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Old 01-17-2020, 12:13 PM   #101
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Read my post above. There were no rules in 2017 regarding video feeds or locations of live feed cameras. Kinda of like there were no rules against certain PED drugs in the 90’s. If there isn’t a rule against something that can increase odds of winning or performance, expect anyone smart enough to figure it out to take advantage of it....


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On March 31, 2001, executive vice-president of baseball operations Sandy Alderson sent teams a memo that restricted the use of electronic equipment during a game.

Such equipment and technology "could not be used for communications or for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a club an advantage."

Does the Method Matter?

Alderson mentioned nothing about using eyes, limbs, head, or any other part of the anatomy to obtain signs—only electronic equipment.


2018 Manfred tightened the restriction and was more specific, but it has been illegal for a while.
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:17 PM   #102
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When somebody starts a paragraph "I'm not trying to start an argument", the information immediately following will usually start an argument.


To answer your question.... yes.... but it also creates a whole slew of positive usage as well. Just like car did to horses and calculators did to abacuses. The difference here is everybody has access to them if they want ......
Oh i use them also. I think they serve a good purpose for alot of ranches for management practices etc... We own a small acreage ranch and we still use them. Anyhow, i went and searched some of the old threads. Probably shouldn't have brought this up on this thread.

I'm and Astros fan. They cheated, they got caught, it sucks.
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:18 PM   #103
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I agree with 99%. The one disagreement is that in 2017 it wasnít cheating. Does that mean I agree, no. Bc I agree with the rest of your statement.


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You keep saying this but I'm reading that the investigation included parts of 2018 as well. And in 2001 the MLB issued a memorandum banning the use of mechanical devices to steal signs.

The Astros and any other team that used a mechanical device to steal signs are wrong and should be punished accordingly. Take your whippin' and move on.
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:23 PM   #104
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Oh i use them also. I think they serve a good purpose for alot of ranches for management practices etc... We own a small acreage ranch and we still use them. Anyhow, i went and searched some of the old threads. Probably shouldn't have brought this up on this thread.

I'm and Astros fan. They cheated, they got caught, it sucks.



Somebody get the match for b-lat's gas..
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:28 PM   #105
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The integrity/skill of a human game is gone with electronics. Baseball wants the humanness(is that a word?) in the game or else Umpires could be replaced with switches on bags for calls, sensors in balls and gloves for contact and balls staying in play. Lasers on left and right field lines. Like I have said. I worked 11 years at a few stadiums and I can tell you. What I wrote above was tested by MLB back in the mid 90's. The Umpires Union, of course, was against it and from what I heard from a few involved that the fans they surveyed would not like that either. The technology is there. It is just not being used.
The 96 world series was the first time they put mikes and cams on the catcher's masks and mikes inside the bases. That is what the producer for Fox told us as our crew was installing the batteries in the bases, then turning them over to the grounds crew for field install. The technology was being integrated back then.
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:29 PM   #106
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I agree with 99%. The one disagreement is that in 2017 it wasnít cheating. Does that mean I agree, no. Bc I agree with the rest of your statement.


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Old school cheating= OK
New school cheating= Very bad.
All about integity
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:33 PM   #107
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The Astros and any other team that used a mechanical device to steal signs are wrong and should be punished accordingly. Take your whippin' and move on.
Yep
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Old 01-17-2020, 12:42 PM   #108
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From the Lastros to the Astros to the Asterisks

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Old 01-17-2020, 12:49 PM   #109
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So what was Altuve doing and saying as he approached home plate?

He was definitely saying no and grabbing/protecting his collar.

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They almost ripped his jersey off when he hit the HR that sent them to the WS. In his post game interview he claimed his wife wanted his jersey in 1 piece.
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:11 PM   #110
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They almost ripped his jersey off when he hit the HR that sent them to the WS. In his post game interview he claimed his wife wanted his jersey in 1 piece.



Saw that....some other Astros exec said he claimed he was shy.


Both are like....


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Old 01-17-2020, 01:14 PM   #111
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Astros' fans be like....







All other teams' fans be like...


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Old 01-17-2020, 01:23 PM   #112
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Y’all get back to us when they take that trophy back. Until then

Astros 1
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:26 PM   #113
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You keep saying this but I'm reading that the investigation included parts of 2018 as well. And in 2001 the MLB issued a memorandum banning the use of mechanical devices to steal signs.

The Astros and any other team that used a mechanical device to steal signs are wrong and should be punished accordingly. Take your whippin' and move on.
Yep, but why were the Yanks and Sox just slapped on the wrist for it in 2017? Why werent they hammered this severely? The good ole boy system in full swing(pun intended).

Wrong is wrong, I just hate seeing consequences for those wrongs unevenly applied.
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:28 PM   #114
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Yep, but why were the Yanks and Sox just slapped on the wrist for it in 2017? Why werent they hammered this severely? The good ole boy system in full swing(pun intended).

Wrong is wrong, I just hate seeing consequences for those wrongs unevenly applied.



I'm good with some retroactive punishment for them too..
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:31 PM   #115
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Yep, but why were the Yanks and Sox just slapped on the wrist for it in 2017? Why werent they hammered this severely? The good ole boy system in full swing(pun intended).

Wrong is wrong, I just hate seeing consequences for those wrongs unevenly applied.
This is exactly my point on this thread. MLB turning their head and allowing Astros to be led to the slaughterhouse, while pretending it wasn’t prevalent in the league.
A championship we waited 60 years for is being **** on to make a virtue-signaling statement
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:39 PM   #116
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Yíall get back to us when they take that trophy back. Until then

Astros 1
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And Houston is still Houston.
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:39 PM   #117
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One of Smart's windrlickers.




This^

Obviously baseball isn't for some of you. Tradition & integrity still have a place in the game for some of us. If you think the uproar is only about sign stealing, you're missing the whole point. Sign stealing has been & will forever continue to be part of the game, and I have absolutely no problem with that. It's when your not smart enough to do it right, (using only your ears & eyes to do it, analog-style) and must have cameras, microphones, buzzers, & other electronic **** that doesn't belong. Plain & simple, that's not gamesmanship, it's cheating.
basis this all sports should get rid of instant replay. i would argue they were smart enough to do it right but for a weasel (spiers) to rolled over. That's the whole problem with the logic of "it's ok to steal signs just not if you use electronic devices". Either signs are fair game or they aren't. are people so naive to think that every team doesn't have someone watching a live broadcast game trying to pick up on signs and do you honestly believe that that info can't be communicated back to the club house or dug out during the game? stop trying to prevent something and work a little harder on the defense coming up with a solution.
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:39 PM   #118
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Simple - the use of electronics and cameras undermines the intended ethics and integrity of the game. Cheating. Got caught and cannot justify.
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:49 PM   #119
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basis this all sports should get rid of instant replay. i would argue they were smart enough to do it right but for a weasel (spiers) to rolled over. That's the whole problem with the logic of "it's ok to steal signs just not if you use electronic devices". Either signs are fair game or they aren't. are people so naive to think that every team doesn't have someone watching a live broadcast game trying to pick up on signs and do you honestly believe that that info can't be communicated back to the club house or dug out during the game? stop trying to prevent something and work a little harder on the defense coming up with a solution.



Wow.... Instant replay helps teams gain an advantage over another team how?


You do know live broadcast games are on a 7-10 second delay don't you? The pitcher is on to the next pitch in real time by the time it comes around for the "live" broadcast viewer. Live broadcast is pretty useless in real time.

Last edited by Smart; 01-17-2020 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:58 PM   #120
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Maybe there should be a league where cheating and steroids are all allowed. Then they play the winners of the ďby the bookĒ league.
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:01 PM   #121
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Wow....Justification at its finest.


You do know live broadcast games are on a 7-10 second delay don't you? The pitcher is on to the next pitch in real time by the time it comes around for the "live" broadcast viewer. Live broadcast is pretty useless in real time.
I believe (I could be wrong) that he's saying that people are trying to figure out the signs, relay to the clubhouse, to help from that point on in the game/inning...not actual real time help so much as to help the players if someone gets on base and then use what they didn't figure out for themselves to help the batter. While not even remotely in the same realm of what Houston was proven to have done, it still is a load of bull in my opinion. If the players who are in the game (i.e. on the score card) figure it out, awesome...if someone else is watching the game on TV and relaying to the clubhouse and by proxy to the dugout, its just as wrong IMO

Of course a way to solve that would be to have a different set of signs for when runners get on
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:05 PM   #122
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Wow....Justification at its finest. Instant replay helps teams gain an advantage over another team how?


You do know live broadcast games are on a 7-10 second delay don't you? The pitcher is on to the next pitch in real time by the time it comes around for the "live" broadcast viewer. Live broadcast is pretty useless in real time.
Yes i do know that there is a delay but that's not the point i'm trying to make here. there is no justification, its the fact that they are trying to protect something that is already compromised. it's ok for a team to watch a broadcast, figure out the signs and then tell every base runner what those signs are and then communicate that to the batter but by god don't be using some electronic device. makes perfect sense.

again, focus on the defense doing something different to prevent it instead of making some ridiculous list of ways in which it's ok or not ok for the offense to steal signs
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:16 PM   #123
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I never was on the Astros bandwagon, but when I found out even ďOrbitĒ was involved, it was just too much. This needs to stop
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:41 PM   #124
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Understand that its has been part of the game but having a camera (technology) in outfield zoomed in / looped to a monitor in dugout or wherever is not part of the game and is way different than just figuring out calls on the field or watching film. that's just my $0.02

Go Rangers haha, take their natty champy out of the books! ‹
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:56 PM   #125
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Old 01-17-2020, 02:58 PM   #126
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You keep saying this but I'm reading that the investigation included parts of 2018 as well. And in 2001 the MLB issued a memorandum banning the use of mechanical devices to steal signs.



The Astros and any other team that used a mechanical device to steal signs are wrong and should be punished accordingly. Take your whippin' and move on.


Salty much?? Hahahahaha


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Old 01-17-2020, 03:02 PM   #127
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LMAO!!! That covers a lot of it!
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:02 PM   #128
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Salty much?? Hahahahaha


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Got me.
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:06 PM   #129
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If they punish the other teams for doing it, I won’t gripe and just go along. However, the Red Sox are repeat offenders of the very thing Manfred punished the Astros for. And NY and Boston were both disciplined for it once. So their punishment (especially Boston) should be more severe than the Astros
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:21 PM   #130
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Iím late to the party but letís see if I can rile up the haters a little bit

Sign stealing is part of the game. Like it or not. Whether itís with eyes and ears or cameras, every team does it from little league to the bigs. Fact. In college our bullpen coach was the guy who studied signs of other teams. Been that way since the game was created. Change your signs up if theyíre too easy to pick up!

Some guys have brought up PEDís in the 90ís. Baseball didnít do anything about it when they should have if they were going to, not later down the road. They did nothing when they should have because two of the biggest juicers saved the game when they were losing incredible numbers of viewers with the home run race in Ď98.

Cameras, video, PEDís, etc still donít change the fact that the pitcher still has to make the pitch, the batter still has .45 seconds to make a decision and then actually hit the ball if itís a strike, and the defense still has to make a play to get the batter out. Fact.

I canít hardly watch baseball these days because itís a joke with pitch clocks, no pitch intentional walks, instant replay to turn over calls, nets to block foul balls down the lines, short fences, no foul ball territory, even lower seams on the ball. The list goes on and on.

Last words... go Astros!!
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:27 PM   #131
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Iím late to the party but letís see if I can rile up the haters a little bit

Sign stealing is part of the game. Like it or not. Whether itís with eyes and ears or cameras, every team does it from little league to the bigs. Fact. In college our bullpen coach was the guy who studied signs of other teams. Been that way since the game was created. Change your signs up if theyíre too easy to pick up!

Some guys have brought up PEDís in the 90ís. Baseball didnít do anything about it when they should have if they were going to, not later down the road. They did nothing when they should have because two of the biggest juicers saved the game when they were losing incredible numbers of viewers with the home run race in Ď98.

Cameras, video, PEDís, etc still donít change the fact that the pitcher still has to make the pitch, the batter still has .45 seconds to make a decision and then actually hit the ball if itís a strike, and the defense still has to make a play to get the batter out. Fact.

I canít hardly watch baseball these days because itís a joke with pitch clocks, no pitch intentional walks, instant replay to turn over calls, nets to block foul balls down the lines, short fences, no foul ball territory, even lower seams on the ball. The list goes on and on.

Last words... go Astros!!
you sound like me with the nba...but you don't like the nets to block foul balls down the lines? not sure I follow...
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:48 PM   #132
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you sound like me with the nba...but you don't like the nets to block foul balls down the lines? not sure I follow...
Part of going to a baseball game as a spectator is catching a foul ball, the allure to getting seats up close behind the dugout and down the lines.
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:50 PM   #133
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Part of going to a baseball game as a spectator is catching a foul ball, the allure to getting seats up close behind the dugout and down the lines.
I always cringe though when that line drive screams past the dugout at someone staring at their phone...
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:56 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by diamond10x View Post
I’m late to the party but let’s see if I can rile up the haters a little bit

Sign stealing is part of the game. Like it or not. Whether it’s with eyes and ears or cameras, every team does it from little league to the bigs. Fact. In college our bullpen coach was the guy who studied signs of other teams. Been that way since the game was created. Change your signs up if they’re too easy to pick up!

Some guys have brought up PED’s in the 90’s. Baseball didn’t do anything about it when they should have if they were going to, not later down the road. They did nothing when they should have because two of the biggest juicers saved the game when they were losing incredible numbers of viewers with the home run race in ‘98.

Cameras, video, PED’s, etc still don’t change the fact that the pitcher still has to make the pitch, the batter still has .45 seconds to make a decision and then actually hit the ball if it’s a strike, and the defense still has to make a play to get the batter out. Fact.

I can’t hardly watch baseball these days because it’s a joke with pitch clocks, no pitch intentional walks, instant replay to turn over calls, nets to block foul balls down the lines, short fences, no foul ball territory, even lower seams on the ball. The list goes on and on.

Last words... go Astros!!
Real late, but I'll play....

Once again, sign stealing isn't the issue. If I want to look into your daughter's bedroom window, but can't see it from the ground, is it OK if I get a drone to do it?

You homers keep bringing up the PED sandal to justify the electronic sign stealing/buzzer tip-off scandal.

You don't think it's beneficial to a batter to KNOW what pitch is fixing to be thrown? Maybe that should be the punishment. The pitchers from the offending teams have to tell the batter what every pitch will be for a few seasons.

Like I said before, baseball isn't for everybody, it's kinda cerebral. Arena Football is fixing to start up, or maybe Japanese wrestling would better suit you.
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:00 PM   #135
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I think they should all start batting from the pitchers mound.
How about slinkies on their bats.

LOTB
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:01 PM   #136
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Real late, but I'll play....

Once again, sign stealing isn't the issue. If I want to look into your daughter's bedroom window, but can't see it from the ground, is it OK if I get a drone to do it?

You homers keep bringing up the PED sandal to justify the electronic sign stealing/buzzer tip-off scandal.

You don't think it's beneficial to a batter to KNOW what pitch is fixing to be thrown? Maybe that should be the punishment. The pitchers from the offending teams have to tell the batter what every pitch will be for a few seasons.

Like I said before, baseball isn't for everybody, it's kinda cerebral. Arena Football is fixing to start up, or maybe Japanese wrestling would better suit you.
Terrible analogy...other than that, I don't have an argument with the rest of your comment
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:01 PM   #137
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Real late, but I'll play....

Once again, sign stealing isn't the issue. If I want to look into your daughter's bedroom window, but can't see it from the ground, is it OK if I get a drone to do it?
Why don't you have a seat right over there.
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:05 PM   #138
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They almost ripped his jersey off when he hit the HR that sent them to the WS. In his post game interview he claimed his wife wanted his jersey in 1 piece.
So I guess not all the players didnít know he was possibly wearing a buzzer? Why would teammates want to expose that?
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:10 PM   #139
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So I guess not all the players didnít know he was possibly wearing a buzzer? Why would teammates want to expose that?


Valid point


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Old 01-17-2020, 04:12 PM   #140
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Terrible analogy...other than that, I don't have an argument with the rest of your comment

Possibly, but the point is, doing something with electronic help isn't quite the same thing as doing it without it.
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:12 PM   #141
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You homers keep bringing up the PED sandal to justify the electronic sign stealing/buzzer tip-off scandal.
.
It’s been a deflection to not answer valid questions the entire thread

Where do you draw the line?

Would it be different if it where the Nats?

... I’ll wait some more

Gotta agree with the terrible analogy part lol

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Old 01-17-2020, 04:19 PM   #142
diamond10x
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Real late, but I'll play....

Once again, sign stealing isn't the issue. If I want to look into your daughter's bedroom window, but can't see it from the ground, is it OK if I get a drone to do it?

You homers keep bringing up the PED sandal to justify the electronic sign stealing/buzzer tip-off scandal.

You don't think it's beneficial to a batter to KNOW what pitch is fixing to be thrown? Maybe that should be the punishment. The pitchers from the offending teams have to tell the batter what every pitch will be for a few seasons.

Like I said before, baseball isn't for everybody, it's kinda cerebral. Arena Football is fixing to start up, or maybe Japanese wrestling would better suit you.
Iím not bringing up PEDís as an excuse. I honestly could care less that guys juiced up, because at the end of the day they still had to pitch the ball, hit the ball, and catch the ball.

Knowing tendencies and the point in time during the game you can have a good idea what pitch is coming in what count, with or without video, buzzers, or mics. The batter is a lot of times going to take a peak at how the catcher is setting up. Sure itís beneficial but like I said, the pitcher still has to make the pitch, and the batter still has less than half a second to make a decision and make a good swing on the ball. Just because you know what pitch is coming doesnít determine the outcome, there is still all sorts of human error that come in. Itís no different than a pitcher knowing a batter swings at high fastballs on 2 strikes or curveballs in the dirt.

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Old 01-17-2020, 04:24 PM   #143
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Knowing tendencies and the point in time during the game you can have a good idea what pitch is coming in what count, with or without video, buzzers, or mics. The batter is a lot of times going to take a peak at how the catcher is setting up. Sure it’s beneficial but like I said, the pitcher still has to make the pitch, and the batter still has less than half a second to make a decision and make a good swing on the ball. Just because you know what pitch is coming doesn’t determine the outcome, there is still all sorts of human error that come in. It’s no different than a pitcher knowing a batter swings at high fastballs on 2 strikes or curveballs in the dirt.
Your saying it gives the batter no extra unfair advantage at all?

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Old 01-17-2020, 04:26 PM   #144
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I always cringe though when that line drive screams past the dugout at someone staring at their phone...
Darwin Award winner if you arenít paying attention.
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:35 PM   #145
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Knowing tendencies and the point in time during the game you can have a good idea what pitch is coming in what count, with or without video, buzzers, or mics. The batter is a lot of times going to take a peak at how the catcher is setting up. Sure it’s beneficial but like I said, the pitcher still has to make the pitch, and the batter still has less than half a second to make a decision and make a good swing on the ball. Just because you know what pitch is coming doesn’t determine the outcome, there is still all sorts of human error that come in. It’s no different than a pitcher knowing a batter swings at high fastballs on 2 strikes or curveballs in the dirt.



Uncle Uncle uncle.........You are severally undervaluing the element of deception with speed changes and the not knowing here. If you know what's coming you are at a huge advantage as a hitter.... I'm not going to put a % value on it because I would be guessing but it's higher than what you are giving it credit for. It's got to be up towards 40-50% of the hitting concept if I were to guess. There is no sit fastball hit breaking pitch in this instance....It's now sit and wait for the fastball.....or hit the BP after two bangs if you see it well and it's in the zone. I hear you on the sneak a peak but most catchers don't seem to allow it.....You can see them looking up all the time to make sure before they give the signs..

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Old 01-17-2020, 04:40 PM   #146
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Your saying it gives the batter no extra unfair advantage at all?
The batter still has to make a good swing and square the ball up. a perfectly hit ball can still end up in a fielderís glove.
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:45 PM   #147
Jcjohnson
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The batter still has to make a good swing and square the ball up. a perfectly hit ball can still end up in a fielderís glove.
I get that, but I was more asking a yes or no question. Does it give the batter an unfair advantage?
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:45 PM   #148
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Uncle Uncle uncle.........You are severally undervaluing the element of deception with speed changes and the not knowing here. If you know what's coming you are at a huge advantage as a hitter.... I'm not going to put a % value on it because I would be guessing but it's higher than what you are giving it credit for. It's got to be up towards 40-50% of the hitting concept if I were to guess. There is no sit fastball hit breaking pitch in this instance....It's now sit and wait for the fastball.....or hit the BP after two bangs if you see it well and it's in the zone. I hear you on the sneak a peak but most catchers don't seem to allow it.....You can see them looking up all the time to make sure before they give the signs..
No trash can banging on the road and better offensive numbers across the board in 2017. I don't think it was very helpful. Certainly doesn't excuse the act but I doubt it made any difference in the eventual outcome of the season.
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:49 PM   #149
cj7zrcool
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The batter still has to make a good swing and square the ball up. a perfectly hit ball can still end up in a fielderís glove.
We're not talking about batting average. If you're facing Thor Syndergaard, would you rather know what pitch is coming before you settle in, or not? Exactly....
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Old 01-17-2020, 04:49 PM   #150
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The batter still has to make a good swing and square the ball up. a perfectly hit ball can still end up in a fielderís glove.



We are talking MLB hitters here that can crush a 100 mph fastball without blinking an eye. See Altuve off Chapman in '17. See a 98-100 mph pitcher when they don't have any movement on their FB or they don't have control of their changeup/BP that day an the batters can sit back and hit the only pitch they can get over for a strike. If they know what is coming you have removed a pitchers main defense against them.....deception. It's would be like a BP pitcher sitting up there calling their pitches during batting practice.
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