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    Originally posted by ghostgoblin22 View Post
    So 18 is the main underlying number that makes a golfer the greatest of all time?

    Let’s talk numbers then, first off lets just say if Tiger never broke his back or only had half of the 100+ procedures done to his body, he would’ve had easily 12-16 more major starts

    He’s winning 1-4 of those, plus he would’ve had 100 plus tour victory’s

    Second his cut streak will never be beaten, 142 cuts made is 30 better than 2nd place; this streak is one of the most underrated stat of his career

    His winning percentage is 9% better than jacks

    He had 3 separate hall of fame seasons

    He won 9 of 12 golf tournaments twice in his career

    4 majors in a row

    And from 2000-2009 there hasn’t been a more dominant golfer in golf history


    Jack didn’t get injured like tiger and was just a more consistent golfer but Tiger without a doubt was a more dominant golfer and should be considered the greatest of all time


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Originally posted by Landrover View Post
    Hush now GG22...[emoji2962].....that is too much like true FACTS!!![emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787] Little known PGA gem.....70% or so of pro card holders have a 20+ year career and win less than 10 times in there entire career.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

    While I understand your argument, Jack himself called this pretty early in Tiger's career. I'm paraphrasing, so you'll have to trust me, but he basically said "Tiger is an amazing golfer with the ability to break my record, but ability is not always enough. Right now he's young, single and healthy. Let's see how he plays with a wife and kids at home while he's on the road and later in age when injuries start coming". That kinda proved to be prophetic.

    18 has always been the standard, and I don't think it's fair to minimize it now just because Tiger may not reach it. I still think he can if he plays like he has been lately....so does Jack.

    Comment


      Originally posted by ghostgoblin22 View Post
      So 18 is the main underlying number that makes a golfer the greatest of all time?

      Let’s talk numbers then, first off lets just say if Tiger never broke his back or only had half of the 100+ procedures done to his body, he would’ve had easily 12-16 more major starts

      He’s winning 1-4 of those, plus he would’ve had 100 plus tour victory’s

      Second his cut streak will never be beaten, 142 cuts made is 30 better than 2nd place; this streak is one of the most underrated stat of his career

      His winning percentage is 9% better than jacks

      He had 3 separate hall of fame seasons

      He won 9 of 12 golf tournaments twice in his career

      4 majors in a row

      And from 2000-2009 there hasn’t been a more dominant golfer in golf history


      Jack didn’t get injured like tiger and was just a more consistent golfer but Tiger without a doubt was a more dominant golfer and should be considered the greatest of all time


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Ok..... before I get going I'm going to let you know something......

      I have great, great respect for Tiger Woods and everything he's accomplished. I want to make that crystal clear.

      Secondly, unlike many, I don't think he needs to win 19 to be the GOAT. IMOP he simply needs to tie.

      Thirdly, I realize you have zero idea regarding my history with the game of golf, but, it's pretty extensive and spans 56 years. I've literally been around world class golfers my entire life.

      I was mentored by 4 world class players, 3 golfers and 1 tennis player. 2 of the golfers were world top tens with one reaching the summit. The tennis player was as high as world #8. The other golfer who was a teammate of mine at the University of Houston (back when we dominated) won 5 times on the PGA Tour.

      I was actually a player of some substance in my own right and have developed over 75 college players, most from ground zero and most D1. Texas Tech, Texas A&M, LSU, Ole Miss, MS State, Baylor, AZ State, among them. They've won many national junior events, TX, AR, LA state juniors, etc. I've lost count of the number of US Open, US Am, US Mid-Am qualifiers. Same for club champs, but, 2 years ago there were 7....from NJ to Houston to Little Rock, etc.
      We've also developed 4 world top 1000's out of a tin barn in the middle of nowhere. Players I've worked extensively with have won in Australia, Korea, South Africa, and obviously the United States, up to and including the PGA Tour. ALL of this was accomplished without ONE word of self promotion from my mouth, Facebook ad, Twitter post, or even a website.....ALL word of mouth.

      Btw, by extensive I don't mean they used my Trackman for ten minutes, I mean where I KNOW I was an integral part of their success and, most importantly, they do as well.

      So, when it comes to golf, I've been around......

      Now, as to your assertions.....

      "There's lies, **** lies, and statistics," and that statement certainly applies to your long list of such.

      Believe me, I'm as impressed as ANYone breathing with what Tiger Woods has accomplished. After all, unlike most I actually competed at a pretty high level so I KNOW how difficult it is to win ONE time at the highest level, much less 82 times.
      Btw, by your logic then Sam Snead should have been considered the GOAT all these years...btw, he wasn't and isn't in the top 5 of some lists.

      However, there is a reason why EVERY professional golfer I've ever known (and it's a loooooooong list) would trade 10 regular events for ONE major championship. A player is remembered in the historical golf record for winning majors, NOT for winning 10 Byron Nelson's. That's why Koepka has designed his entire career around them. (Smart guy)

      It's also why every world class player I've ever known has designed their entire year around preparing for 4 tournaments. Every practice session is designed around getting their game to the highest level possible for FOUR weeks per year, not the Houston Open, John Deere, or Viking Classic. (Which are used as prep)

      What most don't get is this, once you reach the elite level there are 4 tournaments that truly matter and those tournaments are how a player is measured in the historical record by fellow players.

      Jack Nicklaus has 18 and Tiger has 15 so, IMOP, he needs 3 more.....nobody knows this more than Tiger does. Btw, since you're into "statistics," go do a bit of research on Jack Nicklaus's overall major record. Hint.... it's pretty good.

      I could go on and on and on, but, I won't. Let's just say we'll agree to disagree and let it go at that. It's subjective anyway......

      I hope you ENJOY GREAT success and enjoyment this year in the deer woods....
      Last edited by Slicefixer; 10-31-2019, 09:23 PM.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Slicefixer View Post
        Ok.....
        Jack Nicklaus has 18 and Tiger has 15 so, IMOP, he needs 3 more.....nobody knows this more than Tiger does. Btw, since you're into "statistics," go do a bit of research on Jack Nicklaus's overall major record. Hint.... it's pretty good.
        I already did that for him. It's in post #755 of this thread.....and it is **** impressive.

        Comment


          Originally posted by curtintex View Post
          Jack's top 7 competitors won 40 majors and 250+ tournaments and are all in the HOF...that's just the Top 7. I have another theory if you'll indulge me. While Tiger's competitors are likely just as gifted, I don't think today's players have the same heart for a simple reason....the insane amount of money that the guy finishing second, fifth or twentieth wins. Guys back then battled each other for victories. Today, if you finish second, you still win a **** King's ransom.

          Another argument for Jack being the GOAT is the fact that he not only did he win 18 Majors, but he finished 2nd in 19 other Majors....Woods finish second 6 times. Jack was TOP THREE in 48 Majors....Woods in 24.

          I can't argue with anyone that thinks Woods is the GOAT, he's **** hard to critique, but I can sure plead a case for Jack.
          From post #755

          Comment


            Originally posted by curtintex View Post
            I already did that for him. It's in post #755 of this thread.....and it is **** impressive.
            Well, you removed the "joy" of more case prep from his plate.....😉
            Last edited by Slicefixer; 10-31-2019, 08:53 PM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Slicefixer View Post
              Ok..... before I get going I'm going to let you know something......

              I have great, great respect for Tiger Woods and everything he's accomplished. I want to make that crystal clear.

              Secondly, unlike many, I don't think he needs to win 19 to be the GOAT. IMOP he simply needs to tie.

              Thirdly, I realize you have zero idea regarding my history with the game of golf, but, it's pretty extensive and spans 56 years. I've literally been around world class golfers my entire life.

              I was mentored by 4 world class players, 3 golfers and 1 tennis player. 2 of the golfers were world top tens with one reaching the summit. The tennis player was as high as world #8. The other golfer who was a teammate of mine at the University of Houston (back when we dominated) won 5 times on the PGA Tour.

              I was actually a player of some substance in my own right and have developed over 75 college players, most from ground zero and most D1. They've won many national junior events, TX, AR, LA state juniors, etc. I've lost count of the number of US Open, US Am, US Mid-Am qualifiers. Same for club champs, but, 2 years ago there were 7....from NJ to Houston to Little Rock, etc.
              We've also developed 4 world top 1000's out of a tin barn in the middle of nowhere. Players I've worked extensively with have won in Australia, Korea, South Africa, and obviously the United States, up to and including the PGA Tour. ALL of this was accomplished without ONE word of self promotion from my mouth, Facebook ad, Twitter post, or even a website.....ALL word of mouth.


              By extensive I don't mean they used my Trackman for ten minutes, I mean where I KNOW I was an integral part of their success and, most importantly, they do as well.

              So, when it comes to golf, I've been around......

              Now, as to your assertions.....

              "There's lies, **** lies, and statistics," and that statement certainly applies to your long list of such.

              Believe me, I'm as impressed as ANYone breathing with what Tiger Woods has accomplished. After all, unlike most I actually competed at a pretty high level so I KNOW how difficult it is to win ONE time at the highest level, much less 82 times.
              Btw, by your logic then Sam Snead should have been considered the GOAT all these years...btw, he wasn't and isn't in the top 5 of some lists.

              However, there is a reason why EVERY professional golfer I've ever known (and it's a loooooooong list) would trade 10 regular events for ONE major championship. A player is remembered in the historical golf record for winning majors, NOT for winning 10 Byron Nelson's. That's why Koepka has designed his entire career around them. (Smart guy)

              It's also why every world class player I've ever known has designed their entire year around preparing for 4 tournaments. Every practice session is designed around getting their game to the highest level possible for FOUR weeks per year, not the Houston Open, John Deere, or Viking Classic. (Which are used as prep)

              What most don't get is this, once you reach the elite level there are 4 tournaments that truly matter and those tournaments are how a player is measured in the historical record by fellow players.

              Jack Nicklaus has 18 and Tiger has 15 so, IMOP, he needs 3 more.....nobody knows this more than Tiger does. Btw, since you're into "statistics," go do a bit of research on Jack Nicklaus's overall major record. Hint.... it's pretty good.

              I could go on and on and on, but, I won't. Let's just say we'll agree to disagree and let it go at that. It's subjective anyway......

              I hope you ENJOY GREAT success and enjoyment this year in the deer woods....


              I got the impression early on, that you had some fairly extensive experience in the pro game at a personal level. I really appreciate you laying it out as you have, as well. I would LOVE to have some beers with you, and hear some stories on the matter.

              On the subject of majors, I have to ask your opinion on the depth of the field Jack dealt with, as opposed to Tiger. Obviously there was Arnie and a couple other guys early on. Later came Trevino, Watson, Miller, Ballesteros, and others that don’t come immediately to mind.

              Tiger seemed to have a few years of easy livin (as a young kid) because he was yarding the best in the game, but there were some great players who never got close then. Then after they changed the courses because of him. Earnie, DL3, Duvall, Vijay, come to mind...Phil!

              Then there was the stretch where he had to beat a bunch of guys who built their game because of what he did...and he beat a lot of them.

              Then there was the 9 iron to the dome, and the injuries, and the comebacks...

              Kind of a lot of overlap and run on stuff, I know.

              Long way to ask/say, tiger embarrassed the best in the game when he got in. Then they changed/lengthened a bunch of courses because of him, and he still beat them. Then all the kids who tried to play like him came along, and he beat them for the most part...until...the crash.

              I don’t think Jack had nearly the week to week competition that tiger did/does.








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              Comment


                If you put 25 year old Jack and Tiger together, with equal gear, on the same course.....do you really think Tiger wouldn’t beat him more often than not?

                I just don’t think so, and I am NOT a Tiger fan..


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                Comment


                  Luv to do it sometime Mr Dale and I'll buy.....😉👍

                  Saw em both up close and personal....tiger in his prime and nicklaus in his.....it's close but I'd give the nod to nicklaus in the majors....not at regular events.

                  Nicklaus was a MUCH better driver....
                  Equal with the putter....
                  Equal with irons....
                  Not as good with the wedge.....
                  Not as good with chipping and pitching, but it's fairly close.

                  What most don't understand is the tougher the tournament the more important driving becomes. Almost all professional golfers of any substance, probably 98%, will tell you the driver is, by far, the most important club in the game at the highest levels. Putting is important once you get it in play. 4 drives OUT of play over 4 days and it's almost impossible to win. It's also almost impossible to develop internal arrogance when you doubt the driver. That's why most of the games historic players were great drivers.

                  As for your other question regarding the competition each faced.....that ones easy to me.....


                  The KEY, IMOP, when comparing the latest crop to the historic figures is this.....

                  NOT to take ANYthing away from Tiger Woods, but, he's never had to beat the likes of Player, Watson, Trevino, Floyd, Palmer, Hogan, Seve, Norman and a BUNCH of others who wouldn't back off. (that's why they're all hall of famers) They were ALL so mentally tough and would spit the bit about once per decade.

                  Tigers beaten some fine players and more of em, but, those guys have never had to compete and perform to put a winter coat on their daughter. They're unimaginably spoiled and face ZERO life adversity once they reach world class level. A few years back I witnessed a PGA Tour player of no real significance ***** about the COLOR of his BMW courtesy SUV....i kid you not.

                  There is a BIG difference between worrying about your family eating and what color of Ferrari to buy, Gulfstream or Bombbardier, which section of their mansion to add a wing, or which free Rolex to strap on this am.
                  Last edited by Slicefixer; 10-31-2019, 10:55 PM.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Slicefixer View Post
                    Ok..... before I get going I'm going to let you know something......

                    I have great, great respect for Tiger Woods and everything he's accomplished. I want to make that crystal clear.

                    Secondly, unlike many, I don't think he needs to win 19 to be the GOAT. IMOP he simply needs to tie.

                    Thirdly, I realize you have zero idea regarding my history with the game of golf, but, it's pretty extensive and spans 56 years. I've literally been around world class golfers my entire life.

                    I was mentored by 4 world class players, 3 golfers and 1 tennis player. 2 of the golfers were world top tens with one reaching the summit. The tennis player was as high as world #8. The other golfer who was a teammate of mine at the University of Houston (back when we dominated) won 5 times on the PGA Tour.

                    I was actually a player of some substance in my own right and have developed over 75 college players, most from ground zero and most D1. Texas Tech, Texas A&M, LSU, Ole Miss, MS State, Baylor, AZ State, among them. They've won many national junior events, TX, AR, LA state juniors, etc. I've lost count of the number of US Open, US Am, US Mid-Am qualifiers. Same for club champs, but, 2 years ago there were 7....from NJ to Houston to Little Rock, etc.
                    We've also developed 4 world top 1000's out of a tin barn in the middle of nowhere. Players I've worked extensively with have won in Australia, Korea, South Africa, and obviously the United States, up to and including the PGA Tour. ALL of this was accomplished without ONE word of self promotion from my mouth, Facebook ad, Twitter post, or even a website.....ALL word of mouth.

                    Btw, by extensive I don't mean they used my Trackman for ten minutes, I mean where I KNOW I was an integral part of their success and, most importantly, they do as well.

                    So, when it comes to golf, I've been around......

                    Now, as to your assertions.....

                    "There's lies, **** lies, and statistics," and that statement certainly applies to your long list of such.

                    Believe me, I'm as impressed as ANYone breathing with what Tiger Woods has accomplished. After all, unlike most I actually competed at a pretty high level so I KNOW how difficult it is to win ONE time at the highest level, much less 82 times.
                    Btw, by your logic then Sam Snead should have been considered the GOAT all these years...btw, he wasn't and isn't in the top 5 of some lists.

                    However, there is a reason why EVERY professional golfer I've ever known (and it's a loooooooong list) would trade 10 regular events for ONE major championship. A player is remembered in the historical golf record for winning majors, NOT for winning 10 Byron Nelson's. That's why Koepka has designed his entire career around them. (Smart guy)

                    It's also why every world class player I've ever known has designed their entire year around preparing for 4 tournaments. Every practice session is designed around getting their game to the highest level possible for FOUR weeks per year, not the Houston Open, John Deere, or Viking Classic. (Which are used as prep)

                    What most don't get is this, once you reach the elite level there are 4 tournaments that truly matter and those tournaments are how a player is measured in the historical record by fellow players.

                    Jack Nicklaus has 18 and Tiger has 15 so, IMOP, he needs 3 more.....nobody knows this more than Tiger does. Btw, since you're into "statistics," go do a bit of research on Jack Nicklaus's overall major record. Hint.... it's pretty good.

                    I could go on and on and on, but, I won't. Let's just say we'll agree to disagree and let it go at that. It's subjective anyway......

                    I hope you ENJOY GREAT success and enjoyment this year in the deer woods....


                    Didn’t ask about your “golf background” , I’ve also looked at jacks numbers, I’ve also said jack is the most consistent golfer of all time but it really doesn’t matter you could go 1a or 1b with them, they’re cut above the rest, and I also played on mini pro tours and junior golf since I was 4 so I have a pretty solid background in golf also, was taught by my dad who was a state champion, played division 1 golf with and also played on the Nike tour(Korn ferry tour now) for a couple years

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Slicefixer View Post
                      Luv to do it sometime Mr Dale and I'll buy.....[emoji6][emoji106]



                      Saw em both up close and personal....tiger in his prime and nicklaus in his.....it's close but I'd give the nod to nicklaus in the majors....not at regular events.



                      Nicklaus was a MUCH better driver....

                      Equal with the putter....

                      Equal with irons....

                      Not as good with the wedge.....

                      Not as good with chipping and pitching, but it's fairly close.



                      What most don't understand is the tougher the tournament the more important driving becomes. Almost all professional golfers of any substance, probably 98%, will tell you the driver is, by far, the most important club in the game at the highest levels. Putting is important once you get it in play. 4 drives OUT of play over 4 days and it's almost impossible to win. It's also almost impossible to develop internal arrogance when you doubt the driver. That's why most of the games historic players were great drivers.



                      As for your other question regarding the competition each faced.....that ones easy to me.....





                      The KEY, IMOP, when comparing the latest crop to the historic figures is this.....



                      NOT to take ANYthing away from Tiger Woods, but, he's never had to beat the likes of Player, Watson, Trevino, Floyd, Palmer, Hogan, Seve, Norman and a BUNCH of others who wouldn't back off. (that's why they're all hall of famers) They were ALL so mentally tough and would spit the bit about once per decade.



                      Tigers beaten some fine players and more of em, but, those guys have never had to compete and perform to put a winter coat on their daughter. They're unimaginably spoiled and face ZERO life adversity once they reach world class level. A few years back I witnessed a PGA Tour player of no real significance ***** about the COLOR of his BMW courtesy SUV....i kid you not.



                      There is a BIG difference between worrying about your family eating and what color of Ferrari to buy, Gulfstream or Bombbardier, which section of their mansion to add a wing, or which free Rolex to strap on this am.


                      Awesome stuff, will continue the discussion later!


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                      Comment


                        Ok.....great.....you didn't.... but I provided it to add a bit of perspective.....

                        But you're simply wrong.....

                        It's ALL about major wins in all individual sports in order to be the greatest....tennis and golf come to mind immediately.

                        In fact, if ya want to go down as the best in history, or one of the best, in any sport it's about winning the most important championship/championships in that sport....Daytona.....Indy....super bowl....tour de France....world series etc etc etc. You see the Astros jumping up and down about finishing 2nd last night??? Are the buffalo bills considered an all time great franchise because they won a bunch of division championships, playoff games, made it to 4 straight super bowls, and lost??

                        Federer and Nidal are battling it out right now.....and the ONLY thing on their minds are the 4 majors....winning em. Regular tournament wins, stats will only matter if they end up tied in major championship wins.

                        As I've already said a couple of times, if nicklaus and woods both end up with 18 then the GOAT award is tigers all the way IMOP.....until then, nope.
                        Last edited by Slicefixer; 10-31-2019, 11:22 PM.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Dale Moser View Post
                          Awesome stuff, will continue the discussion later!


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          Look forward to it Dale! 👍

                          Comment


                            You girls need to remember this is all opinion. There is no set standard for what makes the greatest golfer of all time. Some say major wins. Some say all time wins. Some will argue it goes much deeper than that. Either way, IT'S ALL OPINION!.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by JSAPP View Post
                              You girls need to remember this is all opinion. There is no set standard for what makes the greatest golfer of all time. Some say major wins. Some say all time wins. Some will argue it goes much deeper than that. Either way, IT'S ALL OPINION!.
                              Sir, you're correct in that it's subjective.....like Brady vs Montana, etc.... and I clearly stated that up above.

                              However, the VAST majority of the actual PLAYERS consider all time major wins to be the single determinant. It's also the single determinant in tennis. which is the closest sport to golf. The players don't care about how many regular tournaments you've won or any other statistic, it's ALL how many times did you win in the 4 major championships.

                              Not only that, but, major wins in every other sport.....baseball/world series....football/super bowl.... Hockey/Stanley Cup.... Soccer/World Cup.....are the single determinant of the GOAT award amongst the VAST majority.

                              That is my message.....MY opinion, but also that of the vast majority of the actual participants. (and the majority of the general public)

                              Btw, in regards to golf, virtually no one considers all time wins other than major championships....
                              Last edited by Slicefixer; 11-01-2019, 08:19 AM.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Slicefixer View Post
                                Sir, you're correct in that it's subjective.....like Brady vs Montana, etc.... and I clearly stated that up above.

                                However, the VAST majority of the actual PLAYERS consider all time major wins to be the single determinant. It's also the single determinant in tennis. which is the closest sport to golf. The players don't care about how many regular tournaments you've won or any other statistic, it's ALL how many times did you win in the 4 major championships.

                                Not only that, but, major wins in every other sport.....baseball/world series....football/super bowl.... Hockey/Stanley Cup.... Soccer/World Cup.....are the single determinant of the GOAT award amongst the VAST majority.

                                That is my message.....MY opinion, but also that of the vast majority of the actual participants.

                                Btw, in regards to golf, virtually no one considers all time wins other than major championships....


                                I agree with the majors being the pinnacle but if you actually look at the stats Tiger was more dominant, won at a better percentage rate, the cut streak, all the records he owns it’s pretty simple that Tiger was a better golfer, then jack himself Tiger was better but hey you got background in golf so what you say must be true


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