1st after not picking up a ball until mid December, what intensity level do you have them throw at in these competitive environments you’ve put them into on a 45 day ramp up? How do you measure and manage that intensity? Do you have some magical methods to get high school boys to compete at less than 100% effort.

As to the 6-8 week shutdown….which is it? 6 weeks or 8 weeks? That’s a 25% variance. When does this shutdown start, right after the last game they play? Do you prescribe an off ramp or just a hard shut down after the last out?

Let me be clear, I don’t disagree that kids need to take time off. If that means play other sports, structured shutdowns as part of a well designed arm care plan or whatever. The problem with blanket statements like “kids should not throw before mid December ” or “kids should shut down for 6-8 weeks” is they are lazy and potentially dangerous without context. Worse, this kind of blanket statement gets made and then immediately supported by “ I’m a coach and I know best because well, I’m a coach with x years of experience and I have seen stuff”.


So to answer you final question, which I doubt you really want answered….it depends. It depends on the kids age, fitness, past workload, position, etc…

I will tell you this, the current thinking of “put the ball down and don’t pick it up at all for X time” has largely been replaced by modulation of intensity. There are specific physiological reasons for this related to the better understanding of how the body heals itself.

Take for example an ACL surgery. Not long ago if you had an ACL surgery you would be immobilized for a period of time and then start PT and then gradually return to full function. Now when you have one of these procedures they will start a series of exercises in the recovery room immediately after the surgery. The reason for this is a better understanding of how the body heals from trauma, particularly in high stress and high use joints like knees, shoulders etc….the Cliff’s notes version is that as the body generates new tissue to repair trauma you want to organize that tissue to the specific demands it will carry as it’s formed, not after. If you have micro tears in your tissue the body has healing cells that will turn into whatever type of tissue is damaged and fill in the damaged area. These new tissues are weak until they get directionally organized by a load. The best time to do this is as the tissue forms or as soon after as possible.

This same principle is applied to the trauma caused by a long year of throwing. When you stop, the body starts to repair the trauma caused by a long season. Light tossing a few times a week is proven to be better for your arm and reduces injury risk during the following ramp up phase compared to hard shutdown with no throwing.

With a hard shutdown for 6-8 weeks the trauma of a long year is healing, if not why shut down, right? All of your healing is done with no load so the new tissue your body has formed during healing is not organized for the demands you will place on it. Now it’s mid December and you have 45 days to ramp up. This new tissue needs time to adapt to the specific load and 45 days is not enough when starting cold. This new tissue is vulnerable to breaking down because soft tissue is organized directionally. New tissue is just a blob until it gets worked. Your hard shutdown kids are like that ACL patient from years past that didn’t get exercised in the recovery room but now coach needs you to throw a couple of innings in an early scrimmage. But hey, just don’t throw 100%….

Those kids would be better off doing a gradual deload after they stop competing, hit the weight room hard while light tossing at 60 feet a few times a week and doing other motor patterning work like bands. Without the high intensity of competition they will begin the healing process you want but the new tissue will be organized and stronger from the start, like the ACL patient who started rehab in the recovery room, when you start to ramp up…..I still wouldn’t wait until mid December though to start increasing intensity but what do I know, I am just a dad.
Thank you- first reaction for me is a sarcastic snap back- kids are different this and that- situations are different and so forth. I generalized a statement not intending to be specific to a hundred different situations. And you took it to be a one size fits all.

I don’t want to continue to go back and forth. Is it making you feel better? You schooled me 👍

Your kid throwing in East Cobb and the boy at Robinson High School who’s parents can’t afford a plane ticket are very different situations.
And all the reading and money spent in the world will never give you real life experience….. until enough time passes that it does. The only thing money can’t buy is time.

Thank you for your expertise sir- I sure do appreciate it.
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Old 12-02-2021, 05:06 PM   #42
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Just read thru this thread and the varying opinions. Many different views for sure. There is so much information out there now written by guys that have developed 100’s if not thousands of arms at the college and pro level. Their throwing protocols are all very similar. Intensity during competition is much different than light throwing in the off-season. Not once has my son been advised to completely stop throwing for 6-8 weeks if he is healthy. He was consistently touching 90 as a sophomore and was well conditioned going into this past summer. His HS coach never let him throw more than 80 pitches in an outing and gave him plenty of rest in between. This last July in his last event of the summer he tore his UCL and required internal brace TJ surgery. It wasn’t due to over use or lack of conditioning. It just happened. Dr. Meister in Arlington did the surgery. I asked him his advice on preventing arm injuries. Strength is the biggest factor. Building the muscles prevents a lot of throwing injuries. Find the podcasts by guys like Josh Rudd at Flatground pitching. The guys on those podcasts are some of the best in the business.
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Old 12-02-2021, 05:22 PM   #43
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Thank you- first reaction for me is a sarcastic snap back- kids are different this and that- situations are different and so forth. I generalized a statement not intending to be specific to a hundred different situations. And you took it to be a one size fits all.

I don’t want to continue to go back and forth. Is it making you feel better? You schooled me 👍

Your kid throwing in East Cobb and the boy at Robinson High School who’s parents can’t afford a plane ticket are very different situations.
And all the reading and money spent in the world will never give you real life experience….. until enough time passes that it does. The only thing money can’t buy is time.

Thank you for your expertise sir- I sure do appreciate it.

Nice parsing of your words. There are dads of younger players in this thread who have posted that they are following to learn something. You come in to the thread and make a statement then use your job as a coach to add weight to your statement. Now you didn’t mean every kid? You could type “it depends on the kid or the situation” just as fast as the you typed your original response. If you are going to act like an authority on the subject you have some responsibility to be accurate for the sake of those who might take your advice as written.

As to you scrambling around my old post to find ammo to make a personal attack, that says a lot about you as a person and your comfort about your knowledge of the subject at hand…..and neither look good.
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Old 12-02-2021, 05:32 PM   #44
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Don’t forget to dust off the bats & reinforce proper hitting mechanics & start doing some cage work
I see a lot of rust needing knocked off in the hitting arena if it’s been awhile for many
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Old 12-02-2021, 05:35 PM   #45
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Again, you are right- I should have better specified.

For the Dads of younger kids….. you don’t have to pay a million dollars or play 365 to be a good ball player. Take a break every once in a while.

No scrambling- you showed me it’s a good plan to research- I learned.

No personal attack- if you feel convicted that’s on you. Your welcome to call me and have a conversation if you have anything to say about my character or integrity. I’ll pm you my number so you have it. Those two things are again something money can’t buy, and I take mine very seriously.

And I originally stated as far as subject matter….. what do I know ��*♂️
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Old 12-02-2021, 06:09 PM   #46
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And don’t weight train your kids unless you understand the athletic movements you are trying to accomplish. I am a gym ray of 30 years. Baseball kids need deceleration muscles and long lean quick twitch training. I have been lucky and been able to sit down with two great baseball muscle trainers and it was eye opening.
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Old 12-03-2021, 09:11 AM   #47
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Son does parkour & informal gymnastics outside of baseball.

Outside of that; walking lunges, box jumps, and supervised seated leg press.

His diet is tops. Protein intake is always about 1.25grams/pound of body weight a day. He's ripped and other parents ask how he's doing it. His muscle fiber striations are visible from his shoulders to his core after exercise.

I'm watching it closely and adding more fats to his diet. Even extra bacon several times a week.
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Old 12-03-2021, 09:28 AM   #48
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So you said "ask me how I know". I'm asking you what your background is as I've told you mine. You always seem to dodge this question when asked.

You obviously seem to be tied to the game but take every chance you get...particularly on the "Select Baseball" thread...to disparage the game and the parents that are only trying to brag on their kids and perhaps learn from others.

If you have ties to the game and presumably at least a former love for the game, why not try to help guide some of these 9U Dads with word of wisdom rather that negative garbage you always post?
I have been around and coaching the game more then anyone here. And am around it almost daily in some capacity. And went to college for exercise science/sports medicine.


I didn't post any negative garbage. Just voicing opinions on something I know alot about. Sorry you don't like to hear it.

Actually I am breaking down film now on a pitcher. I speak from experience as I have been under the knife twice in direct relation to the topic of this thread, and have lived and learned alot on the sport.

Sorry if you don't agree some dads are idiots and think they know alot
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Old 12-03-2021, 10:06 AM   #49
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first ever reply after years lurking on this site, reluctantly replying because it's my business but I do feel obligated to pass some thoughts along...27 plus years employed in scouting and player development for the same MLB team (with pitching as my speciality), and I'm also the father of a kid who pitched/played since 11U with a premium travel outfit and is currently on the roster of a perennial Top 10 collegiate team and College World Series participant 2 of the last 3 years...

What my experience and years tell me about arm care and it's relationship to training is simple...Most injuries occur due to either poor mechanics, a lack of strength, or throwing "too hard/too often" for his particular age, or overuse at a young age.

In this age where velocity and strength are king, alway keep in mind that nothing is a substitute for good mechanics and arm action...you can't continue to develop when poor mechanics or arm actions or overuse keep you off the field...

regarding travel ball, if you have a young player who is asked to pitch more than once a weekend or is used Thursday in pool play than again on Sunday, then you need to find another group...plenty of good options out there who do it right.

My son had internal brace surgery last Nov 1, and by September he was full-speed...it is a revolutionary procedure if done right and the throwing protocols are strictly followed (and done by a guy like his surgeon, Dr Keith Meister). In time it may replace the traditionally longer rehabbed Tommy John procedure...

Finally, regarding rest/arm buildup...I am not an advocate of completely shutting down throwing for any stretch longer than 2 weeks or so. I AM an advocate of shutting down 'competitive' throwing for a few months. The difference is the level of intensity of throwing...let your kids take a break from throwing bullpens or full-bore programs for a couple months post summer, but allow them to play light catch/simple 60 foot toss a 3 times week to keep their fingers on the ball and their basic throwing rhythm...

you ask 10 professionals about arm care, and you will get more than a few answers...it's more of an art than a science, but if I had one piece of advice for any youth parent or prospective young pitcher it would be keep the innings moderated until HS and focus early on clean and efficient mechanics and that alone will allow everything else to fall into place.
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Old 12-03-2021, 10:13 AM   #50
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first ever reply after years lurking on this site, reluctantly replying because it's my business but I do feel obligated to pass some thoughts along...27 plus years employed in scouting and player development for the same MLB team (with pitching as my speciality), and I'm also the father of a kid who pitched/played since 11U with a premium travel outfit and is currently on the roster of a perennial Top 10 collegiate team and College World Series participant 2 of the last 3 years...

What my experience and years tell me about arm care and it's relationship to training is simple...Most injuries occur due to either poor mechanics, a lack of strength, or throwing "too hard/too often" for his particular age, or overuse at a young age.

In this age where velocity and strength are king, alway keep in mind that nothing is a substitute for good mechanics and arm action...you can't continue to develop when poor mechanics or arm actions or overuse keep you off the field...

regarding travel ball, if you have a young player who is asked to pitch more than once a weekend or is used Thursday in pool play than again on Sunday, then you need to find another group...plenty of good options out there who do it right.

My son had internal brace surgery last Nov 1, and by September he was full-speed...it is a revolutionary procedure if done right and the throwing protocols are strictly followed (and done by a guy like his surgeon, Dr Keith Meister). In time it may replace the traditionally longer rehabbed Tommy John procedure...

Finally, regarding rest/arm buildup...I am not an advocate of completely shutting down throwing for any stretch longer than 2 weeks or so. I AM an advocate of shutting down 'competitive' throwing for a few months. The difference is the level of intensity of throwing...let your kids take a break from throwing bullpens or full-bore programs for a couple months post summer, but allow them to play light catch/simple 60 foot toss a 3 times week to keep their fingers on the ball and their basic throwing rhythm...

you ask 10 professionals about arm care, and you will get more than a few answers...it's more of an art than a science, but if I had one piece of advice for any youth parent or prospective young pitcher it would be keep the innings moderated until HS and focus early on clean and efficient mechanics and that alone will allow everything else to fall into place.
Bingo! Thanks for the response a lot of good info here.
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