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Old 09-01-2019, 04:33 PM   #1
Mexico
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Default "Culling Doesn't Work in Wild Populations"

Great video, and massive amounts of research...

https://go.mossyoak.com/videos/the-c...er-scope-films
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Old 09-01-2019, 05:20 PM   #2
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Interesting - I know Donnie from the Comanche and he is good as they get.

Seems to me something not mentioned in this video/study is the fact that culling mouths (doe or sub par bucks) leaves more of the browse/supplemental feed for the remaining deer to consume which in turn enhances their growth.

The question not answered for me is this - if you are on a ranch with superior genetics/management/browse and you have an 8 point buck you have watched for 4 years. He is a basic 8 point and most of your bucks are 10 points up to 20 points. Even though (as the study states) that 8 point could have some better genes in him that what he is showing if you are going to thin your herd to keep the population/mouths down would you not want to cull that 8 point as opposed to culling bigger deer?
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Old 09-01-2019, 05:22 PM   #3
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https://media2.giphy.com/media/UlqLDtI8Qc0j6/giphy.gif


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Old 09-01-2019, 05:31 PM   #4
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Hunting fool nailed it----and take the does early leaving more browse for the remaining deer later in the season when food is scarcer.
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Old 09-01-2019, 05:37 PM   #5
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I think it sounds like a gamble. For instance, I had a 7 point last year that was a 4 yr old. Decent frame but no brow tine on his left side. Didn't shoot him mostly cause I didn't want to waste a management tag on him. I ended up shooting another 7 point with almost the exact same frame only he was 5.

This year after seeing a lot of those same type genetics I'm going to take this guy out first chance I get. Point being I think a lot folks before me let deer like this walk and now we have a lot of these type genes running through the herd. We also have some really good genetics but not as many. If this was true I think the majority of free range deer would be sired by the older more impressive deer. Which in most cases is the norm.

I think our current majority gene pool leader are short tines and missing brows. Very common trait on our lease. Why are there so many deer with less than desirable racks at different age classes if the genetic trait was not passed down.
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Old 09-01-2019, 05:52 PM   #6
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No Popcorn needed - just a civil discussion which is what this hunting forum should be about. I love to be open to new ideas and management versus the old way of doing things. IMO both have merit
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:13 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Huntingfool View Post
Interesting - I know Donnie from the Comanche and he is good as they get.

Seems to me something not mentioned in this video/study is the fact that culling mouths (doe or sub par bucks) leaves more of the browse/supplemental feed for the remaining deer to consume which in turn enhances their growth.

The question not answered for me is this - if you are on a ranch with superior genetics/management/browse and you have an 8 point buck you have watched for 4 years. He is a basic 8 point and most of your bucks are 10 points up to 20 points. Even though (as the study states) that 8 point could have some better genes in him that what he is showing if you are going to thin your herd to keep the population/mouths down would you not want to cull that 8 point as opposed to culling bigger deer?
This. We don't "cull" thinking we're cleansing the genetic pool of undesirable traits. We harvest select deer to free up resources for those that do have the desired traits.
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:13 PM   #8
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Meateater podcast just covered "genetics" a few weeks back. Better food/diets will improve the herd in 2-3 generations far more than "culling genetics" will affect it.
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Huntingfool View Post
Interesting - I know Donnie from the Comanche and he is good as they get.

Seems to me something not mentioned in this video/study is the fact that culling mouths (doe or sub par bucks) leaves more of the browse/supplemental feed for the remaining deer to consume which in turn enhances their growth.

The question not answered for me is this - if you are on a ranch with superior genetics/management/browse and you have an 8 point buck you have watched for 4 years. He is a basic 8 point and most of your bucks are 10 points up to 20 points. Even though (as the study states) that 8 point could have some better genes in him that what he is showing if you are going to thin your herd to keep the population/mouths down would you not want to cull that 8 point as opposed to culling bigger deer?
I'm a huge believer of taking your worst " bull " out of the pasture, but only to keep the range in better shape for my more promising deer. But, you must realize he has already breed so much that his genetic footprint will remain ( or his patriarch has). You're delirious if you think by removing him his genetic landscape is gone. There is no perfect recipe, just found this one interesting since so much effort and data was established to make a simple sentence " culling does not work in wild populations".
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:16 PM   #10
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Meateater podcast just covered "genetics" a few weeks back. Better food/diets will improve the herd in 2-3 generations far more than "culling genetics" will affect it.
Agree - but what if you do BOTH ? More bang for your buck?
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:23 PM   #11
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I'm a huge believer of taking your worst " bull " out of the pasture, but only to keep the range in better shape for my more promising deer. But, you must realize he has already breed so much that his genetic footprint will remain ( or his patriarch has). You're delirious if you think by removing him his genetic landscape is gone. There is no perfect recipe, just found this one interesting since so much effort and data was established to make a simple sentence " culling does not work in wild populations".
Never been told I was "delirious" LOL. I appreciate the video - was not knocking you for posting it at all

Read my post again please. Never said the genetic landscape was gone. Just stated the question - if you are going to cull for reducing mouths to feed do you cull a 4-5 year old 12 point or a 4-5 year old 8 point?
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:23 PM   #12
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Guess it works both ways? Letting the big deer live on so they can breed and spread their seed is Bullchit?
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:25 PM   #13
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Never been told I was "delirious" LOL. I appreciate the video - was not knocking you for posting it at all

Read my post again please. Never said the genetic landscape was gone. Just stated the question - if you are going to cull for reducing mouths to feed do you cull a 4-5 year old 12 point or a 4-5 year old 8 point?
Lol... didn't mean you were delirious " personally!! " it was a general statement sir

The worst bull always leaves first but I know his sons are running rampant
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:31 PM   #14
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Lol... didn't mean you were delirious " personally!! " it was a general statement sir

The worst bull always leaves first but I know his sons are running rampant
My wife thinks I am personally!

I just love discussing this stuff - fascinating.

I am blessed to be on one of the best LF ranches in Texas for many years - I read studies all the time and this one is from the best of the best. It bumps up against what we have done with wonderful results so naturally I have questions.

Do you guys cull on your Mexico ranch? Just curious
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Old 09-01-2019, 07:07 PM   #15
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Thanks for posting this!

Culling isn’t to alter genetics in a herd, but to make more space/food for better deer.
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Old 09-01-2019, 07:31 PM   #16
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My wife thinks I am personally!

I just love discussing this stuff - fascinating.

I am blessed to be on one of the best LF ranches in Texas for many years - I read studies all the time and this one is from the best of the best. It bumps up against what we have done with wonderful results so naturally I have questions.

Do you guys cull on your Mexico ranch? Just curious
Our HF pasture yes we do, and hard because it's a controlled environment that can be altered. Our LF pasture we kill nothing under 5 because I want to see the true potential of each animal before I make that decision . Heck we have a 5 yr old 4 point lmao! I just kept letting him roll but his time is up.
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:06 PM   #17
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Just to be fair, does carry half the genetics in your herd. How do you cull them ?
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:34 PM   #18
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Just to be fair, does carry half the genetics in your herd. How do you cull them ?
You keep the pretty 1s.
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:37 PM   #19
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Glad to see a civil discussion.

FWIW I think does should be culled on body size.
Larger ones left regardless of age. I like to shoot big bodied bucks.



Thanks
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:44 PM   #20
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You keep the pretty 1s.
Theys all pretty to me, especially on a plate, chicken fried if you please
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Old 09-01-2019, 09:10 PM   #21
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The little 200 acre dirt patch ranch next to the 4500 acre ranch I run kills every deer that is an 8 point no matter how old because they believe they can manage “their herd to ensure trophy deer that way” drives me nuts since most of the 8 points are 2-3 yr olds and live at my house most of the year. So besides them being my pet deer I try to tell them they don’t have enough land to manage in the first place and showing up one weekend before opening weekend to fill feeders then tagging out on young good bucks and young healthy does is not the way to manage anything.
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Old 09-01-2019, 09:18 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Huntingfool View Post
Interesting - I know Donnie from the Comanche and he is good as they get.



Seems to me something not mentioned in this video/study is the fact that culling mouths (doe or sub par bucks) leaves more of the browse/supplemental feed for the remaining deer to consume which in turn enhances their growth.



The question not answered for me is this - if you are on a ranch with superior genetics/management/browse and you have an 8 point buck you have watched for 4 years. He is a basic 8 point and most of your bucks are 10 points up to 20 points. Even though (as the study states) that 8 point could have some better genes in him that what he is showing if you are going to thin your herd to keep the population/mouths down would you not want to cull that 8 point as opposed to culling bigger deer?


Yep seems like folks take some of this info and think itís a good idea to let culls run around for years eating and breeding a couple does a year...


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Old 09-01-2019, 09:31 PM   #23
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Our HF pasture yes we do, and hard because it's a controlled environment that can be altered. Our LF pasture we kill nothing under 5 because I want to see the true potential of each animal before I make that decision . Heck we have a 5 yr old 4 point lmao! I just kept letting him roll but his time is up.
A (5) yr old 4 pt is a trophy. We killed a 4 pt years ago that was 24Ēs wide and 6.5. My daughter is going to chase a Big 6 pt this year that will score in the 120ís. Heís 6 or 7 this year. I like trophy culls as much as I do trophy monsters.
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Old 09-01-2019, 10:03 PM   #24
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Our HF pasture yes we do, and hard because it's a controlled environment that can be altered. Our LF pasture we kill nothing under 5 because I want to see the true potential of each animal before I make that decision . Heck we have a 5 yr old 4 point lmao! I just kept letting him roll but his time is up.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000426266969

This study was done in a ďcontrolledĒ high fence pasture, a couple of different ones. The video you posted barely scratches the surface on the study that was conducted. Itís a real eye opener for sure.
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Old 09-01-2019, 10:06 PM   #25
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Yep seems like folks take some of this info and think itís a good idea to let culls run around for years eating and breeding a couple does a year...


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Itís certainly not going to hurt, and shooting them is not going to change anything as far as genetics are concerned.
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Old 09-01-2019, 10:59 PM   #26
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Kill em all 😜
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Old 09-02-2019, 02:08 AM   #27
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Kill em all ��
Hear hear!! specially if they are spikes, kill them until they are dead and twice on Sunday...

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Old 09-02-2019, 02:17 AM   #28
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The danger of good science is always bad interpretation of it.
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Old 09-02-2019, 05:48 AM   #29
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A (5) yr old 4 pt is a trophy. We killed a 4 pt years ago that was 24Ēs wide and 6.5. My daughter is going to chase a Big 6 pt this year that will score in the 120ís. Heís 6 or 7 this year. I like trophy culls as much as I do trophy monsters.
Lol... he's a cool buck, I'm just tired of feeding him. He lives at the feeder pen.
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Old 09-02-2019, 05:49 AM   #30
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Itís certainly not going to hurt, and shooting them is not going to change anything as far as genetics are concerned.
100 percent spot on. I just get tired of feeding them, and the kids/ guest like shooting them so it's a win win.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:39 AM   #31
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Occasionally we'll let one of the oddballs go to see what he might grow into. He becomes almost like a pet or lease mascot. This six is such a deer
Attached Images
  
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:42 AM   #32
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I think it sounds like a gamble. For instance, I had a 7 point last year that was a 4 yr old. Decent frame but no brow tine on his left side. Didn't shoot him mostly cause I didn't want to waste a management tag on him. I ended up shooting another 7 point with almost the exact same frame only he was 5.


I think our current majority gene pool leader are short tines and missing brows. Very common trait on our lease. Why are there so many deer with less than desirable racks at different age classes if the genetic trait was not passed down.
you're not alone on that one Muddy! we see the same thing. clearly a genetic trait when it's that wide spread. That short brow thing does seem to get better on the northern end of our place though.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:45 AM   #33
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Our HF pasture yes we do, and hard because it's a controlled environment that can be altered. Our LF pasture we kill nothing under 5 because I want to see the true potential of each animal before I make that decision . Heck we have a 5 yr old 4 point lmao! I just kept letting him roll but his time is up.
I"m making that change this year. We killed 4+ and less than 125" as "culls" last year, but there can sometimes be a little magic that happens at 5 for a deer... plus, who really gives a S about a 4 year old 118" anyway let em roll out there a bit more. If anything else, you're going to kill a studlier looking buck next year.


I'm also trying to come up with a system that will encourage people shooting the worst culls, rather than bumping the limiter on the management buck class. We saw several 6-7's last year that never got killed... I'd much rather people chase them than a 124 7/8" slick 8

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Old 09-02-2019, 09:26 AM   #34
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Occasionally we'll let one of the oddballs go to see what he might grow into. He becomes almost like a pet or lease mascot. This six is such a deer
Heck we got 2 mascots I guess

This 4 point has been a 4 since he was 2, now five. I couldn't make myself shoot hin last year, wonder how big he'll get. I'm sure he get shot this year, as I've pulled off his pardon.

We also got this crazy freak. Been this way for the last 4 years, ( I believe he's 9 or 10 ) I tried to sell him as a managment deer but nobody wants him. Guess he'll live out his old age on the ranch. He's not really hurting anything.



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Old 09-02-2019, 09:33 AM   #35
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Seems culling is a perennial debate much like shooting spikes was years back or wether offense or defense gets you to the super bowl.As for us we focus intensely and primarily on nutrition and do everything we can to enhance the nutritional plane 365 days a year then let ALL the bucks fully mature before removing them. Cant count the times I've seen bucks make big jumps both up AND down from year to year.

I find it fascinating that many that subscribe to the notion that culling shifts genetics will not only remove the " inferior " deer but do everything they can to shoot the biggest deer on the pasture as well??? Counterintuitive?
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:33 AM   #36
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I"m making that change this year. We killed 4+ and less than 125" as "culls" last year, but there can sometimes be a little magic that happens at 5 for a deer... plus, who really gives a S about a 4 year old 118" anyway let em roll out there a bit more. If anything else, you're going to kill a studlier looking buck next year.


I'm also trying to come up with a system that will encourage people shooting the worst culls, rather than bumping the limiter on the management buck class. We saw several 6-7's last year that never got killed... I'd much rather people chase them than a 124 7/8" slick 8
The biggest jumps I've seen are 5 to 6 for us. I'm talking 40 inch jumps. Everywhere is different though.

Those guys drive me crazy who want to shoot a 160 trophy and 150 inch "cull".
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:21 AM   #37
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We usually see are biggest jumps from 6-7
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:45 AM   #38
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Just to be fair, does carry half the genetics in your herd. How do you cull them ?
Arbitrarily or body size

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Old 09-02-2019, 11:23 AM   #39
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On one place I hunt, low fence, we have a doe with a tag in her ear that’s off limits. Great big old doe. Been watching her three years so I figure her to be 5/6 years old. I have seen her raise exactly one fawn in those three years. She has fawns, I see them on camera, but she can’t get them grown. Last year the only doe that I saw get her twins past summer was a 2 year old best I could tell. So much for old does being the best mothers. Now I know that this observation is anecdotal at best, (although the same scenario played out here at home), it does give me some food for thought. I think this management thing is extremely difficult on low fenced places with high predator populations.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:28 AM   #40
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I saw a study once that there were 100 bucks collared. from 1-2 there was high mortality rate, from 3-4 very few died, past 5 basically none of the 100 were alive. These were natural mortality rates, not deer killed by hunters. What I took from it was if you think a deer is 5, you better shoot him cause the likelihood being around next year is very close to %0
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:35 AM   #41
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I saw a study once that there were 100 bucks collared. from 1-2 there was high mortality rate, from 3-4 very few died, past 5 basically none of the 100 were alive. These were natural mortality rates, not deer killed by hunters. What I took from it was if you think a deer is 5, you better shoot him cause the likelihood being around next year is very close to %0
I've never seen that one, but I did see one from the king ranch that showed about 12% mortality year to year. There are an awful lot of 6-8 year old deer killed every year in south texas that would show a different result than the study you're referencing.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:38 AM   #42
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I saw a study once that there were 100 bucks collared. from 1-2 there was high mortality rate, from 3-4 very few died, past 5 basically none of the 100 were alive. These were natural mortality rates, not deer killed by hunters. What I took from it was if you think a deer is 5, you better shoot him cause the likelihood being around next year is very close to %0
Please attach study, many many deer live to the ripe old age of 10. Especially those who live in no hunting areas such as neighborhoods and state parks. I find this very unrealistic.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
I saw a study once that there were 100 bucks collared. from 1-2 there was high mortality rate, from 3-4 very few died, past 5 basically none of the 100 were alive. These were natural mortality rates, not deer killed by hunters. What I took from it was if you think a deer is 5, you better shoot him cause the likelihood being around next year is very close to %0
I am curious as to the location and conditions under which this study was performed. I have a highly managed HF ranch and we presently have many many bucks over the age of 5 with probably 20 in excess of 9 yrs old. In South Texas they can live to be very old. I have a tagged doe who is 14 and still making babies. She was released into the pasture 13+ years ago.

Nutrition, densities, ratios and predator control can allow for deer to get very old. Also, hunters keeping their booger pickers off the bang button can help too.
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:24 PM   #44
elgato
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Think we can all agree top buck can be removed to manage population. Tried to get him last year when he looked much the same but I only saw him once without a gun.

Pic#2 is a 5 year old 8 pt. Remove him? Management buck? He's only an 8 pt and is by some consideration mature. Cull. Management buck.Trophy. No matter how you frame it if he is shot he is dead.
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:35 PM   #45
elgato
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Here is what the 8 pt in previous post looked like as a 4 year old. Sometimes they go up. Sometimes they go down. But impossible to know till they are fully mature.Knowing this would you still consider shooting him as a 5 yr old 8 pt?

I think full maturity is almost always your friend for all bucks.Even the ones that may never be gigantic still look their best fully mature and if nutrition is optimized they can be plenty big to satisfy most hunters.

And I am convinced that if nutrition is optimized 365 days a year the overall bell curve of the bucks continually improves. That is very manageable. Genetics?...That requires an entirely different approach.
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Old 09-02-2019, 01:32 PM   #46
Huntingfool
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If we get an exceptional 4 year old 8 point (especially with brows like the one above) we would most likely let him walk to see what happens.

However if we see a basic, nothing special 8 point that is 4-5 he is going to die. We have way too many multi point bucks to give inferior 8 points a free ride. Seems to have worked for our place over the years
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Old 09-03-2019, 06:39 AM   #47
kyle1974
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Yeah, but everyone wants a 160Ē 8..
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:16 AM   #48
sotx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
The danger of good science is always bad interpretation of it.
This. I've always looked at this issue as a numbers game. Get the numbers in check, take your doe, take your inferior out. Do it early. I hunt on a place that has quite a few older gentlemen that still have the mindset of "don't kill the doe they are the factory" They absolutely will not kill doe. Frustrating. So some of us bring guest to try and do what should be their job.
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Old 09-03-2019, 08:53 PM   #49
MagicBlade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHammer View Post
Thanks for posting this!

Culling isnít to alter genetics in a herd, but to make more space/food for better deer.

I agree!
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Old 09-04-2019, 07:52 AM   #50
lovemylegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
Please attach study, many many deer live to the ripe old age of 10. Especially those who live in no hunting areas such as neighborhoods and state parks. I find this very unrealistic.
I agree.
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