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Old 01-01-2020, 07:06 PM   #251
tradtiger
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What is the expectation of the armed citizen? Is it that they will confront a shooter or is it that you use it only if confronted by the shooter?
Example: Your in a walmart and hear shots. Do you move toward the shots or do you look for an escape route?
If i am carrying i am moving toward an escape route and will only pull my weapon out when i actually see the shooter and he is in proximity to me. I have never had the expectation that CHL holders are to move toward the offender. I think training to intentionally engage a shooter ( move toward the shooter like a police officer would) is much different than training or practice for self defense. Someone who just wants a fighting chance at survival just needs to know how to operate the weapon because the target is going to be pretty close. When i think of armed teachers i dont see 10 teachers running down the halls looking to confront the shooter. I see 1-2 doing that and the rest sheltered in their rooms with the kids and only using the gun if the shooter enters that room. There is no danger to the kids if that teacher has minimal training or just practice at home. They will all be dead regardless if the shooter enters that room. You want to move toward and engage shooters.....get a lot of training and some really good insurance. Other than give the rest of us constitutional carry and dont worry about us
Excellent analysis of the varying levels of response of each individual. Self-defense can be just that. No one has to be a hero. In the church case, God placed exactly the right person at the right time with the right level of training and skill to save an untold number of lives. The others following up and moving in are also heroes.

For school classrooms, you're also correct: a teacher with a gun, ready to defend his or her immediate area -- classroom -- is 100 percent more defense capability than not having a weapon. There should be no expectation of them to go Rambo on tracking down a shooter down the hall. Some may be trained and inclined to take the more aggressive path. Their choice. In either case, some defense capability is better than none.
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Old 01-01-2020, 07:24 PM   #252
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I am not sure how you have it positioned to make it difficult. How deep, any cant, any releases on the holster, etc.
Thanks, I’ll look at these factors so maybe I just need to make some adjustments. I also probably need to address my waist size a little too ☺️.
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Old 01-01-2020, 07:33 PM   #253
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Personally, I dont like appendix carry. Theres too many situations that make that a poor draw position. Especially close quarters, your bringing your arm closer to the front of you where if anyone were to react, could be stopped easier than arm at your side to draw. I still think a hip to slightly behind hip with the right cant for the firearm is the best place to have it. Doesnt work as well with modern skin tight clothes, but can adjust clothing and I'd say it's worth it.
I agree with some of you reasoning but have different thoughts also. Distance saves lives when it comes to knuckles, knives, and projectiles. Someone I don’t trust gets close to me, I cover my weapons and turn my body. Basically, in fractions of a second I can move my weapon to a 6 or 3 o’clock position. To me, that’s a null benefit.

However, I’m rethinking the speed aspect of the 3:30-5 o’clock carry during various seated, standing, kneeling, etc. scenarios.

This is all just a reminder to never be complacent.
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Old 01-01-2020, 07:34 PM   #254
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Excellent analysis of the varying levels of response of each individual. Self-defense can be just that. No one has to be a hero. In the church case, God placed exactly the right person at the right time with the right level of training and skill to save an untold number of lives. The others following up and moving in are also heroes.

For school classrooms, you're also correct: a teacher with a gun, ready to defend his or her immediate area -- classroom -- is 100 percent more defense capability than not having a weapon. There should be no expectation of them to go Rambo on tracking down a shooter down the hall. Some may be trained and inclined to take the more aggressive path. Their choice. In either case, some defense capability is better than none.
I think that a lot of people for what ever reason think carrying a gun means you respond to threats in an offensive manner. Not sure why that is but its the reason people think that if your going to carry you need police like training. Like i mentioned, Teachers using as a last ditch defense, same thing for the office worker, or mom in the mall. I dont see them taking shots at a shooter 40 yds away or even 20. More like 10 or 30 feet. Those folks at the church were excellent and of course hero's. But had there just been 5 folks with guns who knew how to use them but with no training maybe a few more might have died but still no where near as many had non of them been armed. The constitution says to not be infringed but unfortunately my right has and continues to be infringed and a whole lot of folks seem to think thats ok
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:03 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by flywise View Post
What is the expectation of the armed citizen? Is it that they will confront a shooter or is it that you use it only if confronted by the shooter?
Example: Your in a walmart and hear shots. Do you move toward the shots or do you look for an escape route?
If i am carrying i am moving toward an escape route and will only pull my weapon out when i actually see the shooter and he is in proximity to me. I have never had the expectation that CHL holders are to move toward the offender. I think training to intentionally engage a shooter (move toward the shooter like a police officer would) is much different than training or practice for self defense. Someone who just wants a fighting chance at survival just needs to know how to operate the weapon because the target is going to be pretty close. When i think of armed teachers i dont see 10 teachers running down the halls looking to confront the shooter. I see 1-2 doing that and the rest sheltered in their rooms with the kids and only using the gun if the shooter enters that room. There is no danger to the kids if that teacher has minimal training or just practice at home. They will all be dead regardless if the shooter enters that room. You want to move toward and engage shooters.....get a lot of training and some really good insurance. Other than give the rest of us constitutional carry and dont worry about us
That is what I talked about earlier in the thread about playing what if. What if I was with my family at the mall and heard shots fired? Without going any further my response will be to move rapidly away from the gunshots and out of the mall and get into your car and leave. You can see videos of shots being fired at a location and you can tell that many people have no clue what to do. Many just freeze or try looking around to decide what they are going to do next. Like I said before, that is a bad time to start thinking of things when adrenaline is squirting out the top of your head.

It is my belief that if you think of things ahead of time, you will more likely respond quickly when something does happen. Physical practice is great but mental practice maybe more important and especially true if you’re not going to attack but merely survive.

They teach a class on active shooters call run, hide, fight although I think they have change the terminology to avoid, deny, defend. I know that some professionals don’t like that program but I think it is a good start. To make it short it means if you can escape, do so. If you cannot escape try to hide where you will not be found. If push comes to shove and you have no other option, attack the attacker preferably from a hidden spot.

But whether you go to a class or not, it takes a process going through it mentally. I have seen enough police videos of actual incidents and seeing some of the police survivors talk on camera to know that no matter what you were going to do, it would likely come out better if you think about it before hand. I have seen the videos where you can tell that the officer hesitated not because he is not trained because he has not thought of what to do. As I was taught in police survival classes, the body will not go where the mind has not previously gone. If you have thought about it beforehand then you’ll likely act quickly. If you have not thought about that scenario you would hesitate while your mind plays out your options. This might only take two or three seconds however that is two or three seconds that might cost you.

My best friend at work and I patrolled together for several years, were in Detectives together and routinely worked a housing project for security. We discussed and played out what we would do and the signals we would give if one of us was taken hostage. We also went over regular shooting incident scenarios and also trained at the gun range on addressing threats when we did not know until the last second which direction the threat would come from. We practiced drawing and engaging the target as we were moving but without knowing which way to move or engage until one of us was shout from behind what direction the threat was coming from. We did that with live fire on actual targets and varying timeframe where we’ve never really knew when or where the threat was coming from.

The main point of that is, he has shot and killed two people in the line of duty. On the last one about four years ago, I saw him about two hours after the shooting. Before I could open my mouth he looked at me and said, I did exactly what you and I trained to do. It was an instantaneous response and he told me without training like we did then it would likely not have come out the same. It was not the shooting skills which he has but the speed at which he realized the threat and moved to counteract it. He got off seven rounds in slightly over two seconds with two clear pauses in his shot string. I told him that he was probably reacquiring his front side and he said yes. When he would see the front side flashing front of his eyes, he would squeeze off a couple of rounds. The pauses were only about a 1/4 second but are very discernible on the video.

The whole point I have been trying to get at is to think about it before it ever happens. Hopefully it never will. For a very unfortunate few however, it will happen and thinking about it before is a lot better than thinking about it when shots are flying. From my experience going through scenarios about what if helps you react more quickly even if you do no physical training.

In my opinion
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:24 PM   #256
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A good start would be when a full grown man tries to put the magazine in his Brand New automatic pistol that he is "qualifying" with BACKWARDS(bullets pointing at him) he should be immediately sent home..
SMH
Would sending him home educate him further? Seems counter-intuitive to me.
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:53 PM   #257
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That is what I talked about earlier in the thread about playing what if. What if I was with my family at the mall and heard shots fired? Without going any further my response will be to move rapidly away from the gunshots and out of the mall and get into your car and leave. You can see videos of shots being fired at a location and you can tell that many people have no clue what to do. Many just freeze or try looking around to decide what they are going to do next. Like I said before, that is a bad time to start thinking of things when adrenaline is squirting out the top of your head.

It is my belief that if you think of things ahead of time, you will more likely respond quickly when something does happen. Physical practice is great but mental practice maybe more important and especially true if you’re not going to attack but merely survive.

They teach a class on active shooters call run, hide, fight although I think they have change the terminology to avoid, deny, defend. I know that some professionals don’t like that program but I think it is a good start. To make it short it means if you can escape, do so. If you cannot escape try to hide where you will not be found. If push comes to shove and you have no other option, attack the attacker preferably from a hidden spot.

But whether you go to a class or not, it takes a process going through it mentally. I have seen enough police videos of actual incidents and seeing some of the police survivors talk on camera to know that no matter what you were going to do, it would likely come out better if you think about it before hand. I have seen the videos where you can tell that the officer hesitated not because he is not trained because he has not thought of what to do. As I was taught in police survival classes, the body will not go where the mind has not previously gone. If you have thought about it beforehand then you’ll likely act quickly. If you have not thought about that scenario you would hesitate while your mind plays out your options. This might only take two or three seconds however that is two or three seconds that might cost you.

My best friend at work and I patrolled together for several years, were in Detectives together and routinely worked a housing project for security. We discussed and played out what we would do and the signals we would give if one of us was taken hostage. We also went over regular shooting incident scenarios and also trained at the gun range on addressing threats when we did not know until the last second which direction the threat would come from. We practiced drawing and engaging the target as we were moving but without knowing which way to move or engage until one of us was shout from behind what direction the threat was coming from. We did that with live fire on actual targets and varying timeframe where we’ve never really knew when or where the threat was coming from.

The main point of that is, he has shot and killed two people in the line of duty. On the last one about four years ago, I saw him about two hours after the shooting. Before I could open my mouth he looked at me and said, I did exactly what you and I trained to do. It was an instantaneous response and he told me without training like we did then it would likely not have come out the same. It was not the shooting skills which he has but the speed at which he realized the threat and moved to counteract it. He got off seven rounds in slightly over two seconds with two clear pauses in his shot string. I told him that he was probably reacquiring his front side and he said yes. When he would see the front side flashing front of his eyes, he would squeeze off a couple of rounds. The pauses were only about a 1/4 second but are very discernible on the video.

The whole point I have been trying to get at is to think about it before it ever happens. Hopefully it never will. For a very unfortunate few however, it will happen and thinking about it before is a lot better than thinking about it when shots are flying. From my experience going through scenarios about what if helps you react more quickly even if you do no physical training.

In my opinion
I agree with this 100%
As a fireman i constantly go over scenarios in my head and by watching youtube videos of structure fires. That type of mental training no doubt helps.

My church by the video is about the same size or smaller and I go over my response nearly every time im in there even though i rarely carry....but the conversation with my pastor and other elders will come up soon.
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:55 PM   #258
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I am only using your post to explain the old and new law.



You were absolutely correct that SB535 removed churches from prohibited locations.



The problem in reading that bill alone is that it cuts out most of the actual Penal Code section and just shows the changed part. If you go to the Penal Code and read the actual law but much further down (very long section) it says that the law prohibiting carry in churches does not apply unless they had a 30.06 sign.



So carrying in a church was only prohibited if the proper signage was posted. If that is true, why even have the law? Any place can prohibit lawful handgun license carry even today with a 30.06 or 30.07 sign.



I had to read it a couple of times to figure this one out back then.....



Any location could prohibit the lawful carry of a handgun even with a handgun license by merely posting the proper signs. Why was at church (and a couple of other places) different and placed under the prohibited places law?



The difference is...... one is a felony and one is a misdemeanor. So if Walmart put out a 30.06 sign and you violated the law, it was (and still is) a misdemeanor. If a church put out a 30.06 sign, it was a felony because of churches being put into the prohibited places section of the law.



What SB535 did was remove churches from the felony section. A church can still ban handguns by putting put out the 30.06 or 30.07 signs and it will still be against the law to carry in a church. Again SB535 didn’t change the requirement for the sign, it just changed the penalty by taking away the felony which is basically what you were correctly stating.



The other change in 2019 was for the private security law. A company acting as Private Security (not police officers) is required to have a state license. Several churches had their own security teams of just church members who were armed. It eventually came into the discussion that these church members were in fact acting like a security company requiring a license even though they may not be getting paid. It was a technicality that made churches possibly violating the law by having unlicensed “security”.



Was volunteering church members carrying handguns in church really the same as an unlicensed security company because they discussed “what if” scenarios?



I have my doubts however the legislature made it a moot point by changing that private security law and essentially exempted churches. I think it was SB2065.



Clear as mud?



2019 did not make church carry legal. It moved it from a felony to a misdemeanor if signs posted. Then we saw the waiving of a private security license for churches.



If anyone really cares at this point....


Excellent post
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:21 AM   #259
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competed and won gold and silver the in the state police Olympics with handgun,,, never lost a match for accuracy or speed,,,
How can you never lose a match and win silver? I thought silver was for second place? Or did you somehow win gold and silver at the same time? Just curious.
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:36 AM   #260
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How can you never lose a match and win silver? I thought silver was for second place? Or did you somehow win gold and silver at the same time? Just curious.
Nice!
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Old 01-02-2020, 01:01 PM   #261
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The 2A is not the problem and I do realize that it is nonnegotiable and that is a good thing.. Own all the guns you want.. Keep them at home.

My problem is with the CHL and how easy it is to get.. If a person is going to be "licensed" to conceal carry with loaded weapons, which MANY do, in crowded public places, then the training required and the proficiency one should have to demonstrate should be much greater then what it currently is.. Its almost a joke.. Seen it first hand..
I can "own all the guns I want.. keep them at home"?? Did I read that right. I thought you said you were as pro 2A as the next guy?... The right to bear arms as long as they're kept at home?
I'm having trouble processing this.....

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Old 01-02-2020, 02:35 PM   #262
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I can "own all the guns I want.. keep them at home"?? Did I read that right. I thought you said you were as pro 2A as the next guy?... The right to bear arms as long as they're kept at home?
I'm having trouble processing this.....

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Read the rest of my posts and you may or may not figure out what I mean..

But yea if you own a vehicle and do not know how to "safely" and responsibly handle/use it, drive it, then please leave it parked in your driveway.. No one wants to be at risk because someone else decides to be irresponsible.. Same goes for guns..

Some poor 61 year old lady was just killed New Years eve, hit in the top of the head by a falling bullet, because some idiot with a gun decided to shoot it into the air.. But that was his constitutional "Right"
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:08 PM   #263
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Read the rest of my posts and you may or may not figure out what I mean..



But yea if you own a vehicle and do not know how to "safely" and responsibly handle/use it, drive it, then please leave it parked in your driveway.. No one wants to be at risk because someone else decides to be irresponsible.. Same goes for guns..



Some poor 61 year old lady was just killed New Years eve, hit in the top of the head by a falling bullet, because some idiot with a gun decided to shoot it into the air.. But that was his constitutional "Right"
Your not alone in your liberal views.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/usa-to...hurch-shooting

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Old 01-02-2020, 03:13 PM   #264
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Read the rest of my posts and you may or may not figure out what I mean..



But yea if you own a vehicle and do not know how to "safely" and responsibly handle/use it, drive it, then please leave it parked in your driveway.. No one wants to be at risk because someone else decides to be irresponsible.. Same goes for guns..



Some poor 61 year old lady was just killed New Years eve, hit in the top of the head by a falling bullet, because some idiot with a gun decided to shoot it into the air.. But that was his constitutional "Right"


Freedom is scary stuff!
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:18 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by ttaxidermy View Post
Read the rest of my posts and you may or may not figure out what I mean..

But yea if you own a vehicle and do not know how to "safely" and responsibly handle/use it, drive it, then please leave it parked in your driveway.. No one wants to be at risk because someone else decides to be irresponsible.. Same goes for guns..

Some poor 61 year old lady was just killed New Years eve, hit in the top of the head by a falling bullet, because some idiot with a gun decided to shoot it into the air.. But that was his constitutional "Right"
Not a constitutional right to fire a gun into the air. That's already against the law. Has nothing to do with the right to bear arms. You can't twist truths to prove out your agenda. There are laws to prevent someone from reckless driving...even if they have a license. There are laws that prevent people from carrying recklessly. People like you, anxious to give away the rights of others, scare me almost as much as an active shooter.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:22 PM   #266
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Would sending him home educate him further? Seems counter-intuitive to me.
Agreed. I think it would take someone about 2 minutes to show him the proper way to do it and I bet he'd never put a magazine in backward again. Someone taught me. Someone taught you. Someone taught all of us at some point. I was lucky enough to learn at a young age, but many didn't.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:23 PM   #267
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Freedom is scary stuff!
Yes it is, yes it is.......but that is why it is desired in nearly every corner of the globe!

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Old 01-02-2020, 03:24 PM   #268
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Read the rest of my posts and you may or may not figure out what I mean..

But yea if you own a vehicle and do not know how to "safely" and responsibly handle/use it, drive it, then please leave it parked in your driveway.. No one wants to be at risk because someone else decides to be irresponsible.. Same goes for guns..

Some poor 61 year old lady was just killed New Years eve, hit in the top of the head by a falling bullet, because some idiot with a gun decided to shoot it into the air.. But that was his constitutional "Right"
Please don't tell my teenagers driving a vehicle is now a constitutional right.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:27 PM   #269
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Yes it is, yes it is.......but that is why it is desired in nearly every corner of the globe!

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Indeed. I’m amazed by the “regulate good decisions” mentally. I’ll accept the risks and keep my freedom.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:30 PM   #270
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Indeed. I’m amazed by the “regulate good decisions” mentally. I’ll accept the risks and keep my freedom.
Here here!!!

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Old 01-02-2020, 03:35 PM   #271
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Please don't tell my teenagers driving a vehicle is now a constitutional right.
Don't worry. It's just some more nonsense that he made up. My teenagers have no rights that I don't afford them. Well, they have the right to remain silent....they just don't have the ability.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:36 PM   #272
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Freedom is scary stuff!
You aren't kidding.... As we see in the news daily, some folks cant handle handle it..
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:37 PM   #273
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Please don't tell my teenagers driving a vehicle is now a constitutional right.
Yea thats what I meant..
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:39 PM   #274
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Indeed. I’m amazed by the “regulate good decisions” mentally. I’ll accept the risks and keep my freedom.
But what generally happens when freedoms are misused?
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:40 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by curtintex View Post
Agreed. I think it would take someone about 2 minutes to show him the proper way to do it and I bet he'd never put a magazine in backward again. Someone taught me. Someone taught you. Someone taught all of us at some point. I was lucky enough to learn at a young age, but many didn't.
We spent about 6 hours over the holiday with 4 kids ages 7-13 burning up .22 rounds, and targets at a "constant grin" rate. We don't even load mags anymore. I watched every kid load their mags, make the rifle ready, empty the mag, make the rifle safe again, and walk away from the table....DOZENS of times....without ever forgetting what we taught them. We started on handguns, but we're easing into that.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:43 PM   #276
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We spent about 6 hours over the holiday with 4 kids ages 7-13 burning up .22 rounds, and targets at a "constant grin" rate. We don't even load mags anymore. I watched every kid load their mags, make the rifle ready, empty the mag, make the rifle safe again, and walk away from the table....DOZENS of times....without ever forgetting what we taught them. We started on handguns, but we're easing into that.
Good deal. Good deal.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:44 PM   #277
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We spent about 6 hours over the holiday with 4 kids ages 7-13 burning up .22 rounds, and targets at a "constant grin" rate. We don't even load mags anymore. I watched every kid load their mags, make the rifle ready, empty the mag, make the rifle safe again, and walk away from the table....DOZENS of times....without ever forgetting what we taught them. We started on handguns, but we're easing into that.
Country folk aren't the ones that scare me.. For this reason^^^^.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:45 PM   #278
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We spent about 6 hours over the holiday with 4 kids ages 7-13 burning up .22 rounds, and targets at a "constant grin" rate. We don't even load mags anymore. I watched every kid load their mags, make the rifle ready, empty the mag, make the rifle safe again, and walk away from the table....DOZENS of times....without ever forgetting what we taught them. We started on handguns, but we're easing into that.
That's awesome. They're gonna need those skills when people try to determine whether they are worthy to carry a gun.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:46 PM   #279
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We spent about 6 hours over the holiday with 4 kids ages 7-13 burning up .22 rounds, and targets at a "constant grin" rate. We don't even load mags anymore. I watched every kid load their mags, make the rifle ready, empty the mag, make the rifle safe again, and walk away from the table....DOZENS of times....without ever forgetting what we taught them. We started on handguns, but we're easing into that.
Been doing the same for a few years now. Just an 2 hours ago I sent my 11 year old boy on his solo walk about with the .22 nylon 66 at the lease. Just got back to camp.
He has been shooting my .40 and 9mm and 22's for 3 years.
I am not a gun guy but have made it a priority to teach my kids and wife a lot more than I ever knew
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:47 PM   #280
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that's awesome. They're gonna need those skills when they carry a gun.

fify
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Old 01-02-2020, 07:18 PM   #281
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But what generally happens when freedoms are misused?


Um, I believe that’s called a stretch in the grey bar motel.


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Old 01-02-2020, 08:52 PM   #282
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We spent about 6 hours over the holiday with 4 kids ages 7-13 burning up .22 rounds, and targets at a "constant grin" rate. We don't even load mags anymore. I watched every kid load their mags, make the rifle ready, empty the mag, make the rifle safe again, and walk away from the table....DOZENS of times....without ever forgetting what we taught them. We started on handguns, but we're easing into that.


Quality!
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Old 01-02-2020, 09:25 PM   #283
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I am only using your post to explain the old and new law.



You were absolutely correct that SB535 removed churches from prohibited locations.



The problem in reading that bill alone is that it cuts out most of the actual Penal Code section and just shows the changed part. If you go to the Penal Code and read the actual law but much further down (very long section) it says that the law prohibiting carry in churches does not apply unless they had a 30.06 sign.



So carrying in a church was only prohibited if the proper signage was posted. If that is true, why even have the law? Any place can prohibit lawful handgun license carry even today with a 30.06 or 30.07 sign.



I had to read it a couple of times to figure this one out back then.....



Any location could prohibit the lawful carry of a handgun even with a handgun license by merely posting the proper signs. Why was at church (and a couple of other places) different and placed under the prohibited places law?



The difference is...... one is a felony and one is a misdemeanor. So if Walmart put out a 30.06 sign and you violated the law, it was (and still is) a misdemeanor. If a church put out a 30.06 sign, it was a felony because of churches being put into the prohibited places section of the law.



What SB535 did was remove churches from the felony section. A church can still ban handguns by putting put out the 30.06 or 30.07 signs and it will still be against the law to carry in a church. Again SB535 didn’t change the requirement for the sign, it just changed the penalty by taking away the felony which is basically what you were correctly stating.



The other change in 2019 was for the private security law. A company acting as Private Security (not police officers) is required to have a state license. Several churches had their own security teams of just church members who were armed. It eventually came into the discussion that these church members were in fact acting like a security company requiring a license even though they may not be getting paid. It was a technicality that made churches possibly violating the law by having unlicensed “security”.



Was volunteering church members carrying handguns in church really the same as an unlicensed security company because they discussed “what if” scenarios?



I have my doubts however the legislature made it a moot point by changing that private security law and essentially exempted churches. I think it was SB2065.



Clear as mud?



2019 did not make church carry legal. It moved it from a felony to a misdemeanor if signs posted. Then we saw the waiving of a private security license for churches.



If anyone really cares at this point....


Well thought out explanation as usual.

Thanks again.


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Old 01-02-2020, 09:41 PM   #284
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I've got no problem with any legally able folks carrying guns. However If they're going to engage and not just retreat armed, they better be good at assessing the situation. I do not trust every bubba with a gun to do that. But I wouldn't expect them to.
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Old 01-02-2020, 10:16 PM   #285
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Seems prudent and advisable for any church to have a security team -- volunteers or pros or a combination, and for those folks to hone their skills and train for various scenarios that may arise.
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Old 01-02-2020, 10:38 PM   #286
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Read the rest of my posts and you may or may not figure out what I mean..

But yea if you own a vehicle and do not know how to "safely" and responsibly handle/use it, drive it, then please leave it parked in your driveway.. No one wants to be at risk because someone else decides to be irresponsible.. Same goes for guns..

Some poor 61 year old lady was just killed New Years eve, hit in the top of the head by a falling bullet, because some idiot with a gun decided to shoot it into the air.. But that was his constitutional "Right"
Dude....I tried to stay out of this but you are just reaching now. You say you are pro 2A but this “I’m scared mentality” is getting ridiculous. I think you started off by just advocating for maybe stricter training for LTC certifications. I totally disagree...but I can at least respect your view there.

But then you took it to whole new level with the statement above in bold!!! Are you serious? That is exactly what I would expect to hear from the gun grabbing antis. You do realize you just blamed the gun...not the individual, right?

Good grief man....if you feel that our “freedoms” are “misused” then you are part of the problem. What exactly do you want to see changed? More strict regulations with regard to firearm “safety”? It’s asinine to think you can regulate or mandate personal responsibility. As Curt mentioned there are already laws in place preventing people from being STUPID! What will change the actions of an idiot or someone intent on doing harm? Who do you want to put in charge of establishing the rules? The feds? The state? Local law?? Do you trust them to keep score and monitor EVERYONE? Sorry..........but I **** sure don’t.

”Own all the guns you want, just keep them at home”???? Wow!!!!
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:08 PM   #287
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Seems prudent and advisable for any church to have a security team -- volunteers or pros or a combination, and for those folks to hone their skills and train for various scenarios that may arise.
After this silly crap happened at White Settlement, I started the conversation, with the church leadership, concerning this very thing. I found out two things.

1) We got nothing. Nada. Zilch. I know of at least two people who conceal carry at my church. I'm sure there are more. I hope there are more.

2) They are worried about the liability of a church member, who is on the security team, accidentally shooting another church member during an active shooter incident and/or a member of the team having an accidental discharge of some kind.

My thoughts: The first item listed above is unacceptable. That will change.

The second item might have a 'work around' if the individuals all carry additional insurance through a carrier like Texas Law Shield. And obviously if there is a security group that is formed, additional training will be required.

What do y'all think?
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:22 PM   #288
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I would tell them a security team has become part of caring for your congregation

#2- If I was in church and an active shooter situation occurred it would be better to have a person possibly struck by friendly fire than a high probability of active shooter killing them
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:27 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Preacher Man View Post
After this silly crap happened at White Settlement, I started the conversation, with the church leadership, concerning this very thing. I found out two things.

1) We got nothing. Nada. Zilch. I know of at least two people who conceal carry at my church. I'm sure there are more. I hope there are more.

2) They are worried about the liability of a church member, who is on the security team, accidentally shooting another church member during an active shooter incident and/or a member of the team having an accidental discharge of some kind.

My thoughts: The first item listed above is unacceptable. That will change.

The second item might have a 'work around' if the individuals all carry additional insurance through a carrier like Texas Law Shield. And obviously if there is a security group that is formed, additional training will be required.

What do y'all think?
I'm an elder of a fairly large church, and we've dealt with this over the last few years. Most people agree that having people armed and organized is prudent. Obviously, almost no church is going to have a team of people trained to the degree that we'd all like to have. But being a big group of unarmed sitting ducks is never a good idea. (Although there are always gonna be a few people that would disagree with that.)

The biggest difficulty is with insurance companies. Ours won't insure us if the church has an official armed security team. They are OK with us allowing folks to carry on their own, but the added liability of having it a church sponsored team that is required or encouraged to be armed makes them nervous. We haven't revisited that with them since the new law passed. The new law may have eliminated that concern for them, I don't know.

We do have a security team that is spread out all over the different parts of our building, and they walk around and monitor everything the whole time. The vast majority of them are CHL holders and armed - as are several other members. We pay to have a police officer on site during our services as well. Having a patrol car in the parking lot and a uniformed police officer walking around is good in all kinds of ways. There were a few that objected to that when we first talked about hiring a LEO. They felt it would make the church appear less friendly and inviting. I see their point, but most of us felt that having a church that is more secure gives people warm fuzzies too.

We have almost 30 different exterior doors on the property. We lock all but just a small handful a few minutes after services get started. The doors that are left unlocked have a security team member closely monitoring them. Some are always locked, but some are unlocked before and after service to allow people easier access in and out of the building. Of course, we have to have doors that can be opened easily from the inside even while they're locked from the outside to allow folks a way of escape in case of fire or any other emergency. We have video cameras all over the place.

In spite of all of that, I'm sure that if somebody wanted to find a way to come into our building and hurt people, there'd be a way. But, hopefully, we would at least be able to minimize the damage, as they were able to in White Settlement. I pray like crazy we never get to find out how well prepared (or not) we are.

Last edited by Shane; 01-02-2020 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:33 PM   #290
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Carry your piece
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:37 PM   #291
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I think you're right Shane. I think the biggest hurdle will be with the church insurance. I'm hoping that the requirement for all members of the security team having LTC insurance will do the trick. I'm also wondering if having all the members of the team take some sort of pistol training class would help with the insurance "issue".
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:47 PM   #292
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I think you're right Shane. I think the biggest hurdle will be with the church insurance. I'm hoping that the requirement for all members of the security team having LTC insurance will do the trick. I'm also wondering if having all the members of the team take some sort of pistol training class would help with the insurance "issue".
LTC insurance wouldn’t do anything to insulate the church from litigation, and that’s what the concern is, not the individual LTC guy’s liability.
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Old 01-02-2020, 11:49 PM   #293
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I would tell them a security team has become part of caring for your congregation

#2- If I was in church and an active shooter situation occurred it would be better to have a person possibly struck by friendly fire than a high probability of active shooter killing them
Amen....it’s really that simple. I just don’t understand all the fear of something bad “potentially” happening. What are the alternatives? Do nothing....and just hope a situation doesn’t occur?
It’s like carrying auto, home or life insurance. You don’t need it until something happens. Then you dang sure better have it.
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Old 01-03-2020, 12:02 AM   #294
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I think you're right Shane. I think the biggest hurdle will be with the church insurance. I'm hoping that the requirement for all members of the security team having LTC insurance will do the trick. I'm also wondering if having all the members of the team take some sort of pistol training class would help with the insurance "issue".
Having all the members individually insured on their own won't make the church's insurer more likely to insure an armed security team. That doesn't do anything to alleviate any potential liability on the church's part. Based on our conversations with our insurance people, I don't think that requiring a training class would help either. The insurance company is worried about potential claims resulting from improper or negligent use of firearms, which a training program might help alleviate some. But they're also concerned about claims against the church from bad guys and/or their families if the church folks did a professional job of using a firearm to fend off some kind of attack. And then there's the added level of scrutiny that could be expected from a team that is supposed to be well-trained, potentially raising the bar of expectation on the security team and the church.

Trial lawyers will think up every reason they can to sue you, even if you did everything right. It won't surprise me a bit if the church in White Settlement and/or the hero get sued by the perp's family. It's also possible that a family of a church member who was killed or injured in an attack like that could sue the church for not protecting everyone adequately. Based on what I know about the folks at West Freeway, I doubt very seriously that would happen in this case. But it is definitely something that can happen in similar instances.

Dang trial lawyers and insurance companies seem to enjoy finding all kinds of ways to make life difficult for the rest of us.
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Old 01-03-2020, 12:17 AM   #295
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Dude....I tried to stay out of this but you are just reaching now. You say you are pro 2A but this “I’m scared mentality” is getting ridiculous. I think you started off by just advocating for maybe stricter training for LTC certifications. I totally disagree...but I can at least respect your view there.



But then you took it to whole new level with the statement above in bold!!! Are you serious? That is exactly what I would expect to hear from the gun grabbing antis. You do realize you just blamed the gun...not the individual, right?



Good grief man....if you feel that our “freedoms” are “misused” then you are part of the problem. What exactly do you want to see changed? More strict regulations with regard to firearm “safety”? It’s asinine to think you can regulate or mandate personal responsibility. As Curt mentioned there are already laws in place preventing people from being STUPID! What will change the actions of an idiot or someone intent on doing harm? Who do you want to put in charge of establishing the rules? The feds? The state? Local law?? Do you trust them to keep score and monitor EVERYONE? Sorry..........but I **** sure don’t.



”Own all the guns you want, just keep them at home”???? Wow!!!!


Thanks, Rascal. I teed him up good and he ripped it over the green.

He’s a statist but hasn’t admitted it to himself yet. He wants to regulate 2A, period. He can’t handle that freedom means stupid people have rights too.

Plenty of laws are on the books. Let’s just enforce what we’ve got, nothing more and we could probably do with less.
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Old 01-03-2020, 12:39 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Preacher Man View Post
After this silly crap happened at White Settlement, I started the conversation, with the church leadership, concerning this very thing. I found out two things.

1) We got nothing. Nada. Zilch. I know of at least two people who conceal carry at my church. I'm sure there are more. I hope there are more.

2) They are worried about the liability of a church member, who is on the security team, accidentally shooting another church member during an active shooter incident and/or a member of the team having an accidental discharge of some kind.

My thoughts: The first item listed above is unacceptable. That will change.

The second item might have a 'work around' if the individuals all carry additional insurance through a carrier like Texas Law Shield. And obviously if there is a security group that is formed, additional training will be required.

What do y'all think?
What you need is a little good old fashioned, off the record, collusion....which of course you would have no knowledge of, and wouldn't sanction if you did.

When does the Men's Club meet next....


You'll have to forgive me, I don't know what denomination of church you preach at. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and the Men's Club handled such things as "weeds in the flower bed", and the like. May be that you can't even call it "Men's Club" anymore...

Last edited by Dale Moser; 01-03-2020 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 01-03-2020, 12:43 AM   #297
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Thanks, Rascal. I teed him up good and he ripped it over the green.

He’s a statist but hasn’t admitted it to himself yet. He wants to regulate 2A, period. He can’t handle that freedom means stupid people have rights too.

Plenty of laws are on the books. Let’s just enforce what we’ve got, nothing more and we could probably do with less.
Lol.. You guys crack me up... Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.
Yea I'm not one bit ashamed to admit that I've said, on numerous occasions, "that idiot shouldn't be allowed to own a gun"... It won't be the last either... Some of these posts make that perfectly clear.. The 2nd gives us rights that carry a lot of power but it does'nt give us the right to be and act irresponsiblly. Owning, carrying, and using firearms also carries with it a huge level of responsibility... That doesn't register with many..

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Old 01-03-2020, 12:55 AM   #298
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Lol.. You guys crack me up... Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.
Yea I'm not one bit ashamed to admit that I've said, on numerous occasions, "that idiot shouldn't be allowed to own a gun"... It won't be the last either... Some of these posts make that perfectly clear.. The 2nd gives us rights that carry a lot of power but it does'nt give us the right to be and act irresponsiblly. Owning, carrying, and using firearms also carries with it a huge level of responsibility... That doesn't register with many..


Forest for the trees, brother.

“Owning, carrying, and using firearms also carries with it a huge level of responsibility... That doesn't register with many..”

This is what gun laws, and all laws are for. As a civilized society we regulate many things; child welfare, treatment of animals, property ownership....as just a few.

You’re trying to place a higher level of responsibility on gun position than other civil responsibilities; you’ve referenced driving twice.

And I’m glad to see you’re laughing. You’ve been cracking us up for two days.
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Old 01-03-2020, 01:17 AM   #299
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What you need is a little good old fashioned, off the record, collusion....which of course you would have no knowledge of, and wouldn't sanction if you did.

When does the Men's Club meet next....


You'll have to forgive me, I don't know what denomination of church you preach at. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and the Men's Club handled such things as "weeds in the flower bed", and the like. May be that you can't even call it "Men's Club" anymore...
I'm not a preacher. Its just a nickname I got a long time ago. Probably should have picked a better screen.

Very good advice from you and Shane. I appreciate it.
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Old 01-03-2020, 09:52 AM   #300
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What you need is a little good old fashioned, off the record, collusion....which of course you would have no knowledge of, and wouldn't sanction if you did.

When does the Men's Club meet next....


You'll have to forgive me, I don't know what denomination of church you preach at. I grew up in the Methodist Church, and the Men's Club handled such things as "weeds in the flower bed", and the like. May be that you can't even call it "Men's Club" anymore...
This will be the route we will be going. Nobody needs to know a thing
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