Electrical question

[Terran28]

Then you haven’t done much residential work.
So, you’re ok with someone using a bare ground as a neutral?

Actually I have seen it once and only once. In the house I live in as a matter of fact. The kitchen AC was 240 volt, when it was changed out before I moved in and converted to 120 volt, they used the black wire for hot, the bare ground for neutral and capped the white. I removed the cover plate to see what it would take to put in a duplex plug and discovered that. Haven't touched it since...

[Rubi513]

A bare ground used as a neutral is more dangerous that a white wire not labeled as a hot.

[Bowlife]

Guys, I understand my first comment to the OP was wrong in the eyes of electricians, but just stating I have never seen that (and until i just researched, thought it was wrong). I was taught differently by my dad. You be courteous to the "other guy" and use properly color coded wires to distinguish the circuit. If you HAVE to use different colored wires, you wrap tape around the ends of the wire to let them know it is a load bearing wire (black or red tape).

I have heard of technicians walking away from jobs because of this. They didn't want to become the liability because someone assumed that the white wire was a neutral.

The electricity flowing through the copper does not care what color the insulation is. It is absolutely normal for someone to run a 12/2 romex for a 240v circuit that does not require a neutral. It is also common to use the white as a switch leg or hot (depending on your personal preference) when wiring up lights and switches. It is common curtesy to label or mark the wires, but any electrician will tell you to never trust the color of a conductor. That’s why you test it with a meter.

[texasforever]

Bowlife has the right idea here. Y’all’s answers of liability for using a black and white wire to run a 240v circuit are ridiculous. 94% of commercial work uses the whole rainbow for conductors, just gotta check it with a meter. If you’re worried about someone thinking it’s a neutral because the wire is white just refer back to the Natural Selection page in the Book Of Life


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[kmitchl]

When i built my house i had this conversation with my electrician. We bet a lunch on it. In a circuit that consists of only 240 volt loads it is legal to run two phase conductors and ground. In a circuit with both 240 and 120 volt loads you must run a neutral conductor. I bought lunch.

[panhandlehunter]

Bowlife has the right idea here. Y’all’s answers of liability for using a black and white wire to run a 240v circuit are ridiculous. 94% of commercial work uses the whole rainbow for conductors, just gotta check it with a meter. If you’re worried about someone thinking it’s a neutral because the wire is white just refer back to the Natural Selection page in the Book Of Life


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Big difference between commercial, industrial and residential.

[texasforever]

Big difference between commercial, industrial and residential.

NEC applies the same in all applications


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[Arrow-Tek]

No, I am not. I have worked with my dad in HVAC for 30 years. Never have I EVER seen a 240 volt circuit use white/black/bare. I did research it and found no codes that state you cannot, however this is asinine and should have codes for it. If I see white/black, that is a 120 volt circuit. I will use my voltmeter to determine voltage, but If I see 240v running through black/white, I will walk away from it and tell them to get someone else or have an electrician rewire it with the proper 12/3 or 10/3 depending on load.

Surely you’ve heard of phase tape? If your so scared of the white wire than put a little red tape on it.

[Mike D]

NEC applies the same in all applications


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Speaking of code, the code only specifically mentions 5 “colors” and how they should be used:

Orange B phase of a 240 V Delta system indicating a “high leg” where it measures 240V to ground. White or grey to indicate a grounded conductor (neutral) and green or bare to indicate a grounding conductor.

It does allow provisions for marking the wires regardless of color such as with phase tape.

Even most modern residential wiring no longer uses the white as a switch leg which was a poor practice to begin with.


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[texasforever]

Speaking of code, the code only specifically mentions 5 “colors” and how they should be used:

Orange B phase of a 240 V Delta system indicating a “high leg” where it measures 240V to ground. White or grey to indicate a grounded conductor (neutral) and green or bare to indicate a grounding conductor.

It does allow provisions for marking the wires regardless of color such as with phase tape.

Even most modern residential wiring no longer uses the white as a switch leg which was a poor practice to begin with.


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I agree, white as a switch leg is a horrible idea. On the other side of that running 10/3 or 8/3 for an A/C application is just a plain waste of money. Not a single unit out there that needs to utilize a neutral as all are straight 240 not 240/120. Only thing I could see that being useful is if the install tech wanted a 120v GFCI mounted inside the unit for servicing the unit. Most of the time what I run into is dual black conductors and a green, if three phase you might get lucky and have marking tape for the different phases providing it’s not a delta system like mentioned. In the OP’s application I personally don’t see a need to distinguish between the different legs or have a neutral, systems gonna run the same if it’s black on black or black on white.


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[panhandlehunter]

NEC applies the same in all applications


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Yes, but still a big difference between a house and a chemical plant, which was my point.

[silencer2011]

First of all, assuming that color of a wire is an indication of voltage is bad practice in all cases. Most people are correct that you don't typically see a 2 wire romex in a 240v, single phase application. On the other side of that, most residential 240v, 1 phase loads use some sort of small 120v load for a timer or a clock or something, and they need the neutral. This necessitates the 3/c - w/gnd. I have dealt with every color of the rainbow, and colors with tracer stripes. If it concerns you to phase tape the white and use it as a current carrying conductor, then pull a 3/c romex. In the end, its your place and you want to be happy and comfortable with it.

[WTucker]

Gotta love electrical threads where non-electricians jump in to give wrong advice. It’s always good to make sure you are talking with a licensed journeyman/master electrician when looking for advice.

[Rubi513]

Gotta love electrical threads where non-electricians jump in to give wrong advice. It’s always good to make sure you are talking with a licensed journeyman/master electrician when looking for advice.

[silencer2011]

Gotta love electrical threads where non-electricians jump in to give wrong advice. It’s always good to make sure you are talking with a licensed journeyman/master electrician when looking for advice.

Agreed. I got my daily entertainment out of it though.