Deer University - Culling

[jshouse]

I hunt in an AR county. We are not allowed to cull.

Sure you can, you can take 2 spikes a year or 1 like this 6pt....



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[HighwayHunter]

Its important to note that they said culling does not work on free range properties and that allowing deer to age to 6-7+ along with habitat/rainfall/range conditions were the most important factors in antler growth.



Its very evident that culling/selective breeding works on high fence properties because otherwise 300"+ deer wouldn't exist.

I should’ve clarified in specifically discussing low fence operations, which I believe most TBH members hunt.


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[lovemylegacy]

If you really want to cull bucks, you need to do it at night. That's the only time they come out.

[BrokenJ]

Beating a dead horse. Its about removing mouths from range. Especially in high fences. You expect ranches to feed all bucks to 5 yrs old before killing? Not happening. Deer must die. Every ranch has different criteria for culling, removing, decreasing population, ect. It's ludicrous to think every buck should get a pass till maturity. It's also obvious that letting the cull reach maturity will increase his score.

[txwhitetail]

I dont want to feed the low ends of age classes just because they will score a little more if we let them get 5-7 yrs old. Maybe some folks like 90-120" 5-7 year old bucks and want to spend lots of $ to get them to 5.

I also know in part that genetics do play a large role in anything living. What type of control you have over that depends on how your ranch is set up and your management program.

[BrokenJ]

Its important to note that they said culling does not work on free range properties and that allowing deer to age to 6-7+ along with habitat/rainfall/range conditions were the most important factors in antler growth.

Its very evident that culling/selective breeding works on high fence properties because otherwise 300"+ deer wouldn't exist.

Why does everyone think on a population basis? Think individual basis. Kill the inferior. If that cull is dead that opens up more resources for the remaining deer bucks and does both. Also eliminating the trash doesn't help the genetic pool in the field, but it also doesn't hurt.

[Throwin Darts]

Shooting young bucks in a low fence setting is going to do absolutely nothing to change the genetics on the place.

Culling should be more about taking mouths off the ranch vs shooting young inferior deer. Taking mouths off the food source will help the herd overall.

My strategy is to take a certain number of mouths off the ranch each year. We don't shoot immature bucks. Period. I don't care what their head gear looks like. If a buck isn't mature it doesn't get shot. If we decide to take 5 mouths off the place we take 5 mature mouths off the place.

Food + Age = Better Deer Herd

[txwhitetail]

Food + Age = Better Deer Herd

Does it really? If you shoot junk bucks at 3 and 4 instead of 5 or 6 you will have a better average set of 5 and 6 year olds.

[Aggie PhD]

As a card carrying geneticist, I love me a discussion about population genetics, "culling" and it's affect on altering the genetics...... If you think you are changing genetic frequencies in a low fence, you need to read some about "genetic drift"

There are quite a few here that are spot on

[HighwayHunter]

As a card carrying geneticist, I love me a discussion about population genetics, "culling" and it's affect on altering the genetics...... If you think you are changing genetic frequencies in a low fence, you need to read some about "genetic drift"

There are quite a few here that are spot on

Do you agree with some of the sentient shared on this thread, that there is a need to remove all mouths eating corn and protein that aren’t up to par with the lease standards of “good “bucks?


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[Throwin Darts]

Does it really? If you shoot junk bucks at 3 and 4 instead of 5 or 6 you will have a better average set of 5 and 6 year olds.

I want to shoot 5 and 6 year old junk bucks because at 5 and 6 I can actually know if they are junk or not. If I need to take some mouths off and I have a mature junk buck out in front of me I can confirm with my eyes that he's near his full potential and not make a guess like I would be shooting them young.

[txwhitetail]

I want to shoot 5 and 6 year old junk bucks because at 5 and 6 I can actually know if they are junk or not.

Hey its your place you can do as you wish. Was just curious.

On our place some at 3 and for sure by 4 it is very evident what kind of deer they are going to be.

[Aggie PhD]

Do you agree with some of the sentient shared on this thread, that there is a need to remove all mouths eating corn and protein that aren’t up to par with the lease standards of “good “bucks?


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It comes down to carrying capacity of the land. Reducing the number of mouths will have reduce the pressure on the habitat. There are some confused that culling of bucks at 4 and under is making bigger bucks genetically and improving the herd. It is reducing the population of animals on the range, and the benefits of increased antler size is more likely due to more available resources for the remaining herd.

Also a lot of people don't shoot enough does and have an imbalance of bucks to does. An over abundance of does leads to a longer breeding season, which increases the likelihood of late fawns. Late fawns are behind on the nutritional plane and it takes them years to catch up. Also there is more nutritional stress put on the doe that has a late fawn, since the range conditions in the summer are usually worse than late spring. There is a lot of research in cattle on maternal affects related to the amount/quality of milk produced relative to the performance of their offspring.

Lastly, research has shown that a deer puts more nutrition into their antlers at 5+, since the majority of nutrition before that is put into body growth. If a buck is shot at 4, they don't survive to 5+

Granted there are a lot of variable in play here, but people often conflict the benefits they are seeing by shooting "culls" as genetic when in fact it is a pure nutrition and age play.

I have been on a lease for 14+ years. We had people that would shoot Every. Single. Spike.... and a "mature" trophy buck was 3.5. We never saw a 5.5 to 6.5 year old deer.
We put some basic rules, no spikes for two years, shoot more does, and we reduced the overall buck harvest. We still have little 1.5 year old spikes, and we shoot some "feeder bullies" as management deer at 5.5+. But in the last 4 years we are killing ( or seeing) 145-160" deer. I let a 4.5 year old deer that was 155 this year, and killed an old 8pt that was running some of the younger deer off (he was 6.5)

For us it is about making sure that bucks survive to 5.5 to reach some of their potential before removing their mouth.

My thoughts are worry about deer density, buck:doe ratio, and age structure of bucks (you need bucks of all age classes) first. Then IF you have that in line you can start shooting some older bucks

Just my opinions........

[Beargrasstx]

Spot on

[HighwayHunter]

It comes down to carrying capacity of the land. Reducing the number of mouths will have reduce the pressure on the habitat. There are some confused that culling of bucks at 4 and under is making bigger bucks genetically and improving the herd. It is reducing the population of animals on the range, and the benefits of increased antler size is more likely due to more available resources for the remaining herd.

Also a lot of people don't shoot enough does and have an imbalance of bucks to does. An over abundance of does leads to a longer breeding season, which increases the likelihood of late fawns. Late fawns are behind on the nutritional plane and it takes them years to catch up. Also there is more nutritional stress put on the doe that has a late fawn, since the range conditions in the summer are usually worse than late spring. There is a lot of research in cattle on maternal affects related to the amount/quality of milk produced relative to the performance of their offspring.

Lastly, research has shown that a deer puts more nutrition into their antlers at 5+, since the majority of nutrition before that is put into body growth. If a buck is shot at 4, they don't survive to 5+

Granted there are a lot of variable in play here, but people often conflict the benefits they are seeing by shooting "culls" as genetic when in fact it is a pure nutrition and age play.

I have been on a lease for 14+ years. We had people that would shoot Every. Single. Spike.... and a "mature" trophy buck was 3.5. We never saw a 5.5 to 6.5 year old deer.
We put some basic rules, no spikes for two years, shoot more does, and we reduced the overall buck harvest. We still have little 1.5 year old spikes, and we shoot some "feeder bullies" as management deer at 5.5+. But in the last 4 years we are killing ( or seeing) 145-160" deer. I let a 4.5 year old deer that was 155 this year, and killed an old 8pt that was running some of the younger deer off (he was 6.5)

For us it is about making sure that bucks survive to 5.5 to reach some of their potential before removing their mouth.

My thoughts are worry about deer density, buck:doe ratio, and age structure of bucks (you need bucks of all age classes) first. Then IF you have that in line you can start shooting some older bucks

Just my opinions........

Well said my friend!


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