Aging deer by the lower jaw.

[Top Of Texas]

From there charts were presented

If the charts are totally meaningless, then why do they follow a trend that we know to be true? That trend being - deer get bigger as they get older. Bucks and does. Those charts are from multiple, independent sources that have all been trained in tooth aging. They serve as evidence that tooth wear has merit in management. It doesn't mean it has to nail every deer's age perfectly. Knowing that, doesn't negate its value. The charts clearly demonstrate that teeth wear down as the deer get older.

If tooth aging is totally bogus, then those charts would not follow that trend, but instead they would be random across all the ages.

Would you please specifically address how its possible that those multiple, independent charts follow that trend if tooth wear aging is universally flawed.

Also, just because I focused on the charts, please don't think I ignored the rest of your post. Very well thought out and presented without the personal jabs. I tip of my hat to you.

[elgato]

If the charts are totally meaningless, then why do they follow a trend that we know to be true? That trend being - deer get bigger as they get older. Bucks and does. Those charts are from multiple, independent sources that have all been trained in tooth aging. They serve as evidence that tooth wear has merit in management. It doesn't mean it has to nail every deer's age perfectly. Knowing that, doesn't negate its value. The charts clearly demonstrate that teeth wear down as the deer get older.

If tooth aging is totally bogus, then those charts would not follow that trend, but instead they would be random across all the ages.

Would you please specifically address how its possible that those multiple, independent charts follow that trend if tooth wear aging is universally flawed.

Also, just because I focused on the charts, please don't think I ignored the rest of your post. Very well thought out and presented without the personal jabs. I tip of my hat to you.

Before I respond I like B.T.Lowry's suggestion in post 22 requesting credentials for any opinions. I have no credentials validating any opinion I have.I'm certainly not a trained scientist or biologist! Like many I just have some OJT so accept my input as such.

I think we agree deer generally get bigger as they age ...with qualifications. However there are countless variables that can effect all the parameters in all the graphs above...weather and climate conditions, time of year, sickness, post rut condition, annual nutritional plane, stress, location......

Regarding age [ and perhaps this is where we never agree ] numerous studies as well as my on experience show accuracy high at 1&2, ok at 3, then becoming highly inaccurate from 4 on with variations becoming so high as to be worthless after about 5. Like many I saved and reviewed countless jaws on bucks that had been followed for years via video. Having harvested many 6 -13 yr old bucks and seeing jaws reflecting many yrs younger I fail to see value.

So, regarding the graphs what I see is both the vertical and horizontal axes flawed. Ages range tidily thru 7 yet the variation at 4 could be off a year or two with at 7 could be off numerous years. Every one of the vertical axis inputs requires more data to be useful. So on net all that is shown is a very macro crude graph showing tendencies that everyone knows happen generally with age. Looks like the kind of graph state agencies need to produce to justify their salary. Age data is flawed, vertical axis data is flawed. Essentially no value to the private mgr. in my opinion.

Now lets revisit your scenario #!.
The old lease mgr/biologist has retired to spend time with his grandson. The new lease mgr/biologist takes over and hears the same complaint. Dissatisfaction with 130-135" bucks with jaws reflecting 3-5. Understanding the weakness of the genesis of how aging by jaws came in the first place along with all the more current research into the methodology the understanding that jaws reflecting 4 or 5 yr olds could be off 1,2, maybe even 3 yrs +.thus the real range of ages is from 3 to perhaps as old as 8 or more. He understands that the bucks harvested may be expressing their genetic capabilities within the constraints of the nutritional plane.

He decides to dig deeper. Being familiar with Dr. Jacobsons work with camera census he does a thorough evaluation of the herd. As you know this technique of census has proven to be the most accurate census tool available . This tells him with great accuracy how many bucks he has with the opportunity to guess age based on body characteristic, buck/doe ratio, overall population,& post winter fawn survival.

Next he does a browse survey looking at all the various things eaten by deer to determine pressure or availability of tier 1 plants and how far down the food chain browsing pressure goes.

All historical data is reviewed; beam length, weights, gross score, best guess age data etc. Assuming few 1&2 yr olds are harvested then trends in all that data have value in the big macro picture.{ though a data set of only 5 bucks year doesn't necessarily provide a big enough sample for much value}

Now lets make some hypothetical assumptions:Population is found to be 1 deer per 2 acres in a pinewoods east Tx. forest . All tier one foods are gone and the deer are resorting to lessor preferred less nutritious sources proving only maintenance support . B/D ratio is ok but fawn survival is very low compromising recruitment.


All this information paints a much clearer picture that the nutritional plane is compromised thus compromising not only buck antler size but fawn recruitment as well . The choices to correct the problem become much clearer as well

With this information what decision should made? If from your scenario we decided that jaw aging showed bucks being harvested too young then the decision made to let them age would have accomplished nothing. What value would the graphs presented offer in making decisions here? For almost every conclusion the graphs would offer variables could be imposed to compromise the specific value.

I've droned on long enough

[Top Of Texas]

Elgato, I just can't overstate how refreshing and encouraging it is to read such a well thought out and presented view point. The actions of the new lease boss are all excellent approaches to gathering more pieces of the puzzle. The sample size is a total of 25 bucks.

What does OJT mean?

Look, I know this horse is just a pile of bloody goo at this point. But the charts are not influenced by any of the environmental factors you listed. Those are large sample sizes over a multitude of years from multiple areas. They represent dry years, wet years, sandy soils, clay soils, ranches that feed and ranches that don't, etc. You can see the same trend in ranches all across TX. The reason we see that trend is because tooth aging is accurate enough, not perfect by any means, but it's accurate enough to be used for identifying management needs. If it was really a crap-shoot we wouldn't see that trend but instead it would be a bunch of random lines all over the chart.

I've looked at a lot of dead deer and their teeth. By far, probably up in the 90 percentile, most tooth ages have matched my impressions of the deer's carcass. Very seldom will a buck's teeth be a clear contradiction to his body appearance. But when recording data, I always go with the teeth because the teeth are less subjective.

I killed a big bodied, thick necked buck in Nebraska a few years ago. The biggest bodied buck I've ever killed. Even the locals made comment on its size and proportions. My teenage son at the time commented on the size of the hindquarter on our kitchen counter. The buck's teeth showed he was a 2 year old. So, yeah, those extreme cases do occur, but they are not the norm and they do not negate the value of tooth age data.

The problem is that people have tried to take the tooth age and apply it outside its functional limits. That's why Scenario 1 involved 25 bucks over 5 years, not just 1 or 2 bucks in 1 year.

[GarGuy]

Some great discussion here. Thanks to TOT and Elgato for the great input as well as others. It is a proven fact that deer teeth wear as they age. The graphs show that. the kicker is that there is great variation in how fast that wear occurs based on many factors. I have looked at the jaws of a bunch of known age wild deer in East Tx over the past few years ranging from 6-10 years old. ALL had teeth that represented deer several years younger.

Back to the deer in the original post. He was a nice middle aged deer. No one here knows how old that deer is and if someone tells you with great confidence that he is a certain age from those teeth, they are likely in the same shape I was in ten years ago... mistaken.

[GarGuy]

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Just for the record. No teeth as the deer is still alive, but I know his age. Give it a shot.

I know he is mature. He is still pretty thick for the time off year with brahma bull shoulders. Ill guess him 7 but I maintain no one including myself knows without history. One pic from one angle is sketchy too.

[lovemylegacy]

I know he is mature. He is still pretty thick for the time off year with brahma bull shoulders. Ill guess him 7 but I maintain no one including myself knows without history. One pic from one angle is sketchy too.

Man you are good, he is 6. If you notice he isnt broke up, beat up, few if any scars. What does that tell you?

Yessir, we give them lots of food.

I can give a couple more angles, but you will come up with the same judgement.

[GarGuy]

Man you are good, he is 6. If you notice he isnt broke up, beat up, few if any scars. What does that tell you?

Yessir, we give them lots of food.

I can give a couple more angles, but you will come up with the same judgement.

Well, I would ne more comfortable guessing his age from that one pic than i would from his jaw bone.

[lovemylegacy]

Same deer

[Chance Love]

I see I'm a little late to the party, but I'll play. Years ago I took teeth aging as gospel. Until we killed a KNOWN 6 year old and his teeth showed 3. My faith in aging by teeth rapidly dimished after this. And not just because of this one incident. I've seen it MANY times. Oh, it's accurate for aging up until age 3, but that's it. We all know what teeth are supposed to look like for a given age, because we all learned from basically the same sources over the years. But that will only tell you what the teeth show "by the book". Nothing beats history and field experience.

I flipped through the graphs in this thread and while interesting enough, they are flawed. They show you what age the teeth are supposed to show, again...by the "book". They do not (and can't) show the ACTUAL age of those deer. I firmly believe each deer is different and as a result its teeth may wear differently than its cohorts. The ONLY reliable indication to be gathered from teeth is that the deer is young (up to 3), or is not young. Every single study I have ever seen using tooth wear for aging simply shows the same data over and over---here is what a 4 year old jaw looks like, here is what a 6 year old jaw looks like, ECT. But that is what the books tell us they are SUPPOSED to look like.

I gotta wonder in all those studies, how many of those that were determined 5,6,7 years old by the teeth were actually 9 or 10 years old...or even a 4 year old.

[GarGuy]

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Same deer

If that was the only pic i saw, I would have guessed him 5.

[Mexico]

If that was the only pic i saw, I would have guessed him 5.

Exactly why I hate ageing deer with 1 pic, there is no way to be accurate. Heck with 3 or 4 pics it's still dang near impossible. The only real way to be accurate is to "know" your herd as you already know amigo.


Unfortunately it takes years to know your herd intimately, so all we can do is give an educated guess. Obviously this is easy on very young, or very old deer. But those deer 4 to 7 it's a crap shoot at best, especially if they're on a supplemented diet.

[lovemylegacy]

If that was the only pic i saw, I would have guessed him 5.

He is 6, passed him 3 years ago.

[lovemylegacy]

Ok, here is one, got more than one pic.
When you are bowhunting, sometimes that is all you are granted is a single "pic", deer is there and gone in just a few seconds.

I also have a pic of a 6 that I want yall to look at but dang wildgame innovations pics wont let me download.

[lovemylegacy]

Ok, here is the Big6. Not sure of his age but he is mature. Cant see his teeth, but an educated guess is welcomed.

[Chance Love]

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Ok, here is the Big6. Not sure of his age but he is mature. Cant see his teeth, but an educated guess is welcomed.

From that one pic, I'd say 7+. Especially if the date is correct. But, he may have his hair all puffed up, can't really tell. You know that will add a year or two to his look. At any rate, he's too old to be a 6 point.