Anybody work for a City’s water Dept? Got a math problem...

[.17fireball]

Any logical thinkers on here? I am in the process of disputing a water bill from February. We received our water bill showing we used 19,000 gallons of water in one month. When we spoke with the billing department they stated we had a “leak” on February 27 between 1:00 am and 2:00 am which registers 10,000 gallons on the meter. Then, again at 6:00 am to 7:00 am the same morning we had another “leak” which registered 4,800 gallons. This is being metered with a new digital meter that was installed back in November and is read by satellite.

Now let’s do the logical math. 10,000 gallons in one hour works out to be 166.66 gallons per minute!! Out of a 3/4” water line...... come on.... That’s 3 - 55 gallon barrels filled to the top with 3/4” water hose in one minute for all us deer hunters. Impossible

Just curious if any Water Dept employees might have an average flow rate expected out of a 3/4” water line on normal city pressures.

So far we have just spoken to billing dept employees and one water meter tech who came out and said it looks like his meter is functioning properly at this time and this seems like a toilet flapper that was stuck open.....
We filled out the dispute forms and sent them in so maybe we can start to get to the bottom of this. But.... what says the green screen gurus.... is my mathing off? Is 166 gallons a minute possible out of a “leaking” water line?

We have had no leaks and no we don’t have an irrigation system or a water softener etc. It just don’t add up......

Just for reference, I happen to have a 10,000 gallon above ground pool in my back yard which takes almost 2 days to fill up with my hose bib and a 5/8” garden hose. I know this because I’ve filled it every year for the last 3 years.
Any ideas on what’s wrong with my meter?

[bmac]

Anybody work for a City’s water Dept? Got a math problem...

Q —> 10,000 gallons is around 1337 cubic feet/hr

Q=VA

A —> 3/4” line is 0.003067958984375 ft^2
so
V —> 435,794.469289039 ft/h or 121 ft/s

Seems you would have had a jet stream shooting though something if water was coming out at that speed for an hour straight.

Found this as well, but you are 7x more than high pressure.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapata

[Hoggslayer]

Maybe one of the city's engineers can explain how they get their pipes to defy the laws of physics. 10,000 gal a hour is only possible if you had 2.5 inch plumbing.

[RedBear78]

I think most 3/4 meters is max 30 gpm and that’s wide open pipe at the meter with average pressure 50 to 70 psi and running it through 3/4 pipe your only going to get about 20 gpm at a maximum.I’m an irrigator and have run into bad meters or bad readings a number of times over the years.We’ve even turned meters off for months at a time a still gotten outrageous water bills. You can put your own meter on the line and take pictures and verify the outlandish readings.

[Mrsailfish]

If you new the water pressure and the size pipe you should be able to calculate the gallons used. I do not know the math to do that though. I am on a water board and we have people that dispute their bill... you should contact your water board and have this put on the agenda for the next board meeting. Get all your info so you can present it to them at the meeting, and you should have a history of water used per month. A leak that big does not fix its self. Ask for a new meter also.

[.17fireball]

Bmac, thanks for the chart. Confirms my suspicions that even a master electrician such as myself still knows enough about water lines to get by in life

Redbear,20-30 gpm sounds about right to me as well. Thanks for the info. I doubt it’ll get to the point of installing a separate meter to verify but who knows at this point...

Hoggslayer , I cant quit laughing and your statement may or may not get used in my next conversation with the authorities having jurisdiction

Mrsailfish, I appreciate the info. I have started the dispute process so we’ll see where it takes us. Definitely asking for a new meter! I asked the meter tech to check the flow rates by bringing a 1000 gallon tank over to the house and filling it up to check the readings. I mean, at the flow rate I have, it would only take 6-7 minutes of his time to verify it

Thanks fellas

[DRT]

The average home uses 144 gallons per day per person.

I spent 6 years in the meter department with the city of Fort Worthless and have a lot of experience resolving billing and usage issues. 19,000 gallons is a little over 633 gallons a day. A family of 4 that's not much off the given average. A running toilet/leaking flapper or a sprinkler control valve not making a good shut off and several other things can use a lot you don't easily recognize.

Their explanation sounds like the neighbor used your hose to fill their pool or maybe you have a broken line, missing heads in a sprinkler system.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[TexasBlazer72]

Interesting scenario. I had the exact conversation when our local department installed a 'smart meter' at our place. Magically in one afternoon, I used 36,000 gallons of water, and was told I had a leak upon getting that surprise bill in the mail. I asked for a report of daily use, and sure enough it was the exact day that the meter was installed based on their work order.

The woman asked if I filled my pool? I don't have a pool.

Long story short. I am mad, they don't care, I refuse to pay the bill and ask for it to be corrected, they decline, they come and shut off the water at the house. Round and round we go, and I eventually have to pay the phantom bill.

I still get aggravated thinking about it to this day. Got to have water though.

[DRT]

Remember to ask for the final reading on the old meter and how much water they flushed through your hose bibs when installing the new meter. That is SOP and I've seen them leave a few on as they go down the street to the next one and take a few minutes to get back.
Cities use the lowest bid contractor to do the large scale meter change outs. It costs them in other ways.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[texan16]

According to the information you have given, it is obvious that there is a a faulty meter. No way you could run that much water in an hour. If there is a leak that big there is no way it is going to leak for an hour and then just fix itself and then start leaking again 4 hours later.........meter issue. Good luck getting it resolved

[BlackoutRam2500]

Meter issue. Anything digital can fail no matter what they tell you.

My MIL got a $120,000 water bill from the City of Oakridge for one month of usage. Yes, you read that right. She and her 88 year old father were the only 2 occupants living in the house. The old man about had a heart attack when she showed him the bill and asked for his half. lol


Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

[Txfshrmn]

So what was the actual bill for? The amount you are disputing? I know right is right and I'm not disputing that. They need to be held accountable for their stupidness!

[Tryton]

Escalate to City Manager/Mayor or City Council if necessary. Or even start with the Public Works director.

[twistedmidnite]

I work for a municipality. We also have electronic meters and they do sometimes read wrong. Like was stated above go to the city manager. This said, we have parts of town that have 180 psi at the meter. I can attest that a 3/4 line is hot hot with that much psi. However you shouldn't see over 80 psi at the house

[kaizen]

I've done a bunch of the smart meter retrofits over the years. All these meters have data logging. The utility department should have a procedure for disputing. Ask to see the data report. Talk with the person managing the department. Don't shy away from showing up at the water board meeting and talking about the problem. Ask to be placed on the agenda. If you are not on the agenda, they wont take action. One thing to keep in mind is that actual meter part of the meter is basically the same as what we have always used. A typical residential meter isn't rated above 30 gpm.