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    #46
    Originally posted by Duckologist View Post
    If you did some research you would indeed find the point of diminishing returns. No one is advocating crazy heavy 1,000 grain arrows. Just saying, especially to the original poster, that you will see better results with a 500-600 grain arrow vs a 300 grain arrow. No need in getting upset. I mean would it hurt to try something different to see what results you get? You're already set up so if you don't like the results of your experiment couldn't you easily go back?
    1,000 grain arrow was sarcasm. In the last 3 years, I have experimented,(on animals) 3 different arrow builds. My point is, if the op is not shooting through whitetails with a 480 grain arrow, there is another issue that needs to be addressed, then, if he still chooses to go heavy due to this heavy, high foc fad going on currently, that’s up to him.

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      #47
      Originally posted by enewman View Post
      although I'm 100% with you. you would be surprised how many people have no clue how to tune.
      Oh no sir, I would not be surprised at all

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        #48
        Originally posted by Felix40 View Post
        I think there is more to it than just arrow weight. Theres a lot of factors and I cant see any reason why you cant blow through deer with your current arrow weight. Get it tuned perfectly and shoot a better broadhead (montecs are not known for being sharp or durable). Its been a long time but when I was a kid I shot 60 pounds and a 400 something grain arrow and got passthroughs on everything. Not to mention now Im shooting a 480grain arrow out of a 60# recurve and getting passthroughs on elk and sheep which are way thicker than any whitetail.

        I think its really easy to get off in the weeds on calculating foc and getting a super heavy arrow when the basics (arrow flight, broadhead sharpness, and broadhead/arrow integrity) are what really need the focus.


        Bow was bare shaft paper tuned to clean hole punches with the 100gr head. It drives tacks as is. I can’t shoot the same dot 30yards and shorter without destroying nocks and fletchings. Tuning isn’t the issue.

        Montec’s aren’t sharp out of the box, but really nothing is. They were hand sharpened a week prior to killing my buck. They don’t hold edges all that well, but as far as durability they outclass their price range.

        I think my biggest energy loss is the 400 spine arrow flexes too much on impact.


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          #49
          Originally posted by Low Fence View Post
          ... so by physics standards: if I shoot a deer in the brisket head on and it doesn’t exit the balloon knot... it was the arrows fault?

          I’ll take the blame for every animal I’ve lost. 100% were due to shot placement. No 25-100000 gr would have made a difference.


          And IF we are talking; deer & hogs WITH modern compounds it’s all personal flavor. If you can’t kill em with that.... it ain’t the physics

          Perfect flight with the least amount of bandaids possible and an adequate SHARP broadhead will win

          Again. The truth is in the middle. But you do you and I won’t hate


          1) I have never lost a deer, thank goodness.

          2)shot placement is NEVER guaranteed. This isn’t target shooting, animals move.

          And I agree, different strokes for different folks. I used to run light and fast with mechanicals, then moved to mid weight with cut on contact, and now I’m going to a stiff, heavyweight setup with single bevel.


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            #50
            Time for adult arrows....

            Originally posted by rocky View Post
            My point is, if the op is not shooting through whitetails with a 480 grain arrow, there is another issue that needs to be addressed, then, if he still chooses to go heavy due to this heavy, high foc fad going on currently, that’s up to him.

            So Rock, I just have to ask...... how long does something have to be around to not be considered a “fad” as you describe it? Could it be people are delving into the science and/or physics of arrow lethality more than the previous generation of bowhunters? Could it be that the information is more widely available and accessible to folks today than it was 10 years ago? I think most of us that have been here a few years know your position on the subject and the general negative feedback you present in regards to more aggressive arrow setups, I know I am. I concede the fact that there are a variety of factors that impact lethality with modern archery equipment but to arbitrarily write off what science has proven to be fact is just downright silly. I often wonder what it would take to legitimize the concept for you but then I come back to reality and realize I don’t care.




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              #51
              Time for adult arrows....

              On a side note, the other hit list 8-point at this stand location didn’t make it through the season. Found his skull this morning scouting. Last I saw of him was first week of December, and for about 2-3 weeks he had been limping BAD with a busted shoulder. No noticeable punctures or cuts, so I’m figuring a car hit him.

              He was chasing does and moving pretty well, so I had high hopes he would make the year and recover. Just wasn’t in the cards.



              There’s still at least 4 other really good targets that I know made the season on this piece of public though, so all is not lost.


              I’ll try and put a tape on him this evening. I think he may also squeak into P&Y, which would be cool to have 2 P&Y 8-pointers at the same tree on public land.

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              Last edited by IkemanTX; 02-14-2020, 06:45 PM.

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                #52
                Cool find! I bet his brows keep him out, but outstanding buck reguardless!

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by muddyfuzzy View Post
                  So Rock, I just have to ask...... how long does something have to be around to not be considered a “fad” as you describe it? Could it be people are delving into the science and/or physics of arrow lethality more than the previous generation of bowhunters? Could it be that the information is more widely available and accessible to folks today than it was 10 years ago? I think most of us that have been here a few years know your position on the subject and the general negative feedback you present in regards to more aggressive arrow setups, I know I am. I concede the fact that there are a variety of factors that impact lethality with modern archery equipment but to arbitrarily write off what science has proven to be fact is just downright silly. I often wonder what it would take to legitimize the concept for you but then I come back to reality and realize I don’t care.




                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  I hate that you don’t care about anyone’s thoughts about killing potential with an arrow. Ashby did his studies using traditional equipment. Today’s compounds produce considerably more speed. Arrow speed throws a kink in Ashby’s studies. Hurricanes can drive a broom stick through an oak tree. All I’m saying is that a whitetail is not the animal to start building heavyweight arrows to kill.

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                    #54
                    Originally posted by Low Fence View Post
                    Cool find! I bet his brows keep him out, but outstanding buck reguardless!


                    I am definitely not an official scorer, but I think these measurements are pretty darn close....

                    So long as I didn’t completely screw the pooch,
                    He easily slid into P&Y






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                      #55
                      Originally posted by Low Fence View Post
                      Just a heads up:

                      @650g you will be hurling that log at around 215 FPS

                      You do you and have fun experimenting and learning. Like politics, the truth is in the middle. 400g and even lighter kill and pass through 1000000000 of animals. No amount of weight makes up for poor shooting or just bad luck.

                      If you hunt a known yardage “bait/feeder” your trajectory won’t be a big deal. But from experience I fear no deer or pig shoulder with box store broadheads light poundage and 28” draw (385gr arrow)... (testing 405 now, for flight purposes only)
                      Totally agree, I think most penetration problems are tuning issues more so then lack of weight. RF has some good points ( as do most people) but he shoots very close to his feeders also, well under 20 yards I hear. ( I personally can’t watch the guy). If your going to shoot various ranges and out to longer distance ( spot and stalk) trajectory can be an issue. I have hit limbs that I thought were way above my trajectory curve, using fairly heavy arrows. I had no problem with penetration on my light arrow set ups ( 350-375) , but switched because it’s the thing to do. I did miss a few animals I don’t think I would have with my lighter set ups. So now I have settled around 450-500 and it works great on everything I have shot, but so did my lighter set up and heavy setups ( 600-700) when I put the arrows where they are supposed to be put ( noise and less stress on the bows primarily reason) He was kicked off one of the sights I am on, I guess.Lol.
                      Last edited by critter69; 02-15-2020, 10:10 AM.

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by rocky View Post
                        I hate that you don’t care about anyone’s thoughts about killing potential with an arrow. Ashby did his studies using traditional equipment. Today’s compounds produce considerably more speed. Arrow speed throws a kink in Ashby’s studies. Hurricanes can drive a broom stick through an oak tree. All I’m saying is that a whitetail is not the animal to start building heavyweight arrows to kill.
                        But do the broomsticks get a full passthrough? That's the real question lmao

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by rocky View Post
                          Why not use an arrow that weighs 1,000 grains or more? Seems like there is no negatives to super heavy, extremely high foc arrows. ? Where is the point of diminishing return?
                          Watch bowhunter64 video on building an arrow for Cape buffalo. One is i believe 1500 gr. ( 70 lb bow) and it impacts the target 7-8 feet below his “ regular” arrow at 40 yards. And yea everybody says you can’t shoot to heavy, why are they not shooting these 1000- 1500 gr arrows. The majority are hunting from stands, so the distance is not to far and known. Shoot man why not shoot rebar arrows, you ain’t going to brake one, and the weight can only help.

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by IkemanTX View Post
                            I am definitely not an official scorer, but I think these measurements are pretty darn close....

                            So long as I didn’t completely screw the pooch,
                            He easily slid into P&Y






                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                            Oh wow. Those are a lot better pics. Great deer!!!!

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                              #59
                              Time for adult arrows....

                              Originally posted by critter69 View Post
                              Totally agree, I think most penetration problems are tuning issues more so then lack of weight. RF has some good points ( as do most people) but he shoots very close to his feeders also, well under 20 yards I hear. ( I personally can’t watch the guy). If your going to shoot various ranges and out to longer distance ( spot and stalk) trajectory can be an issue. I have hit limbs that I thought were way above my trajectory curve, using fairly heavy arrows. I had no problem with penetration on my light arrow set ups ( 350-375) , but switched because it’s the thing to do. I did miss a few animals I don’t think I would have with my lighter set ups. So now I have settled around 450-500 and it works great on everything I have shot, but so did my lighter set up and heavy setups ( 600-700) when I put the arrows where they are supposed to be put ( noise and less stress on the bows primarily reason) He was kicked off one of the sights I am on, I guess.Lol.


                              I haven’t shot past mid 20’s yardage wise in 6 years.
                              I hunt public land, in thick bedding locations. Most of my setups, I can’t even see past 35 yards. I’d love to shoot 45 yards at a deer from a field edge, but that’s not where I find them on most public ground. They’re in the thick crap where they feel safe.

                              My personal, self imposed max shooting distance is 35 yards. Getting into the upper 500’s to mid 600’s grain wise on a modern bow at 70lb draw weight won’t hurt my trajectory enough to not be easily manageable.

                              If I was a western hunter, this would definitely be a much more major factor to consider.

                              And going back to the shot placement thing... this ain’t target shooting. Our targets can, and sometimes will, move 6-10 inches before impact. So, I am building a rig to handle that if/when that occurs.
                              With me hunting shell shocked public bucks, I figure it will more times than not.

                              Another thing is, with all the smilax vines and saplings in the thick areas I hunt, the extra weight (especially FOC weight) will reduce the potential of deflections if my arrow clips a vine on the way in.

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by rocky View Post
                                I hate that you don’t care about anyone’s thoughts about killing potential with an arrow. Ashby did his studies using traditional equipment. Today’s compounds produce considerably more speed. Arrow speed throws a kink in Ashby’s studies. Hurricanes can drive a broom stick through an oak tree. All I’m saying is that a whitetail is not the animal to start building heavyweight arrows to kill.

                                Please don’t misrepresent my position. A quick search will produced COUNTLESS posts in which I advocate shooting arrows in the 475-500 grain range for NA species not just deer. I post specs on all my builds and it’s not coincidental that most fall into that range of total weight. I have some on the bench right now that are 480 so I don’t really know what you are talking about. I have no issue with guys shooting what they want, I just have issue with condescending remarks that are just a way of throwing shade on good work people are doing.


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