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Old 07-29-2021, 05:56 PM   #1
andreww5001
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I am struggling trying to bareshaft tune my bow. I went to the bow shop and tuned up my bow. When I left, I had sent a bare shaft thru paper three times in a row and achieved a pretty good bullet hole at 5 steps. Iím trying to build a new set of arrows but now every arrow I shoot into my foam target is pretty severely tail right. I shot thru paper again at my house and no matter which direction I orient the nock, I am always nock right tear. I canít figure out whether the tune is my bow or an under spined arrow. My arrows were built using archers advantage software and they are supposed to be perfectly spined for my specs.

I then backed up to 30 yards and tried grouping with a fletched arrow. It groups close (four inches) but the nock is severely right into the target. The flight of the arrow just isnít good enough out of my bow.

What steps would you take to move forward? What would you do to remedy the problem?


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Old 07-29-2021, 06:04 PM   #2
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turn the weight down 1 full rotation and see if it gets better. that will tell you if you are under spined. also check your rest to make sure it is tight and didnt move on you.

if you are under, you can add weight to the back of your arrow or cut the length down if you can.
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Old 07-29-2021, 09:14 PM   #3
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Iíll turn the weight down on my bow tomorrow and check if that remedies anything.

Might be a dumb question, but does adding weight on the back of arrow have the opposite effect of adding weight to the front? More front weight making your arrow spine more dynamic and rear weight making it less dynamic? Or am I misunderstanding your last statement?


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Old 07-29-2021, 11:27 PM   #4
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Adding weight to the front of the arrows weakens the dynamic reaction just as adding weight to the rear stiffens it. As mentioned, turning the bow down is a good way to verify the spine reaction and a good starting point. Your problem sounds more like center shot or cam lean issue to me. You want to tune to the natural power stroke of the bow, its nock travel. Generally speaking, if the rest center shot is set properly then the adjustments for tail corrections sometimes require yoke tuning, shimming or if you have a cool system like Bowtech or Elite shifting the entire pocket angle which is really cool or top hat tuning if its a newer Mathews. What kind of rig are we talking about here?
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Old 07-29-2021, 11:49 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by muddyfuzzy View Post
Adding weight to the front of the arrows weakens the dynamic reaction just as adding weight to the rear stiffens it. As mentioned, turning the bow down is a good way to verify the spine reaction and a good starting point. Your problem sounds more like center shot or cam lean issue to me. You want to tune to the natural power stroke of the bow, its nock travel. Generally speaking, if the rest center shot is set properly then the adjustments for tail corrections sometimes require yoke tuning, shimming or if you have a cool system like Bowtech or Elite shifting the entire pocket angle which is really cool or top hat tuning if its a newer Mathews. What kind of rig are we talking about here?

Thatís helpful info.

I am shooting a Mathews Traverse. At the bow shop we did switch out the top hats to achieve that bullet hole I described earlier. I am shooting 75 grain outserts and 100 grain tip on 300 spine Axis. In an attempt to play with the dynamic spine, I have switched that 100 grain tip to a 125, 175, and 200 grain and still could not bring the nock around significantly. I realize I was probably going the wrong way with the dynamic spine but I was just trying to make an adjustment in an obvious direction so I could over correct the other way.


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Old 07-30-2021, 09:43 AM   #6
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Default Bare shaft tuning question

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Old 07-31-2021, 05:57 AM   #7
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Sounds like you are shooting a compound?

If so, did you add any electrical tape to the bare shaft to replicate the weight of vanes near the nock? It can make quite a difference to dynamic spine. Depending on brand, a 4" vane can weigh 5 to 8 grains. If you use 3 on your fletched arrows then that is a considerable spine effect.

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Old 07-31-2021, 09:08 AM   #8
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Sounds like you are shooting a compound?

If so, did you add any electrical tape to the bare shaft to replicate the weight of vanes near the nock? It can make quite a difference to dynamic spine. Depending on brand, a 4" vane can weigh 5 to 8 grains. If you use 3 on your fletched arrows then that is a considerable spine effect.

I did not for the initial tunings. You are right, my three vains are right at 20 grains plus a lighted nock is another 22 grains so that is definitely adding some weight to it. I will try this and see if it makes a significant difference but honestly as large as some of these tears are through paper and as angled as these arrows are impacting the target, I donít feel like Iím that close to a good tune.


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Old 07-31-2021, 09:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreww5001 View Post
I did not for the initial tunings. You are right, my three vains are right at 20 grains plus a lighted nock is another 22 grains so that is definitely adding some weight to it. I will try this and see if it makes a significant difference but honestly as large as some of these tears are through paper and as angled as these arrows are impacting the target, I don’t feel like I’m that close to a good tune.


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I mostly shoot trad. When bareshaft tuning I can tell the difference in not have 3 feathers (less than 10-gr). I imaging 42 gr has a large impact. I modeled my setup on the 3Rivers dynamic spine calculator, and a 42 gr change on the nock end changed the arrows dynamic spine by 10. That's huge!

I learned the electrical tape trick from somebody on this board. Make your bareshaft and hunting shaft weigh the same. Works great!

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Old 07-31-2021, 09:27 AM   #10
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So tuned with one arrow and shooting another. Do you have the arrows it was tuned with and if so how do they shoot?

Just asking.

The turning the bow down is a good start and easy check for diagnosing the issue. I hope it was you doing the shooting at the shop for the paper tuning and not one of their techs as the shooter can make a difference as well if one torques the bow and one doesn't. I have had more than one shooter come back in saying something must have moved or changed on their setup that wound up being a little change in grip or follow through.
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Old 07-31-2021, 09:33 AM   #11
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So tuned with one arrow and shooting another. Do you have the arrows it was tuned with and if so how do they shoot?

Just asking.

The turning the bow down is a good start and easy check for diagnosing the issue. I hope it was you doing the shooting at the shop for the paper tuning and not one of their techs as the shooter can make a difference as well if one torques the bow and one doesn't. I have had more than one shooter come back in saying something must have moved or changed on their setup that wound up being a little change in grip or follow through.

It was me that shot the bow at the shop. I also have disassembled and reassembled the arrow that the bow was tuned with. I used hot melt at the shop to set up a quick tune arrow but then got home and insert tuned all arrows and epoxied the inserts in.
It very well could have been my grip or form change. I have not been shooting my compound much lately because Iíve been working on my trad bows. The only thing I canít figure out (if that is the case) is why I canít replicate better arrow flight even when Iím trying to vary grip pressures and follow thru.


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Old 07-31-2021, 08:07 PM   #12
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So I used a fletched arrow to show you what straight is. I put a lumenok in the back and wrapped with masking tape to simulate vain weight. I also backed my bow out one turn (approx 3 pounds) and this was the result. Still a similar impact to what Iíve been getting. I might need to double check the bow tune again.



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Old 07-31-2021, 08:26 PM   #13
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So I used a fletched arrow to show you what straight is. I put a lumenok in the back and wrapped with masking tape to simulate vain weight. I also backed my bow out one turn (approx 3 pounds) and this was the result. Still a similar impact to what I’ve been getting. I might need to double check the bow tune again.
It looks pretty stable.
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Old 07-31-2021, 10:15 PM   #14
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it does not look stable. Fletching is a parachute that adds drag and will allow the heavy end to true itself. this error can be a host of things. If you just left the shop with it tuned then I would assume that it is tuned. I would shoot the unfletched arrow more. A bad grip can do just this......just keep at it and make small changes with your grip and how you are placing the string / your hand, etc on the side of your coconut. check your form again
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Old 07-31-2021, 10:23 PM   #15
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Too much facial pressure on the string at release may be a possibility
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Old 08-01-2021, 06:55 AM   #16
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Never used masking tape, always electrical, but as long as you got the weight correct it should make no difference.

What type of rest are you shooting? Can you move it in or out?
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Old 08-02-2021, 05:02 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreww5001 View Post
So I used a fletched arrow to show you what straight is. I put a lumenok in the back and wrapped with masking tape to simulate vain weight. I also backed my bow out one turn (approx 3 pounds) and this was the result. Still a similar impact to what Iíve been getting. I might need to double check the bow tune again.

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Your vanes obviously corrected the flight of the shaft.
What distance did you shoot at?
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Old 08-02-2021, 06:19 AM   #18
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Judging from just the entry point of the arrow,and overlooking the angle for now, I am starting to think that your arrows are too stiff. turn your bow UP 2 full rotations if you can and see if you get a closer to center poi, and straighter entry angle.
Also you never mention the type of rest you have or if you have tried moving it in very small increments towards the riser. That might also be an issue to deal with if you can get any improvement with the draw weight adjustments
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Old 08-02-2021, 10:02 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by HeyMikey View Post
Your vanes obviously corrected the flight of the shaft.
What distance did you shoot at?

This was at 20 yards.


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Old 08-02-2021, 10:11 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by bowhuntntxn View Post
Judging from just the entry point of the arrow,and overlooking the angle for now, I am starting to think that your arrows are too stiff. turn your bow UP 2 full rotations if you can and see if you get a closer to center poi, and straighter entry angle.
Also you never mention the type of rest you have or if you have tried moving it in very small increments towards the riser. That might also be an issue to deal with if you can get any improvement with the draw weight adjustments

Iím shooting a ultra rest. I can move it. I did tinker with that a little. When I made adjustments the tears got even worse and when I went the other direction the arrow was significantly off center so that it was visibly noticeable while just sitting on the rest. The rest was super close to my riser at that point.

I hope the arrow is a little too stiff. I can do a ton of stuff to correct that but archers advantage software was indicating that Iíd be fighting the shaft being under spined. Iím drawing 28.5 inches and the arrows are cut to 28. I have a 75 grain outsert on them with wraps, three fletch, and a lumenok. Iím having to shoot a 100 grain head to keep the weight from being to much for this 300 spine arrow according to the software. Also my bow is not slow at 338 IBO.

I did mention earlier that I had tried 175 grain tips on top of the 75 grain outsert and that did not remedy the problem at all.


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Old 08-02-2021, 03:05 PM   #21
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How do Broadheads impact?

Hereís why I ask, fletching fixes 2 things, minor launch issues and minor form issues. You could be chasing your tail on something that canít be fixed tinkering when itís something in the shot. Remember you have ZERO correction built into those arrows. If Broadheads fly great and group with field points, go hunt! If not keep looking for an issue


Itís become some type of witchcraft that you ďmust tune the bow to youÖĒ. NoÖ the bow is tuned or itís not. Thereís a small grey area in customization there but not enough that everyone can A. Shoot a bullet hole. Or B. Get Broadheads and field points to groupÖ. Not everyone can do it. And thatís ok!!! Ö.. that why we hunt with fletching. Lol
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Old 08-02-2021, 03:15 PM   #22
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How do Broadheads impact?

Hereís why I ask, fletching fixes 2 things, minor launch issues and minor form issues. You could be chasing your tail on something that canít be fixed tinkering when itís something in the shot. Remember you have ZERO correction built into those arrows. If Broadheads fly great and group with field points, go hunt! If not keep looking for an issue


Itís become some type of witchcraft that you ďmust tune the bow to youÖĒ. NoÖ the bow is tuned or itís not. Thereís a small grey area in customization there but not enough that everyone can A. Shoot a bullet hole. Or B. Get Broadheads and field points to groupÖ. Not everyone can do it. And thatís ok!!! Ö.. that why we hunt with fletching. Lol
if the arrow not leaving the bow straight, which it appears it is not, for whatever reason then the BH are going to fly horrific as you will put a sail on the front of the arrow. Fix the problem and shoot straight or use an expandable and mask the root cause of your issue.
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Old 08-02-2021, 03:17 PM   #23
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Not shooting a poorly tuned arrow and Iím definitely not shooting a mechanical broadhead. The reason I posted on here two months before season is to fix the problem. Iím building arrows from scratch and tuning this bow to maximize the lethality of my set up.


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Old 08-02-2021, 03:23 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Tom View Post
if the arrow not leaving the bow straight, which it appears it is not, for whatever reason then the BH are going to fly horrific as you will put a sail on the front of the arrow. Fix the problem and shoot straight or use an expandable and mask the root cause of your issue.
100% agreed…… BUT the perfect arrow, with perfect tune…. And a minor grip pressure issue, face pressure, release form, bow arm… ect. And you chase your tail for ZERO gain.

That’s why I ask how does it shoot Broadheads at the current state it let the pro shop?

Nothing wrong with wanting the best you can get, but that ceiling is limited to the weakest component in the equation


I can take a 1 hole bench gun and give it to my 5 yo…. Still a 1 hole gun, just not in his hands. That’s not a dog at OP, I don’t know his skill level, but I know some insane 3D archers that can’t shoot a bullet hole… they are just incredibly repeatable and have an amazing ability to aim!

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Old 08-02-2021, 03:24 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by andreww5001 View Post
Not shooting a poorly tuned arrow and Iím definitely not shooting a mechanical broadhead. The reason I posted on here two months before season is to fix the problem. Iím building arrows from scratch and tuning this bow to maximize the lethality of my set up.


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Outstanding to hear....you are on the right track if you learn the variables and work on them one at a time. I would step back to 40 and shoot the bare shaft. The error will be big enough that small changes will be noticeable.
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Old 08-02-2021, 03:25 PM   #26
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where are you?
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Old 08-02-2021, 04:08 PM   #27
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where are you?

Located south of Ft Worth about 20 mins.


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Old 08-02-2021, 05:15 PM   #28
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Did I miss where you listed your draw length and draw weight?
I'm no tuning expert, but I'm having a little trouble seeing how you're so overspined with a 300 shaft, that a small bit of tweaking on the arrow rest won't clean up your bare shaft arrow flight, and bring your bare shaft and fletched shaft together.

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Old 08-02-2021, 05:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyMikey View Post
Did I miss where you listed your draw length and draw weight?
I'm no tuning expert, but I'm having a little trouble seeing how you're so overspined with a 300 shaft, that a small bit of tweaking on the arrow rest won't bring your bare shaft and fletched shaft together.

28.5 inches at 70 pounds w/ 75 grain outsert on a 28 inch arrow and 100 grains up front.


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Old 08-02-2021, 06:29 PM   #30
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This shot was with a 300 grain field tip and the 75 grain outsert. I think itís pretty clear based upon impact direction that I am not dealing with a spine issue.

I have moved my rest a hash mark in either direction and while I can make a decent tear through paper, when I move out to distance the impact is consistently angular to the fletched arrow. I donít think Iím within micro tuning conversation. I think Iím still pretty far from achieving a decent tune.

Iím getting close to having a Traverse in the classifiedsÖ


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Old 08-02-2021, 09:22 PM   #31
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Wow

I’m by far not a Mathews fan boy. But it ain’t the bow

Go back to center. Center rest and loop…. CENTER

1.shoot a fletched arrow at whatever max distance you can realistically hit a 3” dot every time.

2. Take same arrow setup and put on broadhead and shoot. If it hits leave it alone

If it don’t…… the solution to the problem is not in some test kit or more flapper on the twislers. It will be a timing issue, top hat issue, or form issue

Bare shaft CAN mean everything is working great….. but that doesn’t mean very many are capable of achieving it…. Which is why I don’t think most should even attempt it

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Old 08-03-2021, 01:32 PM   #32
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If your papertears are left or right, with no up or down, you don’t have a timing or spine issue if you’re shooting a release. Left/ right tears are gonna be centershot,grip, or cam alignment. (Top hats on that bow). For me, when I papertune bows, there is a bullethole, or there isn’t.
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Old 08-04-2021, 09:47 AM   #33
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Lots of good information, some bad.

A side tear is NOT SPINE RELATED. Can you change a side tear by doing something to the spine? YES.

Will turning a bow up or down tell you the arrow is weak or stiff. NO. will it change a reaction? YES.

Let me see if I can explain without going crazy. haha

An arrow has what is called nodes. There are two major nodes. one at the front and one at the back. When an arrow is shot and is flexing the nodes is the point where there is no flex. it would be easier to understand with a picture. (look it up) When tuning, the goal is to have those two nodes in line when the arrow is shot. Suppose both nodes are in line on the shot with a compound bow with a release aid. The spine will not matter. you could shoot a 1000 spine or a 100 spine. (disclaimer I'm not saying ever to shoot an underspine arrow.) underspine arrows will not group with a broadhead on them.

Only looking at what you have. First, a nock right for a right-hand shooter can be hand torque. You need to test.

next, a side tear means your bow is not set up correctly. (let me add an arrow that requires a nock tuning can and will give you incorrect results when testing between a fletched and bare shaft. If you have not nock-tuned the arrows, this alone could be your problem. All arrows should be nocked tune before tuning starts and fletching of arrows. If arrows are already fletch, you should nock tune them at around 3 to 5 ft shooting through paper.

If all is good, then what you are showing is the horizontal nock travel is not set correctly. You need to adjust the cam lean.

Let me add a few things. If everything is set correctly. Side tears are not the spine. It's a horizontal nock travel issue. A high tear or nock high is a vertical nock issue or a weak spine reaction. A low nock is not a spine. It is a vertical nock issue

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Old 08-04-2021, 09:07 PM   #34
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Lots of good information, some bad.

A side tear is NOT SPINE RELATED. Can you change a side tear by doing something to the spine? YES.

Will turning a bow up or down tell you the arrow is weak or stiff. NO. will it change a reaction? YES.

Let me see if I can explain without going crazy. haha

An arrow has what is called nodes. There are two major nodes. one at the front and one at the back. When an arrow is shot and is flexing the nodes is the point where there is no flex. it would be easier to understand with a picture. (look it up) When tuning, the goal is to have those two nodes in line when the arrow is shot. Suppose both nodes are in line on the shot with a compound bow with a release aid. The spine will not matter. you could shoot a 1000 spine or a 100 spine. (disclaimer I'm not saying ever to shoot an underspine arrow.) underspine arrows will not group with a broadhead on them.

Only looking at what you have. First, a nock right for a right-hand shooter can be hand torque. You need to test.

next, a side tear means your bow is not set up correctly. (let me add an arrow that requires a nock tuning can and will give you incorrect results when testing between a fletched and bare shaft. If you have not nock-tuned the arrows, this alone could be your problem. All arrows should be nocked tune before tuning starts and fletching of arrows. If arrows are already fletch, you should nock tune them at around 3 to 5 ft shooting through paper.

If all is good, then what you are showing is the horizontal nock travel is not set correctly. You need to adjust the cam lean.

Let me add a few things. If everything is set correctly. Side tears are not the spine. It's a horizontal nock travel issue. A high tear or nock high is a vertical nock issue or a weak spine reaction. A low nock is not a spine. It is a vertical nock issue
Most of your post is spot on. The exception is that some single cam bows will have a nick low tear with a stiff arrow. I know that this is not the case with the original post, but needed to clarify.
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:52 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Most of your post is spot on. The exception is that some single cam bows will have a nick low tear with a stiff arrow. I know that this is not the case with the original post, but needed to clarify.


I would say yes since the cam is on the bottom it would have a nock low.

Thanks for the correction.
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Old 08-12-2021, 04:40 PM   #36
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Default Bare shaft tuning question

I have this exact same problem that is driving me crazy.

My fletched arrow is bullet holes through paper at 8í. When I go to bare shaft tune at 15 yards I can see the bare shaft shifting in flight, it looks like it could be going sideways for a millisecond.







The bow is fully in spec, cams are synced, spine on my arrow is fine as this same set up was not having this issue previously. I canít figure it out. This just started after swapping mods to a shorter DL and then going back to the original.

Broadheads and field points are at least 6Ē apart at 80 yards and maybe 2Ē or so at 40. Have tried several adjustments and cannot get them to close gap and come together.

Elite E35, 29Ē DL, 70#
Easton Axis 300, total arrow weight is 525 grains, 257 fps

I leave for work on Monday so am out of time to get this fixed, wife will ship my bow and gear to my outfitter for a moose hunt at the end of September in Newfoundland. When I get home from work I leave two days later so no time even then to mess with it.

Have broadheads zeroed all the way to 80 yards and will have to live with that I guess.

Last edited by JES; 08-12-2021 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 08-16-2021, 01:00 AM   #37
Loneaggie
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Pretty simple cams have to go right or rest left (assuming right handed). As enewman pointed out horizontal tears out of a compound bow with a mechanical release is not necessarily spine. If youíre shimmed right and rest is way out left there are really only two things left: 1) bad cam lean due to a bad limb 94 bearing or 2) your form: grip, draw length, and dloop length.
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