"Culling Doesn't Work in Wild Populations"

[Montec man]

Occasionally we'll let one of the oddballs go to see what he might grow into. He becomes almost like a pet or lease mascot. This six is such a deer

[kyle1974]

I think it sounds like a gamble. For instance, I had a 7 point last year that was a 4 yr old. Decent frame but no brow tine on his left side. Didn't shoot him mostly cause I didn't want to waste a management tag on him. I ended up shooting another 7 point with almost the exact same frame only he was 5.


I think our current majority gene pool leader are short tines and missing brows. Very common trait on our lease. Why are there so many deer with less than desirable racks at different age classes if the genetic trait was not passed down.

you're not alone on that one Muddy! we see the same thing. clearly a genetic trait when it's that wide spread. That short brow thing does seem to get better on the northern end of our place though.

[kyle1974]

Our HF pasture yes we do, and hard because it's a controlled environment that can be altered. Our LF pasture we kill nothing under 5 because I want to see the true potential of each animal before I make that decision . Heck we have a 5 yr old 4 point lmao! I just kept letting him roll but his time is up.

I"m making that change this year. We killed 4+ and less than 125" as "culls" last year, but there can sometimes be a little magic that happens at 5 for a deer... plus, who really gives a S about a 4 year old 118" anyway let em roll out there a bit more. If anything else, you're going to kill a studlier looking buck next year.


I'm also trying to come up with a system that will encourage people shooting the worst culls, rather than bumping the limiter on the management buck class. We saw several 6-7's last year that never got killed... I'd much rather people chase them than a 124 7/8" slick 8

[Mexico]

Occasionally we'll let one of the oddballs go to see what he might grow into. He becomes almost like a pet or lease mascot. This six is such a deer

Heck we got 2 mascots I guess

This 4 point has been a 4 since he was 2, now five. I couldn't make myself shoot hin last year, wonder how big he'll get. I'm sure he get shot this year, as I've pulled off his pardon.

We also got this crazy freak. Been this way for the last 4 years, ( I believe he's 9 or 10 ) I tried to sell him as a managment deer but nobody wants him. Guess he'll live out his old age on the ranch. He's not really hurting anything.



Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[elgato]

Seems culling is a perennial debate much like shooting spikes was years back or wether offense or defense gets you to the super bowl.As for us we focus intensely and primarily on nutrition and do everything we can to enhance the nutritional plane 365 days a year then let ALL the bucks fully mature before removing them. Cant count the times I've seen bucks make big jumps both up AND down from year to year.

I find it fascinating that many that subscribe to the notion that culling shifts genetics will not only remove the " inferior " deer but do everything they can to shoot the biggest deer on the pasture as well??? Counterintuitive?

[Mexico]

I"m making that change this year. We killed 4+ and less than 125" as "culls" last year, but there can sometimes be a little magic that happens at 5 for a deer... plus, who really gives a S about a 4 year old 118" anyway let em roll out there a bit more. If anything else, you're going to kill a studlier looking buck next year.


I'm also trying to come up with a system that will encourage people shooting the worst culls, rather than bumping the limiter on the management buck class. We saw several 6-7's last year that never got killed... I'd much rather people chase them than a 124 7/8" slick 8

The biggest jumps I've seen are 5 to 6 for us. I'm talking 40 inch jumps. Everywhere is different though.

Those guys drive me crazy who want to shoot a 160 trophy and 150 inch "cull".

[Capt.Brown]

We usually see are biggest jumps from 6-7

[lovemylegacy]

Just to be fair, does carry half the genetics in your herd. How do you cull them ?

Arbitrarily or body size

[Drycreek3189]

On one place I hunt, low fence, we have a doe with a tag in her ear that’s off limits. Great big old doe. Been watching her three years so I figure her to be 5/6 years old. I have seen her raise exactly one fawn in those three years. She has fawns, I see them on camera, but she can’t get them grown. Last year the only doe that I saw get her twins past summer was a 2 year old best I could tell. So much for old does being the best mothers. Now I know that this observation is anecdotal at best, (although the same scenario played out here at home), it does give me some food for thought. I think this management thing is extremely difficult on low fenced places with high predator populations.

[RJH1]

I saw a study once that there were 100 bucks collared. from 1-2 there was high mortality rate, from 3-4 very few died, past 5 basically none of the 100 were alive. These were natural mortality rates, not deer killed by hunters. What I took from it was if you think a deer is 5, you better shoot him cause the likelihood being around next year is very close to %0

[kyle1974]

I saw a study once that there were 100 bucks collared. from 1-2 there was high mortality rate, from 3-4 very few died, past 5 basically none of the 100 were alive. These were natural mortality rates, not deer killed by hunters. What I took from it was if you think a deer is 5, you better shoot him cause the likelihood being around next year is very close to %0

I've never seen that one, but I did see one from the king ranch that showed about 12% mortality year to year. There are an awful lot of 6-8 year old deer killed every year in south texas that would show a different result than the study you're referencing.

[Mexico]

I saw a study once that there were 100 bucks collared. from 1-2 there was high mortality rate, from 3-4 very few died, past 5 basically none of the 100 were alive. These were natural mortality rates, not deer killed by hunters. What I took from it was if you think a deer is 5, you better shoot him cause the likelihood being around next year is very close to %0

Please attach study, many many deer live to the ripe old age of 10. Especially those who live in no hunting areas such as neighborhoods and state parks. I find this very unrealistic.

[STGS]

I saw a study once that there were 100 bucks collared. from 1-2 there was high mortality rate, from 3-4 very few died, past 5 basically none of the 100 were alive. These were natural mortality rates, not deer killed by hunters. What I took from it was if you think a deer is 5, you better shoot him cause the likelihood being around next year is very close to %0

I am curious as to the location and conditions under which this study was performed. I have a highly managed HF ranch and we presently have many many bucks over the age of 5 with probably 20 in excess of 9 yrs old. In South Texas they can live to be very old. I have a tagged doe who is 14 and still making babies. She was released into the pasture 13+ years ago.

Nutrition, densities, ratios and predator control can allow for deer to get very old. Also, hunters keeping their booger pickers off the bang button can help too.

[elgato]

Think we can all agree top buck can be removed to manage population. Tried to get him last year when he looked much the same but I only saw him once without a gun.

Pic#2 is a 5 year old 8 pt. Remove him? Management buck? He's only an 8 pt and is by some consideration mature. Cull. Management buck.Trophy. No matter how you frame it if he is shot he is dead.

[elgato]

Here is what the 8 pt in previous post looked like as a 4 year old. Sometimes they go up. Sometimes they go down. But impossible to know till they are fully mature.Knowing this would you still consider shooting him as a 5 yr old 8 pt?

I think full maturity is almost always your friend for all bucks.Even the ones that may never be gigantic still look their best fully mature and if nutrition is optimized they can be plenty big to satisfy most hunters.

And I am convinced that if nutrition is optimized 365 days a year the overall bell curve of the bucks continually improves. That is very manageable. Genetics?...That requires an entirely different approach.