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Originally posted by ClearcreekDC View PostReally great points. How could we even have Form 1s. Great great point!
Once approved you may posses parts to make that silencer.
No extra parts may be kept and you cannot make new parts to repair your form 1 suppressor
I.e. you have to take it to an 07 SOT to make repairs
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Originally posted by TacticalCowboy View Post^^thats my thoughts too.
If I go to the hardware store and buy a shotgun with an 18” barrel and a hacksaw at the same time, am I getting arrested for “intent” to make an illegal firearm? I’d guess not.
Intent can be and often is inferred in a criminal case. You may tell everyone all day that you didn't intend to make an SBS, but the combination of the parts allows the jury to infer that you intended to make the unregistered SBS.
Same thing with a solvent trap.
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Originally posted by adam_p View Post.
I believe SC-Texas when he says people are being forced to turn them over, but has an end user actually been charged for having an undrilled solvent trap or is this just strong arming by the BATF knowing nobody is going to risk fighting it?
One guy came to me after the fact and had actually assembled a solvent trap into a silencer. The ATF tested it for GSR and it came back negative. They told him he would have been prosecuted if it had been positive for GSR.
They have prosecuted people for selling solvent traps. The charge was selling unregistered silencers.
They have prosecuted people for making unregistered silencers.
Candelario in Maryland
On inferring intent. Why are you using an opaque steel tube to catch solvent when. You cant tell if it's coming out clean?
A clear bottle let's you see what the patches and solvent look like and when it comes out clear. A wix fuel filter or maglite style tube doesn't. . .. .might a jury be able to infer intent right there in your choice of material?
So why does the form 1 mafia want to risk it? You aren't going to argue with the MAN when he is at your door and if you are prosecuted you will probably lose. The penalty is kind of steep.
On my end, this isn't an esoteric theoretical debate. It is what it is. The rest is just mental masturbation.
Posesion of an unregistered silencer is illegal.
Each individual silencer part is an unregistered silencer
Intent can be inferred
Read up on this.
Read up about the wipes debate
Read up about whether you can make a new baffle or end cap for your form 1 suppressor if you need to repair or just want to try a new configuration
Read up on the shoe string machinegun and the choreboy brass scrubbing pads letter if you want to read some purely absurd prose.
Read up on the possession of oil filters or even an adapter that screws on the end of your barrel and allows the attachment of a pilot filter.
I'm not saying it's not absurd. But the law is clear and intent is pretty easy to infer in this day and age.
So have a good night. Y'all have been informed and you can make informed decisions.
That is all.
Sent from my SM-N976V using TapatalkLast edited by SC-Texas; 09-26-2019, 11:41 PM.
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Originally posted by big_smith View PostThe short Form 1 waits have peaked my interest. Where do y’all purchase components for a homemade suppressor. I’m wanting to build a 30cal can.
solvent trap suppressor parts for sale
There are lots of choices. Subject to all I stated above.
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Originally posted by SC-Texas View PostGoogle search.
solvent trap suppressor parts for sale
There are lots of choices. Subject to all I stated above.
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Originally posted by SC-Texas View PostNo. But buy a 14" barrel or cut an 18" barrel to 14" and posses an 870 and you now have an SBS even if you dont put them together.
Intent can be and often is inferred in a criminal case. You may tell everyone all day that you didn't intend to make an SBS, but the combination of the parts allows the jury to infer that you intended to make the unregistered SBS.
Same thing with a solvent trap.
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It has been well established that a guy can own one Encore frame, pistol furniture, rifle furniture, pistol barrels, and rifle barrels, and change from rifle configuration to pistol and back again without committing a felony.
The same would seem to apply if I have an AR15 rifle, and purchase a shorty upper. Just because you own individual parts doesn’t mean you made an illegal firearm.
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Originally posted by TacticalCowboy View PostI know we’re getting off topic here, but how is owning a barrel equivalent to owning an illegal SBS?
It has been well established that a guy can own one Encore frame, pistol furniture, rifle furniture, pistol barrels, and rifle barrels, and change from rifle configuration to pistol and back again without committing a felony.
The same would seem to apply if I have an AR15 rifle, and purchase a shorty upper. Just because you own individual parts doesn’t mean you made an illegal firearm.
I think it falls back to intent: That ole government tactic where a team of lawyers and government agencies could prove you are a unicorn if given enough time. Right or wrong doesn’t matter, it’s about fighting a group with unlimited resources. Right doesn’t matter when fighting the man.
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ClearcreekDC, the law is black and white. Like any law though, it's open to interpretation. How you and I interpret it doesn't mean squat. Anyone with half a brain knows that flashlight parts, oil/fuel filters, and scrubbing pads are just every day items.
SC-Texas is telling you that it's How the ATF interprets it is what you need to worry about.
"Intent" CAN and WILL be inferred by them. That has been proven to be how they operate
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Originally posted by ClearcreekDC View PostPiggy backing off that.... If I buy a solvent trap my intent is not for that solvent trap to be used for silencing or muffling (It physically wont work for that.) Now if I drill that solvent trap out my intent for the solvent trap becomes to silence or muffle. If my materials do not have holes in them I have ZERO intent for them to silence or muffle.
There is a reason for lawyers and courts and case law and precedent. Not every situation is explicitly spelled out in the law. It can't be. You are staring in the face of a MOUNTAIN of evidence that your simplistic misrepresentation of intent is some kind of get-out-of-jail-free card. I'd personally like to see you bet on that.
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Originally posted by TacticalCowboy View PostI know we’re getting off topic here, but how is owning a barrel equivalent to owning an illegal SBS?
It has been well established that a guy can own one Encore frame, pistol furniture, rifle furniture, pistol barrels, and rifle barrels, and change from rifle configuration to pistol and back again without committing a felony.
The same would seem to apply if I have an AR15 rifle, and purchase a shorty upper. Just because you own individual parts doesn’t mean you made an illegal firearm.
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Originally posted by Samson View PostThat is a special determination that was made for the Encore line. It has been well established that you can only go from pistol to rifle in an AR 15. You can not go rifle to pistol as the ATF has determined that constitutes an SBR. Not saying it's right, but what the MAN has determined...
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If I stuck the short upper on the rifle lower, I most definitely have made a SBR.
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so simply purchasing solvent traps consists of the intent to manufacture an illegal suppressor?
This doesn't seem like something that could or would actually hold up in a court of law.
What about purchasing flash lights, oil filters, coat hangers or rubber bands?
What if someone possesses 9ea-AR15 uppers 4ea-16" barrels and 5ea-10.5" barrels and also possesses 4ea-rifle lowers and 4ea-pistol lowers...
is that illegal too?Last edited by BigJimmyRustler; 09-27-2019, 03:56 PM.
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