Extreme f.o.c or heavy arrow

[wdtorque]

I like Hexx arrows. My total arrow weight is 480 grains or so, happy with flight and penetration. My biggest issue is shooting game too high, but that ain't the bow or arrows fault.

[Duckologist]

I dodnt use a 11” vs 12” to compare length…. It’s a weight difference that IS MEASURABLE…..but difference in performance isn’t overwhelming

I know it's not a length thing. I know it's a weight difference and that is what I am talking about. MASS. I understand an 11" ball weighs nearly the same as a 12". I am saying a 550 grain arrow is quite a bit of a difference over a 350 grain arrow. I will agree that dead is dead with either arrow IF you can get the deer to never move and you can hit the heart 100% of the time. That just isn't real world though. Both of those arrows will leave the bow with the same speed, the lighter arrow will slow down faster, that's a fact. The heavier arrow will carry more momentum at the target vs the lighter arrow, that's also a fact. The arrow carrying more momentum will penetrate further than the arrow carrying less momentum, also fact. Physics. When the animal moves and my shot placement ends up not exactly where I intended, I want some momentum to carry my arrow through the animal.

[Duckologist]

Interesting Data

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCtp1SnPliY"]LONG RANGE HUNTING ARROWS - (Testing with RADAR!!) - YouTube[/ame]

[Beargrasstx]

The Hunting Public and Ranch Fairy

Don't forget this video that was done before that explains the physics from a rocket engineer and they actually test KE on several arrows and weights

Rockets, Missiles, Arrows and Bowhunting
https://youtu.be/fQUdywlHVEk

[enewman]

More FOC = more mass. If u take the same arrow with the same broadhead but put a 100 grain insert instead of a 25 grain insert you have more FOC and more mass. The more mass, the more penetration. Stand at 20 yards and choose the projectile you'd want to be hit with. A ping pong ball or a golf ball with a starting speed of 75mph. The lighter the projectile the quicker it slows down.

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Hahaha. Now that is funny. You are trying to prove that penetration is gained by FOC. By saying it’s the added mass. Hahaha. No crap. Hahaha. you can add mass at the tip or through out the arrow. You WILL GET SAME PENETRATION. Hahaha. Mass is mass.

By the way the reason a light arrow slows down faster is call inertia.

Ranch fairy just posted a test. Two arrows at 60 yards one was 472gr and the other was 707gr. At target the 707 gran was just over 7% difference. 7% is ot worth it. Same test was 472 vs just over 600gr. Less then 3% difference. Not worth it at all.

[enewman]

Speed where? Speed leaving the bow or speed at the target? Lighter projectiles slow down faster than heavier projectiles. Again, would you rather be hit by a ping pong ball or a golf ball that started out at 75mph and you were 20 yards away? Or how about this, you stand 20 yards away and let me throw either one at you as hard as I can. It's likely the ping pong ball won't even reach you but I'll nail you with the golf ball. Speed does not kill, momentum kills

You think momentum is it. Here is a physics lesson.

Two objects with equal momentum and unequal mass the object with the highest velocity will be harder to stop. That will be the lighter object.

Now here is a test for you, build you a 400gr arrow. Build a second arrow 200 plus gr more. Match the momentum at the target. Then see which one will out penetrates. You are fixing your learn physics.

[enewman]

I know it's not a length thing. I know it's a weight difference and that is what I am talking about. MASS. I understand an 11" ball weighs nearly the same as a 12". I am saying a 550 grain arrow is quite a bit of a difference over a 350 grain arrow. I will agree that dead is dead with either arrow IF you can get the deer to never move and you can hit the heart 100% of the time. That just isn't real world though. Both of those arrows will leave the bow with the same speed, the lighter arrow will slow down faster, that's a fact. The heavier arrow will carry more momentum at the target vs the lighter arrow, that's also a fact. The arrow carrying more momentum will penetrate further than the arrow carrying less momentum, also fact. Physics. When the animal moves and my shot placement ends up not exactly where I intended, I want some momentum to carry my arrow through the animal.

You want to talk physics. Then you should know that work energy theorem. If you do then you should no it’s not momentum that gives us the capacity to penetrate. KE is. Momentum is how hard to stop. It takes both but Ke is is that capacity. That is pure physics.

Again it’s a easy test. Build two arrows of unequal mass. Equal. Omengum at target. The one with the highest ke will out penetrates. That will be the lighter arrow. All other factors equal.

[DRT]

The arrow slows down more, but at the end, 267fps is still a whole lot faster than 226fps.

[IkemanTX]

You want to talk physics. Then you should know that work energy theorem. If you do then you should no it’s not momentum that gives us the capacity to penetrate. KE is. Momentum is how hard to stop. It takes both but Ke is is that capacity. That is pure physics.

Again it’s a easy test. Build two arrows of unequal mass. Equal. Omengum at target. The one with the highest ke will out penetrates. That will be the lighter arrow. All other factors equal.

I was in the middle of writing out a long response explaining why this is incorrect, but this 2016 post from another forum does a much better job.

QUOTE:
There is very little you can do about KE, because the bow determines over 90% of the end value. KE is the result of releasing the stored energy in the bow,

Potential Energy, or PE. The conversion of PE to KE by transferring the stored energy into the arrow has some losses; hysteresis is the frictional loss of the

cams tuning over the roller for the string, etc.; the vibration of the string that transfers into the riser is called a Virtual Mass (VM) energy loss and depends on

the efficiency of the PE transfer.

You can't do anything about the Hysteresis.

You can do some things to reduce the VM loss, mostly by using a heavier arrow with good nock fit. A heavier arrow provides a more efficient transfer of the PE

and results in a slight improvement of the KE that goes into the arrow. Think of it like throwing a ping-pong ball as hard as you can compared to throwing a

baseball as hard as you can and the difference in stress on the shoulder and elbow joints, the stress that is felt is the throwing force that didn't go into the

object thrown. The difference in KE between a 5 gr/lb arrow and a 10 gr/lb arrow is about 5% at most. Example: if a 350-gr arrow had a KE of 65 ft-lbs, then

700-gr arrow would have a KE of about 68.3 ft-lbs.

But, like the ping-pong vs baseball, you can throw the baseball farther than the ping-pong for several reasons. First the baseball initially is slower than the

ping-pong, so the aerodynamic drag is less. Secondly, the baseball has more mass (Momentum), so resists change and direction of its initial speed and

direction more so than the ping-pong, which slows rapidly due to the affect of drag and lack of Momentum, and tends to veer off course under outside forces

(wind, etc.) due to its lack of Momentum.

A heavy arrow will maintain more of its speed downrange than a light arrow, about 3% more. After much testing, I've found that about 90% of drag on an arrow is

due to the shaft (liner drag coefficient) and about 10% is due to the fletching (linear and rotational drag), and that about 4 fps speed loss every ten yards is a

good heuristic number for an arrow between 6.5 gr/lb ~8 gr/lb and about 5 fps for an arrow between 5 gr/lb ~6 gr/lb, at least out to about 60 yds.
Example: Assume a 70# bow rated at 345 fps IBO shoots a 350 grain arrow (5 gr/lb) at 300 fps, 69.9KE, and a 450-gr arrow (6.4 gr/lb) at 268 fps, or 71.7KE (this

accounts for about 3% gain due to the heavier weight, less VM loss).
Note: OnTarget2 yields inaccurate speed and KE calculation for very heavy arrows, so it can't be trusted with arrows much over 8 gr-lb. Larry Clague and I have

discussed this, the the fix is too complicated for most home computers. You can walk-back most of the OT2 error by using the Calibration Tab, shooting an

arrow ±30 grains of the actual arrow you'll be using through a chonograph, then using that data for the software to generate an accurate speed, hence an

accurate KE value.

Next, assume the arrow hits the Elk at 40 yds. At 5 fps loss over every ten yards the the 350-gr arrow will impact at 280 fps, at 4 fps loss over every ten yards,

the 450 grain arrow will impact at 252 fps.
The 350 gr arrow impacts with 60.9 KE
The 450 gr arrow impacts with 63.4 KE

On impact, here is where things change dramatically. Force x Distance=KE=Work. However, not all the KE transfers into useful Work, which is penetration distance.
- Some KE is lost due to Rebound Energy on Impact (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). The resistance to penetrate the hair, hide,

bones, tissue is reflected back into the arrow. This is a Force acting on the arrow in the exact opposite direction of penetration. We know that a lighter arrow is

faster under a force than a heavy arrow, so the rebound speed is greater for the lighter arrow, that is the lighter arrow loses a greater percentage of impact speed than

the heavy arrow due to impact forces. In fact I've done some testing with a 484 gr arrow as a base line and found that every 40 grains less in arrow weight

increases rebound energy by about 8% of the impact speed. There are other minor losses, such as shaft flex/vibration on impact, stopping arrow rotation as the BH

engages tissue or bone, but for practical purposes they can be ignored.
-- So if the 350 gr arrow impacts at 280 fps, the lost speed will be (484-350/40 x 8% = 26% loss of impact speed), resulting in 207 fps useful "penetration" speed, or 33.3

KE.
-- So if the 450 gr arrow impacts at 252 fps, the lost speed will be (484-450/40 x 8% = 8.5% loss of impact speed), resulting in 230 fps useful "penetration" speed, or 52.8

KE.

Note: If the loss of penetration speed for the 350-gr arrow seems excessive, it is not when comparing Momentum values to a 60# recurve shooting a 618-gr, 10

-gr/lb arrow at 156 fps, which is 33.4 KE, .428 Momentum. The 350 grain arrow has 33.3 KE, .441 Momentum, nearly the same values and same penetration

performance of a Trad hunting bow, which I had proven by taking a cow elk with a 60#@28" Bear Recurve, 25 yard, broadside, pass through.



The next factor in determining penetration potential is the broadhead performance. There is a lot of discussion about blade angles, blade sharpness,

etc., but the only major factor affecting the Work done is Total Cut. To better understand penetration potential and recommended minimum KE from the KE Lethality Tables you have to

understand how the tables were developed:
- The table was developed in the 1950s from data when most hunting shafts weighed 500+ grains, and much of the data was gathered with Trad Bows at ranges

under 30 yds. This brings into question whether the Table reflects the lethality of KE or Momentum, since the lethality could have been expressed in either

value.
- It only measures lethality, not pass through potential. When the tables were developed the popular notion was an arrow was more lethal if it remained inside

the vitals, so that the broadhead could 'work' as the animal ran. To achieve a 'pass through' lethality, the KE values probably need to be increased by 25% ~

33%.
- Average recovery distance, the time for the broadhead to 'work', for a Whitetail deer was 125 yds.
- Nearly all shafts were 5/16" or 11/32" o.d., hardly any of the data is derived from 'skinny' shafts. Skinny shafts can reduce the amount of KE required up to

10%.
- Nearly all the data is derived from fixed-blade broadheads of 1" to 1-1/8" cut diameter, 3-blade, like the DelMa MA-3, or the 4-blade like the Bear Razorhead

and Zwickey Eskimo. To determine the increase in KE needed to drive a 2" cut broadhead as deep as a 1" cut broadhead, use the ratio of Total Cut Volumes

(TCV). For example for 14" of penetration, considered a pass through on a Whitetail, a 2"cut, 2-blade has a TCV of 28", and a 1" cut, 3-blade has a TCV of 21",

so it takes about 28/21= 1.33 or 33% more KE to drive a 2" 2-blade 14" deep as it does to drive a 1" 3-blade 14" deep.


Using Elk as an example, 42 KE is the recommended minimum IMPACT VELOCITY KE for a 'lethal' shot, with 3 or 4 blade fixed blade with a Total Cut of 1.7"

(1.125"/2 x 3 = 1.7") and on average 16" of penetration into a 24" chest cavity (2/3rd of the chest cavity). If you want a pass through, which requires 8" more

penetration, using the same Total Cut broadhead, then the Impact KE increases to 63 ft-lbs minimum.

If you use a mech head that takes 2 KE to open, and has a 2 blade 2" cut, then you have to add 2KE to the 42KE minimum, for 44KE, then multiply by the

mech head 2" Total Cut divided by the 1.7" Total Cut in the KE Tables, for 51.7 KE to penetrate 16", then increase the Mimimum KE to get the additional 8" for

a pass through, making the Mech Hd min KE for pass through 77 KE. In other words, to get a good chance of a pass through at 40 yds with a Mech head, 450-grain ICS

arrow, a 28" DL archer would need a 70# bow that has an IBO rating of about 350 fps or faster.

If your setup doesn't meet the calculated minimum KE's above, then there are some things you can do about it. Dr. Ashby has done testing and found that a

skinny shaft can increase penetration by 10% or more, FOC over 18% can increase penetration up to 20% more. I compared a 484-gr standard ICS Easton 3-

71 ACC arrow with 14.5% FOC to a 484-gr Victory VAP .239" o.d. skinny shaft with 21% FOC, and got a consistent 22% increase in penetration in a new

block target. In other words, if a standard ICS arrow with 10%~12% FOC needs 63 ft-lbs KE for a pass through with a 1-1/8" 3-blade broadhead, then a skinny

shaft of the same weight, but with 20% FOC, only requires 49 KE for a pass through, which you could get using a bow with a lower IBO rating.

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/Ashby_Ultimate_Hunting_Arrows.pdf

These are all the details...FWIW, I put more value on the Momentum than on KE, but there is no Momentum Lethality Tables to refer to, so this complicated

conversion of KE to penetration potential has to be done...hope it helps.:icon_smile_thumbup:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enewman]

Here are the first four arrows in the fairy test. I added difference between arrow drop at 0 to 60. Then I showed difference between the light vs heavy at 60 yards.

[IkemanTX]

The overall answer is to shoot the heaviest, most FOC, arrow that works for your desired shooting distance / trajectory preferences, and put an insanely sharp cut on contact broadhead on the pointy end.

If you shoot 50-70 yards and don’t want to shoot rainbows, lighten up to the maximum weight that will meet your trajectory needs. If, like me, you won’t shoot past 30 yards regardless of FPS or trajectory…. Load the grain weight up like a freight train and enjoy a solid plan B setup.

For reference, my 710gr 25.4%FOC arrow passed through a mature buck from top to bottom this past season and still had enough energy to break the femur on exit. Entered between the shoulder and spine at the tip of the backstrap, exited just the other side of the sternum.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cbd10pt]

I killed 14 hogs and a buck this year with a 383 grain arrow 13% foc
Rage ss broadheads 55# bow 285 fps
The ones you hit right die
The ones you don't - not so much
Slow ars arrows tend to cause more bad hits.
Fast arrows with big fixed blades cause more bad hits.

I've been on over 300 blood trails , all kinds of heads/arrows/speeds etc.
Just make sure you hit them right

[enewman]

I was in the middle of writing out a long response explaining why this is incorrect, but this 2016 post from another forum does a much better job.

QUOTE:
There is very little you can do about KE, because the bow determines over 90% of the end value. KE is the result of releasing the stored energy in the bow,

Potential Energy, or PE. The conversion of PE to KE by transferring the stored energy into the arrow has some losses; hysteresis is the frictional loss of the

cams tuning over the roller for the string, etc.; the vibration of the string that transfers into the riser is called a Virtual Mass (VM) energy loss and depends on

the efficiency of the PE transfer.

You can't do anything about the Hysteresis.

You can do some things to reduce the VM loss, mostly by using a heavier arrow with good nock fit. A heavier arrow provides a more efficient transfer of the PE

and results in a slight improvement of the KE that goes into the arrow. Think of it like throwing a ping-pong ball as hard as you can compared to throwing a

baseball as hard as you can and the difference in stress on the shoulder and elbow joints, the stress that is felt is the throwing force that didn't go into the

object thrown. The difference in KE between a 5 gr/lb arrow and a 10 gr/lb arrow is about 5% at most. Example: if a 350-gr arrow had a KE of 65 ft-lbs, then

700-gr arrow would have a KE of about 68.3 ft-lbs.

But, like the ping-pong vs baseball, you can throw the baseball farther than the ping-pong for several reasons. First the baseball initially is slower than the

ping-pong, so the aerodynamic drag is less. Secondly, the baseball has more mass (Momentum), so resists change and direction of its initial speed and

direction more so than the ping-pong, which slows rapidly due to the affect of drag and lack of Momentum, and tends to veer off course under outside forces

(wind, etc.) due to its lack of Momentum.

A heavy arrow will maintain more of its speed downrange than a light arrow, about 3% more. After much testing, I've found that about 90% of drag on an arrow is

due to the shaft (liner drag coefficient) and about 10% is due to the fletching (linear and rotational drag), and that about 4 fps speed loss every ten yards is a

good heuristic number for an arrow between 6.5 gr/lb ~8 gr/lb and about 5 fps for an arrow between 5 gr/lb ~6 gr/lb, at least out to about 60 yds.
Example: Assume a 70# bow rated at 345 fps IBO shoots a 350 grain arrow (5 gr/lb) at 300 fps, 69.9KE, and a 450-gr arrow (6.4 gr/lb) at 268 fps, or 71.7KE (this

accounts for about 3% gain due to the heavier weight, less VM loss).
Note: OnTarget2 yields inaccurate speed and KE calculation for very heavy arrows, so it can't be trusted with arrows much over 8 gr-lb. Larry Clague and I have

discussed this, the the fix is too complicated for most home computers. You can walk-back most of the OT2 error by using the Calibration Tab, shooting an

arrow ±30 grains of the actual arrow you'll be using through a chonograph, then using that data for the software to generate an accurate speed, hence an

accurate KE value.

Next, assume the arrow hits the Elk at 40 yds. At 5 fps loss over every ten yards the the 350-gr arrow will impact at 280 fps, at 4 fps loss over every ten yards,

the 450 grain arrow will impact at 252 fps.
The 350 gr arrow impacts with 60.9 KE
The 450 gr arrow impacts with 63.4 KE

On impact, here is where things change dramatically. Force x Distance=KE=Work. However, not all the KE transfers into useful Work, which is penetration distance.
- Some KE is lost due to Rebound Energy on Impact (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). The resistance to penetrate the hair, hide,

bones, tissue is reflected back into the arrow. This is a Force acting on the arrow in the exact opposite direction of penetration. We know that a lighter arrow is

faster under a force than a heavy arrow, so the rebound speed is greater for the lighter arrow, that is the lighter arrow loses a greater percentage of impact speed than

the heavy arrow due to impact forces. In fact I've done some testing with a 484 gr arrow as a base line and found that every 40 grains less in arrow weight

increases rebound energy by about 8% of the impact speed. There are other minor losses, such as shaft flex/vibration on impact, stopping arrow rotation as the BH

engages tissue or bone, but for practical purposes they can be ignored.
-- So if the 350 gr arrow impacts at 280 fps, the lost speed will be (484-350/40 x 8% = 26% loss of impact speed), resulting in 207 fps useful "penetration" speed, or 33.3

KE.
-- So if the 450 gr arrow impacts at 252 fps, the lost speed will be (484-450/40 x 8% = 8.5% loss of impact speed), resulting in 230 fps useful "penetration" speed, or 52.8

KE.

Note: If the loss of penetration speed for the 350-gr arrow seems excessive, it is not when comparing Momentum values to a 60# recurve shooting a 618-gr, 10

-gr/lb arrow at 156 fps, which is 33.4 KE, .428 Momentum. The 350 grain arrow has 33.3 KE, .441 Momentum, nearly the same values and same penetration

performance of a Trad hunting bow, which I had proven by taking a cow elk with a 60#@28" Bear Recurve, 25 yard, broadside, pass through.



The next factor in determining penetration potential is the broadhead performance. There is a lot of discussion about blade angles, blade sharpness,

etc., but the only major factor affecting the Work done is Total Cut. To better understand penetration potential and recommended minimum KE from the KE Lethality Tables you have to

understand how the tables were developed:
- The table was developed in the 1950s from data when most hunting shafts weighed 500+ grains, and much of the data was gathered with Trad Bows at ranges

under 30 yds. This brings into question whether the Table reflects the lethality of KE or Momentum, since the lethality could have been expressed in either

value.
- It only measures lethality, not pass through potential. When the tables were developed the popular notion was an arrow was more lethal if it remained inside

the vitals, so that the broadhead could 'work' as the animal ran. To achieve a 'pass through' lethality, the KE values probably need to be increased by 25% ~

33%.
- Average recovery distance, the time for the broadhead to 'work', for a Whitetail deer was 125 yds.
- Nearly all shafts were 5/16" or 11/32" o.d., hardly any of the data is derived from 'skinny' shafts. Skinny shafts can reduce the amount of KE required up to

10%.
- Nearly all the data is derived from fixed-blade broadheads of 1" to 1-1/8" cut diameter, 3-blade, like the DelMa MA-3, or the 4-blade like the Bear Razorhead

and Zwickey Eskimo. To determine the increase in KE needed to drive a 2" cut broadhead as deep as a 1" cut broadhead, use the ratio of Total Cut Volumes

(TCV). For example for 14" of penetration, considered a pass through on a Whitetail, a 2"cut, 2-blade has a TCV of 28", and a 1" cut, 3-blade has a TCV of 21",

so it takes about 28/21= 1.33 or 33% more KE to drive a 2" 2-blade 14" deep as it does to drive a 1" 3-blade 14" deep.


Using Elk as an example, 42 KE is the recommended minimum IMPACT VELOCITY KE for a 'lethal' shot, with 3 or 4 blade fixed blade with a Total Cut of 1.7"

(1.125"/2 x 3 = 1.7") and on average 16" of penetration into a 24" chest cavity (2/3rd of the chest cavity). If you want a pass through, which requires 8" more

penetration, using the same Total Cut broadhead, then the Impact KE increases to 63 ft-lbs minimum.

If you use a mech head that takes 2 KE to open, and has a 2 blade 2" cut, then you have to add 2KE to the 42KE minimum, for 44KE, then multiply by the

mech head 2" Total Cut divided by the 1.7" Total Cut in the KE Tables, for 51.7 KE to penetrate 16", then increase the Mimimum KE to get the additional 8" for

a pass through, making the Mech Hd min KE for pass through 77 KE. In other words, to get a good chance of a pass through at 40 yds with a Mech head, 450-grain ICS

arrow, a 28" DL archer would need a 70# bow that has an IBO rating of about 350 fps or faster.

If your setup doesn't meet the calculated minimum KE's above, then there are some things you can do about it. Dr. Ashby has done testing and found that a

skinny shaft can increase penetration by 10% or more, FOC over 18% can increase penetration up to 20% more. I compared a 484-gr standard ICS Easton 3-

71 ACC arrow with 14.5% FOC to a 484-gr Victory VAP .239" o.d. skinny shaft with 21% FOC, and got a consistent 22% increase in penetration in a new

block target. In other words, if a standard ICS arrow with 10%~12% FOC needs 63 ft-lbs KE for a pass through with a 1-1/8" 3-blade broadhead, then a skinny

shaft of the same weight, but with 20% FOC, only requires 49 KE for a pass through, which you could get using a bow with a lower IBO rating.

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/Ashby_Ultimate_Hunting_Arrows.pdf

These are all the details...FWIW, I put more value on the Momentum than on KE, but there is no Momentum Lethality Tables to refer to, so this complicated

conversion of KE to penetration potential has to be done...hope it helps.:icon_smile_thumbup:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never said anything against this. Every person that shoots should know this. Hell I have papers written on this. Hahaha.

Im Talking physics. So match momentum at target and see what happens.

Do you know why there are no momentum tables? Because momentum is not what gives us the work to penetrate. Momentum is what tells us how hard it is to stop

[enewman]

IkemanTX

here is a few numbers for you.

Arrow 1 400gr. .520 momentum
Arrow 2 600gr. .520 momentum

Which arrow will out penetrate if all other factors are equal. Now this is a physics test. So, bone in not part of the equation.

The question and test will show you if this statement made by most is true or false. ( momentum built on mass will out penetrate momentum built on velocity)

The test will also give you the answer if it’s ke or momentum that gives us the capacity to penetrate.

[enewman]

The overall answer is to shoot the heaviest, most FOC, arrow that works for your desired shooting distance / trajectory preferences, and put an insanely sharp cut on contact broadhead on the pointy end.

If you shoot 50-70 yards and don’t want to shoot rainbows, lighten up to the maximum weight that will meet your trajectory needs. If, like me, you won’t shoot past 30 yards regardless of FPS or trajectory…. Load the grain weight up like a freight train and enjoy a solid plan B setup.

For reference, my 710gr 25.4%FOC arrow passed through a mature buck from top to bottom this past season and still had enough energy to break the femur on exit. Entered between the shoulder and spine at the tip of the backstrap, exited just the other side of the sternum.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Of course it did. Question is, would a 550 have done the same?