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Teeth Aging Texas Hill Country Deer

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    #91
    Originally posted by Top Of Texas View Post
    OK, umm...y'all raise your heads out of the bunker for just a second, look around, and think about it. Stop focusing on the years. OK? Think about how the data is all tied together. Body conformation, hunter selection based on body conformation, antler size, and tooth wear. They're all tied together and tooth wear is what gives them all meaning. So much meaning that the data is predictable. We should all be able to agree that a buck will peak in antler growth when its tooth wear meets categories 6 and 7. Or that a buck will not have peaked if tooth wear showed categories 3 and 4. Thus we can use the data to predict outcomes. Stop focusing on the years.

    Stop focusing on the years? This whole thing is about years in relation to teeth! You keep rambling off into other irrelevant areas. Teeth are proven unreliable in determining age, over and over. They could be relevant in determining what years will be a bucks “prime” but that’s immaterial if you can’t get him to a dentist once a year.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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      #92
      Lol dale beat me to it

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        #93
        Top of Texas just blew my mind. Lol

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          #94
          ToT, I do not think this is a convo about peak years of antler growth as it relates to body makeup and tooth wear. Of course a deers teeth prolly tracks consistently with body makeup and antler growth. The correlation between those 3 seems...obvious. No one appears to be arguing with you about that. But all 3 of those things, combined, still doesn’t determine a deers age, right? A deer could exhibit those characteristics at any given age (as is evident by Chances pics).

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            #95
            Originally posted by Top Of Texas View Post
            We should all be able to agree that a buck will peak in antler growth when its tooth wear meets categories 6 and 7. Or that a buck will not have peaked if tooth wear showed categories 3 and 4.
            *takes years out of it, and plays along with your categories idea*

            But what we don’t know is the number of years it takes for a buck to exhibit tooth wear that meets categories 6 and 7. The categories are correlated to prime antler growth years, maybe, but they aren’t indicative of a specific age.

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              #96
              TOT, everyone I know that has meticulously saved history on many bucks has learned that tooth wear is all over the place on older deer. Most are also learning deer can live much older than we were taught and that best antlers often come at 8, 9 ,or 10. Your charts dont represent that because you wont recognize that most of the deer you call 6 and 7 are actually considerably older.

              I always read your opinions and appreciate the scientific approach. That said, you admit if you saw exactly what we are telling you with your own eyes, you would refuse to reconsider your stance and dismiss it. Thats not science. Thats being bull headed.

              I respectfully request that you consider what people with actual first hand experience are telling you. Dozens of us have arrived at exactly the same conclusions independed of each other.

              Please consider that the very premise your charts were built on is flawed. I dont want to be argumentative thus my lack of reply to your posts so far. I love good discussion though. We can all learn. The danger is getting to a point that we know everything and start dismissing the obvious.

              Steve Barclay
              Last edited by GarGuy; 01-14-2021, 07:48 AM.

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                #97
                .

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                  #98
                  Originally posted by GarGuy View Post
                  TOT, everyone I know that has meticulously saved history on many bucks has learned that tooth wear is all over the place on older deer. Most are also learning deer can live much older than we were taught and that best antlers often come at 8, 9 ,or 10. Your charts dont represent that because you wont recognize that most of the deer you call 6 and 7 are actually considerably older.

                  I always read your opinions and appreciate the scientific approach. That said, you admit if you saw exactly what we are telling you with your own eyes, you would refuse to reconsider your stance and dismiss it. Thats not science. Thats being bull headed.

                  I respectfully request that you consider what people with actual first hand experience are telling you. Dozens of us have arrived at exactly the same conclusions independed of each other.

                  Please consider that the very premise your charts were built on is flawed. I dont want to be argumentative thus my lack of reply to your posts so far. I love good discussion though. We can all learn. The danger is getting to a point that we know everything and start dismissing the obvious.

                  Steve Barclay
                  I agree with this 100%, growing up I was always told deer horn growth generally peeks at age 5-6. But hunting on a ranch that lets trophy’s get to 8 before they go on the hit list has really opened my eyes to the falsehoods of what I was taught. And the teeth absolutely are all over the map on known age of deer. The lease boss told me this before I even stepped foot on this lease I was still very skeptical as you are. Now seeing it with my own eyes and 15 years of history on this particular lease brings my conclusion to the same, teeth are just not accurate. I’m sorry but science is wrong at times.

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                    #99
                    Sorry the last post was for top of Texas

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                      Is the consensus that tooth wear has nothing to do with a deer’s peak antler size, or when they start going downhill?

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                        Originally posted by kyle1974 View Post
                        Is the consensus that tooth wear has nothing to do with a deer’s peak antler size, or when they start going downhill?
                        Nope. We all agree to some extent.

                        Comment


                          Lotta stuff to go over so I'll split it up:

                          Originally posted by Top Of Texas View Post
                          OK, umm...y'all raise your heads out of the bunker for just a second, look around, and think about it. Stop focusing on the years. OK? Think about how the data is all tied together. Body conformation, hunter selection based on body conformation, antler size, and tooth wear. They're all tied together and tooth wear is what gives them all meaning. So much meaning that the data is predictable. We should all be able to agree that a buck will peak in antler growth when its tooth wear meets categories 6 and 7. Or that a buck will not have peaked if tooth wear showed categories 3 and 4. Thus we can use the data to predict outcomes. Stop focusing on the years.
                          Well I raised my head out of the bunker about 20 years ago. Whether you want to call it "categories" or "years" doesn't matter. Tooth wear per the charts simply does not correlate to maximum antler growth. Any given deer can/will peak at different times. I've seen 4 year olds peak, and I've seen 10+ year olds peak. I've seen bucks that look 4 when we start watching them, and they still look 4 even 5 or 6 years later when we killed them. Not all deer exhibit the "normal" traits of conformation. And it happens a lot.


                          Originally posted by Top Of Texas View Post
                          There have been several statements in this thread claiming that tooth wear occurs at different rates for different deer. In general, and on average, that is inaccurate when looking at a complete data set. If tooth wear occurred at different rates, and that was the norm, then those charts wouldn't have a gradual increase that peaks at categories 6 and 7. Instead, they would look like either a straight line or have peaks and valleys at categories 3-4 or 7-8 or they would be "all over the place". That's the type of chart we see when analyzing random data sets where the variables have no correlation. That is, they would be unpredictable. Clearly, that's not true for tooth wear as it relates to body conformation and antler size because, as I've already pointed out, it's predictable.
                          Your data can be perceived as being predictable, but it is based on flawed data. If your data in the charts is flawed (and it is), then all these data sets you reference are flawed. Deer can and do peak at varying ages. You never can predict when that will be. For the most part we have found that the older we let them get, the bigger they get. And if the charts are so predictable, why do deer fluctuate a lot in quality between the ages of 5-10?

                          Originally posted by Top Of Texas View Post
                          As related to deer history. I have had an untold number of bucks over the years where I felt very confident I had followed their development with trail camera photos or sightings. As someone stated earlier - antler shape, unique marks, or whatever (sometimes very creative), are used as cues in an attempt to keep track of the same buck during its life. I get it. I've done it. However, if I took notice of a buck at middle age (a starting point based solely on body conformation), followed that buck all the way through and beyond maturity (based on history), and finally killed it at what I believed to be 10 years of age (based on history), but it's tooth wear showed category 4 or 5, then I would naturally assume that I must've got my bucks mixed up. Because that would be an extreme, off the page outlier. So much so, that I would have to come to the deductive reasoning conclusion that I just got some bucks mixed up. If it happened on a regular basis, it would seriously draw into question my subjective ability to properly identify the same buck in consecutive years. It would not draw into question my ability to apply the objective technique of tooth wear.
                          You are assuming you got the bucks mixed up, because you are assuming the charts are correct. As far as questioning your "ability to properly identify the same buck in consecutive years"...I don't know what your ability is. Some guys can do it fairly easily (I'm lucky enough to be one of them), and some just can't. Heck, a lot of guys can look at a picture, then go immediately to the stand, see that same buck and not even be able to identify him.

                          Originally posted by GarGuy View Post
                          TOT, everyone I know that has meticulously saved history on many bucks has learned that tooth wear is all over the place on older deer. Most are also learning deer can live much older than we were taught and that best antlers often come at 8, 9 ,or 10. Your charts dont represent that because you wont recognize that most of the deer you call 6 and 7 are actually considerably older.

                          I always read your opinions and appreciate the scientific approach. That said, you admit if you saw exactly what we are telling you with your own eyes, you would refuse to reconsider your stance and dismiss it. Thats not science. Thats being bull headed.

                          I respectfully request that you consider what people with actual first hand experience are telling you. Dozens of us have arrived at exactly the same conclusions independed of each other.

                          Please consider that the very premise your charts were built on is flawed. I dont want to be argumentative thus my lack of reply to your posts so far. I love good discussion though. We can all learn. The danger is getting to a point that we know everything and start dismissing the obvious.

                          Steve Barclay
                          Dang. Very well said, Steve.


                          Originally posted by kyle1974 View Post
                          Is the consensus that tooth wear has nothing to do with a deer’s peak antler size, or when they start going downhill?
                          I think people are better off removing "downhill" from their vocabulary. In most lease situations I'd bet that most bucks never get old enough to go downhill. We see very few that do, and they are pretty freakin old. As far as tooth wear goes, throw it out the window as well.


                          For the record, I didn't start this thread to get into an argument. Just wanted to make people think a little.
                          Last edited by Chance Love; 01-14-2021, 10:26 AM.

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                            I gave seen several go down hill at 6,7,and 8 only to bounce back at 9 or 10 with best rack ever. Many factors other than than teeth involved.

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                              I feel like we're having a discussion. Totally. Chance, if you'd prefer for me to step out of your thread, just say so.

                              I acknowledge that tooth wear is imprecise. I also acknowledge that extreme degrees of imprecision (i.e. a 10 yr old deer with 4 yr old teeth) are exceptionally, extraordinarily, rare. I acknowledge that photographic history with a buck can build confidence in determining harvest time (shed horns in consecutive years are my favorite!).

                              I continue to strike the deceased equine because I continue to see comments about tooth wear being "useless," "worthless," "meaningless," etc. To me, that reveals that I have failed in communicating the concept that tooth wear, while imprecise, has application and importance in deer management. Thus, my continued attempts at different descriptions of the same issue. I really thought the charts would do it, because, don't you see that if it were really "all over the place" then eventually, with a thousand dead deer, the chart would be a flat line from about 3 yrs old to 8 yrs old. See? If what your saying is the norm, then that's what the charts would look like. Think about it like this - if you rolled dice a thousand times and charted the results what would that chart look like?

                              How about this? If all the bucks you shoot have body conformation like the attached photo (which I merely pulled off the internet), you should consistently kill good deer. No looking in his mouth prior to shooting. No history required. That deer should be, depending on other environmental and behavioral variables, at or near its peak in antler development. Agreed?!
                              Attached Files

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                                This is the study that has me questioning TRW for aging deer. 20-30% accuracy where it matters most.

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