Anyone have a custom rifle for sale? Gunwerx, etc?

[TX03RUBI]

Get a custom built how you want it then add the g7 rangefinder and a nightforce and you have gunwerk's shooting system.

For about $5-7k less too

[Stick1]

And unlike APR, the come with an accuracy guarantee that tells you exactly what ammo was used for the test shots.

I want to address this statement and I hope it doesn't come across as negative or defensive, because that's not how it is meant at all. Rather a clarification and explanation of "why".

The quoted statement is not entirely correct. They do come with an accuracy guarantee, but you are correct that they don't come with a test target. They are two entirely different things(I get that one can be used to support the other). Probably several pros and cons to that approach, but at the end of the day we can sell the exact same rifle for about $2K less with the only difference being that piece of paper. Most of our customers seem to appreciate not paying that premium, but I realize everyone has their own views on the matter. (and for an extra $2K I'll go shoot anyone a really, really, really nice test target) Just kidding.........but,maybe not.

My personal view on it is the only thing that target guarantees is the lot of ammo being represented shot well as did the shooter that shot it. There is no guarantee the next lot will duplicate it's performance, and no rifle manufacturer can guarantee that unless they are loading it themselves. I have seen more than one maker wash their hands of an accuracy issue because the test target "proved" the rifle shot well, albeit with a very specific load. Our approach is a little different in that we guarantee it to meet or exceed our customers expectations, taking into to consideration the limitations of the chambering/ammo being used of course - because they are NOT all the same. No way to cover all build/cartridge combos with an "XX - MOA" guarantee when not all combos are capable of producing the standard of the guarantee itself.

What I HOPE that means to the customer is they don't have to worry if the deal is going to work out or not, and they go into it knowing we have their back. We'll usually discuss platform design, build components and ammo to be used in order to set a realistic performance expectation for the rifle itself. In the event it does not meet that expectation, we will do whatever needs to be done to remedy that. In the really rare event that does not work, we'll remedy that too. I feel like this is a much stronger and realistic guarantee than many others out there.

[kck]

I’ll be a bit short on this subject. Accuracy guarantees and for sales and sales only...period. I build probably 1 rifle for every 20-30 that the APR boys build but I know their work and it’s **** good and every bit as good as anyone with an “accuracy guarantee”. We all indicate to .0002 or less. We all use the best actions, barrels, stocks, triggers, etc. and true up Remington’s at tight as you can get them. If these criteria are met then you WILL have a rifle that shoots given the components are built correctly (I’ll guarantee you that HCR has built rifles that have had to be taken back for a replacement barrel or some type of accuracy issue). Bottom line is no one building rifles is completely reinventing the wheel no matter what they say.

[trophy8]

I’ll be a bit short on this subject. Accuracy guarantees and for sales and sales only...period. I build probably 1 rifle for every 20-30 that the APR boys build but I know their work and it’s **** good and every bit as good as anyone with an “accuracy guarantee”. We all indicate to .0002 or less. We all use the best actions, barrels, stocks, triggers, etc. and true up Remington’s at tight as you can get them. If these criteria are met then you WILL have a rifle that shoots given the components are built correctly (I’ll guarantee you that HCR has built rifles that have had to be taken back for a replacement barrel or some type of accuracy issue). Bottom line is no one building rifles is completely reinventing the wheel no matter what they say.

A Big portion of the cost difference is some smiths only use a reamer a few times. Instead of using it on 20+ guns. Reamers aren’t real expensive but not super cheap either. They take awhile to get. My smith will chamber it to my specs. Run XYZ bullet at XYZ length with these reamer specs. He or I orders the reamer and rolls with it. Now not everyone cares about that. But I know my gun will shoot the exact bullet I want very very well. No guessing games. No guessing which load with 5 bullets. Just get the load done with the bullet I chose and start killing critters and steel. This is a point a lot of folks forget or just flat don’t know about.

[Stick1]

I’ll be a bit short on this subject. Accuracy guarantees and for sales and sales only...period. I build probably 1 rifle for every 20-30 that the APR boys build but I know their work and it’s **** good and every bit as good as anyone with an “accuracy guarantee”. We all indicate to .0002 or less. We all use the best actions, barrels, stocks, triggers, etc. and true up Remington’s at tight as you can get them. If these criteria are met then you WILL have a rifle that shoots given the components are built correctly (I’ll guarantee you that HCR has built rifles that have had to be taken back for a replacement barrel or some type of accuracy issue). Bottom line is no one building rifles is completely reinventing the wheel no matter what they say.

Good post KCK!!! Truth is, a McMillan stock is a McMillan Stock and a Defiance action is a Defiance action, a Bartlein is a Bartlein and on and on and on and on. For the most part we all use the EXACT same components, some branded, private labled, etc. But the component pool is mostly the same across the board and straight is straight no matter who did the work. There really isn't any magic or voodoo that makes one builder better than the rest when it comes to "accuracy".

Components these days are top shelf, and most guys are using modern methods and techniques that have been proven in competition over and over. It really just comes down to who you are comfortable working with. I'll concede there is some "art" to a stress free bedding job, and not everyone can hold the same level of tolerances due to equipment limitations, levels of finish will vary by builder, but there is no magic in any of it. There is good work out there literally everywhere. I know there are at least 5 people on this very forum that can "get it done".

It's kind of funny, we have had a bunch of work come through our shop for repairs or re-barrels that started out as a builds from a big name "famous" builders that were absolutely sloppy when taken apart and inspected. One in particular had tennon threads so undersized that it probably wasn't even safe. Seen a lot of "trued" actions that weren't trued, threads that looked like they were cut with a hacksaw and chambers oversized at the back. Conversely, I've taken in projects that guys built in their garage that just needed some fluting, engraving or cerakote work that they just didn't have the capacity to do at home and some have been examples of the best work I have ever seen. I'm sure somebody has pulled apart my work at some point too and found something to critique .

[Stick1]

A Big portion of the cost difference is some smiths only use a reamer a few times. Instead of using it on 20+ guns.

This is interesting to me, as I hate switching to a new reamer on common rounds - as the chances of getting two identically ground reamers are slim if the goal is to have consistent chambers. My concern is exactly like yours, but just looking at it from a different angle. I could see how some chambering methods would take the life out of a tool fairly quickly, but I'd be unhappy to see a reamer finished off in 20 chambers.

We run a taper boring program that parallels the reamer taper and removes almost all of the material before the reamer ever gets loaded. It has the added bonus of keeping the chamber very concentric from the beginning. The reamer itself just cleans up the chamber and brings it into final dimensions. I'm talking like .005 material removal per side. That combined with high lubricity coolant in a flush through system keeps our reamers shaving-sharp and in good condition for 50+ chambers at least.........if my guy got the feed-rate right. Lol. The reamer reaper will be paying a visit much sooner if not.

Just goes to show there's more than one way to skin a cat, and you still end up with the same hide in the end.

[trophy8]

This is interesting to me, as I hate switching to a new reamer on common rounds - as the chances of getting two identically ground reamers are slim if the goal is to have consistent chambers. My concern is exactly like yours, but just looking at it from a different angle. I could see how some chambering methods would take the life out of a tool fairly quickly, but I'd be unhappy to see a reamer finished off in 20 chambers.

We run a taper boring program that parallels the reamer taper and removes almost all of the material before the reamer ever gets loaded. It has the added bonus of keeping the chamber very concentric from the beginning. The reamer itself just cleans up the chamber and brings it into final dimensions. I'm talking like .005 material removal per side. That combined with high lubricity coolant in a flush through system keeps our reamers shaving-sharp and in good condition for 50+ chambers at least.........if my guy got the feed-rate right. Lol. The reamer reaper will be paying a visit much sooner if not.

Just goes to show there's more than one way to skin a cat, and you still end up with the same hide in the end.

Oh I agree. And don’t get me wrong I understand when you’re doing a run like the TBH special guns and guys aren’t picky as to freebore and all then yeah, run it like an assembly line. I was just stating that when a smith caters to my specific requests and spends good time making it on the exact dimensions I ask for, it will cost more money. Their time isn’t free as you well know. That’s the beauty of custom rifles. They are custom. Built to a T on what the customer wants. If all a guy wants it a nice action and barrel and stock and gets to pick the colors but is happy with a SAAMI spec reamer or a reamer of the smiths choosing, then it’s easier to get costs down in high quantity batches.

Take my 7 mag for example. I wanted a different tang. A different loading port. A different firing pin shroud. A certain reamer done a certain way. A certain freebore. Certain bedding and bottom metal. Caliber and logo engraving a certain way. You get the point. That kind of custom work is impossible to do in high quantity. Because what I want, the next 5 won’t. Heck the next 2-3 customers probably won’t. And some just flat don’t care about the minor details like that. It all comes at a price. And everyone has their reasons.

[Stick1]

Oh I agree. And don’t get me wrong I understand when you’re doing a run like the TBH special guns and guys aren’t picky as to freebore and all then yeah, run it like an assembly line. I was just stating that when a smith caters to my specific requests and spends good time making it on the exact dimensions I ask for, it will cost more money. Their time isn’t free as you well know. That’s the beauty of custom rifles. They are custom. Built to a T on what the customer wants. If all a guy wants it a nice action and barrel and stock and gets to pick the colors but is happy with a SAAMI spec reamer or a reamer of the smiths choosing, then it’s easier to get costs down in high quantity batches.

Take my 7 mag for example. I wanted a different tang. A different loading port. A different firing pin shroud. A certain reamer done a certain way. A certain freebore. Certain bedding and bottom metal. Caliber and logo engraving a certain way. You get the point. That kind of custom work is impossible to do in high quantity. Because what I want, the next 5 won’t. Heck the next 2-3 customers probably won’t. And some just flat don’t care about the minor details like that. It all comes at a price. And everyone has their reasons.

Well crap. Guess I wasn't following you. Thought we were talking about tool life of reamers. Either way, set up process is the same whether SAAMI spec or custom throated reamer. I certainly wouldn't (and don't) charge more in labor for a custom throat(and we do a bunch of em). Same for the engraving.

[trophy8]

Well crap. Guess I wasn't following you. Thought we were talking about tool life of reamers. Either way, set up process is the same whether SAAMI spec or custom throated reamer. I certainly wouldn't (and don't) charge more in labor for a custom throat(and we do a bunch of em). Same for the engraving.

I kinda was but wasn’t my entire point lol. The reamer I want may not be what someone else does. I try to seat mine as far out as I can and still feed at mag length for obvious reasons. You can’t exactly do that and expect factory stuff to shoot real well. I AM picky about a reamer that’s been used a bunch too.

On your Tbh special, if a customer wanted a certain reamer and the gun chambered his way, do you just charge them for the reamer? Or let him source it maybe. Just a question. Not a complaint by any means. I’ve talked to a few Smith’s that wouldn’t allow me to choose my reamer design which was crazy to me.

[critter69]

I realize there is a difference, but doesn’t custom mean built specifically for you, to your wants, requirements. Buying a used custom, is kinda like buying a high priced production gun. Close to what you want but not exactly, built for you. Just my thought, if I was going to buy a custom gun, I would want what I want period. If I was going to buy a used custom ( built for someone else) I would buy an accurate factory gun and replace the stock with one I like. And may have a smith do a couple things if they were even needed. Buy a great scope and mounts and be very happy I just saved a lot of money. And got a gun I can be proud of. After all it’s the groups we shoot with it that makes it great or NOT so great. If I was buying custom I would for sure order what I really wanted and except nothing less. I do have one “ custom “ rifle i had made years ago, it’s a 45-110 Shiloh sharps. And it’s exactly what I wanted, actually wish the wood was fancier for ordering aaa+. But that’s one thing I guess you can’t really expect. Unless you have your own blank, wich I didn’t. But f I was to do it again, I would.

[Slick8]

You know, I post this at risk of sounding like a fanboy but that ship has likely sailed...

To anyone who's unsure about making a purchase based on an accuracy guarantee, Robert has done all of the above mentioned or questioned for me.

He's ordered two reamers and not charged me a dime, the latest a custom throated model. Don't expect him to eat it on an obscure reamer that he may never use again but if it's marketable he may work with you.

He's repainted two different stocks as the first rendition didn't meet my expectations...I may have drove him to drinking on those.

He rejected a barrel on the first group build that had run out that he didn't like. It was in the barrel makers spec but not his.

He also warrantied a barrel that wouldn't shoot with a free upgrade to a more expensive brand. If this was a factory rifle they would have told you to pound sand that it was acceptable. Mind you this first group buy didn't cost a lot more than a new Sendero.

He's answered every manner of question and thrown some great suggestions my way.

[Stick1]

I kinda was but wasn’t my entire point lol. The reamer I want may not be what someone else does. I try to seat mine as far out as I can and still feed at mag length for obvious reasons. You can’t exactly do that and expect factory stuff to shoot real well. I AM picky about a reamer that’s been used a bunch too.

On your Tbh special, if a customer wanted a certain reamer and the gun chambered his way, do you just charge them for the reamer? Or let him source it maybe. Just a question. Not a complaint by any means. I’ve talked to a few Smith’s that wouldn’t allow me to choose my reamer design which was crazy to me.

Gotcha! So the way it works is they can provide the reamer(which is absolutely fine) or I can order what they want and charge them for it(they keep it after the job) or if its something that has a reasonable chance of being used again(which is what your description would be) I'll offer to split the cost and I'll keep it after the job.

The only hitch in the whole thing is if they provide a PT&G reamer. If it's out of spec(and there is a better than good chance it will be, or the cutting geometry is off) it's between them and PT&G - NOT ME. And I will charge full price to re-cut the chamber.

Kind of the same thing with the engraving. Got something cool or different you want? Send me a file!

I know that it may seem like we aren't as "custom" as some makers due to the volume and the fact that we have a couple of "production" lines. But the customer has TOTAL input on every part of the build. Even the production guns (which is really just a parts package). Customers still get to choose the things that really make it perform like chamber specs, twist rates, barrel lengths, etc. It's one of the reasons we try to make sure every customer gets to see the back of the shop when they come in, so they can actually see how they are made in person. I'd use the term efficient, rather than assembly line. There are still just as many hand hours in every build as anywhere else. Machine time and paint batching are where we realize the most efficiencies. But with 6 of us working back there, we can still get a lot done in a day.

I want to edit this to say that these "group buys" are indeed limited on parts selection and I can get how the assembly line thing might be inferred now that I think about it. But it's never something just randomly thrown out there. It's always something we all kind of vote on as a group and narrow down to a specific list of parts so we can get a smoking deal on to make these "specials" truly special. Much more efficient to build with the same components as well. This one will be about $1K less than anything comparable from another builder. These deals are nothing like what our day to day operations look like, and dang sure don't happen anywhere but here

[trophy8]

PT&G is like the ultimate cuss word haha

[Stick1]

I realize there is a difference, but doesn’t custom mean built specifically for you, to your wants, requirements. Buying a used custom, is kinda like buying a high priced production gun. Close to what you want but not exactly, built for you. Just my thought, if I was going to buy a custom gun, I would want what I want period. If I was going to buy a used custom ( built for someone else) I would buy an accurate factory gun and replace the stock with one I like. And may have a smith do a couple things if they were even needed. Buy a great scope and mounts and be very happy I just saved a lot of money. And got a gun I can be proud of. After all it’s the groups we shoot with it that makes it great or NOT so great. If I was buying custom I would for sure order what I really wanted and except nothing less. I do have one “ custom “ rifle i had made years ago, it’s a 45-110 Shiloh sharps. And it’s exactly what I wanted, actually wish the wood was fancier for ordering aaa+. But that’s one thing I guess you can’t really expect. Unless you have your own blank, wich I didn’t. But f I was to do it again, I would.

I get exactly what you are saying. I'll just say this. When we started the shop the plan was a full retail gun store in the front and I would build customs out of the back. Seemed like the logical thing to do. I would have never thought that anyone would buy a new custom that they didn't spec out. Fast forward to today, no more retail guns and we can't keep custom guns on the shelf. We got picked over pretty hard on Saturday alone. If there is a lesson in this.....it is that people don't like to wait. And that may trump a certain color choice, trigger, etc. And sometimes folks just don't know what they want until they see it.

To the OP - I sincerely apologize for the level of thread hi-jacking that would make a somali pirate jealous.

[kck]

A Big portion of the cost difference is some smiths only use a reamer a few times. Instead of using it on 20+ guns. Reamers aren’t real expensive but not super cheap either. They take awhile to get. My smith will chamber it to my specs. Run XYZ bullet at XYZ length with these reamer specs. He or I orders the reamer and rolls with it. Now not everyone cares about that. But I know my gun will shoot the exact bullet I want very very well. No guessing games. No guessing which load with 5 bullets. Just get the load done with the bullet I chose and start killing critters and steel. This is a point a lot of folks forget or just flat don’t know about.

You said it. Reemers aren’t expensive, even if you use it once (in the grand scheme of the build). I’m just still trying to figure out where the other thousands of dollars are coming from.