African safari disaster

[TeamAmerica]

But from what I can gather he hasn't paid the $15. He has only paid deposit. If he has paid more he hasnt said.

I agree, but what is the value of the lodging in the total price? it is not itemized so OP wants Lammie to state his case on how to adjust the invoice if a discount is warranted. OP offered a strategy to discount the wounded animals as one option which Lammie poo poo'd.

ANOTHER ANALOGY

OP orders a $15 steak and receives a $10 steak, but is charged $20 for it. Should he pay the $15? OP is making the right choice by not negotiating with HIMSELF!

[Sparkles]

I agree, but what is the value of the lodging in the total price? it is not itemized so OP wants Lammie to state his case on how to adjust the invoice if a discount is warranted. OP offered a strategy to discount the wounded animals as one option which Lammie poo poo'd.



ANOTHER ANALOGY



OP orders a $15 steak and receives a $10 steak, but is charged $20 for it. Should he pay the $15?

The lodging was advertised to help entice a booking as a value adder. It may not be a line item but it is certainly impounded into the price.


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[gingib]

Lammie is a joke after I read this. He tried to wiggle his way out of this prior to him returning back to US. Then got very defensive in texts because he knew he was wrong.

ALl over under $1000....but now he lost way more then that from this thread that will hurt his business. Great job

[Take Dead Aim]

I agree, but what is the value of the lodging in the total price? it is not itemized so OP wants Lammie to state his case on how to adjust the invoice if a discount is warranted. OP offered a strategy to discount the wounded animals as one option which Lammie poo poo'd.

ANOTHER ANALOGY

OP orders a $15 steak and receives a $10 steak, but is charged $20 for it. Should he pay the $15?

Agree with that point but that is why I would have had the discussion with Lammie in SA while they were face to face. Let my disappointment be known and discuss how we could make it right. Right now he has only paid his $2000 deposit on a $6800 bill. At some point he has to take responsibility for eating the $15 steak even though he knew the quality was $10 and never complained. Say equivalent to ordering rare steak and they bring out well done. You clean you plate and say I'm not satisfied as I ordered a rare steak. Then refusing to pay even though you had steak, mashed and dessert. Had he let them know the steak was well done and they said it's on us or we will bring another out immediately that would be a different story.

My point all along on this is they both should have been Men in SA and resolved any issues there. Shooting a bunch of animals then coming back to US and not paying your balance(even the balance you feel is due) is not right. Maybe I just look at things different than most.

[160class]

I get that. But in think we can all agree to that he owes something so he should start by paying that. I see no reason to hold out paying on something you know you owe. Get to that point and I'm on Cody's side until then he is in the wrong in my eyes. As is Lammie.

But as shown in the texts between the two, when Cody brought it up, Lammie went directly into let’s get the lawyers involved, no let’s talk about this or anything like that, just said I’m getting a lawyer and that’s that, at that point, you don’t pay until it gets resolved by the lawyers

[Charles]

I now know who not to book a SA trip with.

[Stolle]

Agree with that point but that is why I would have had the discussion with Lammie in SA while they were face to face. Let my disappointment be known and discuss how we could make it right. Right now he has only paid his $2000 deposit on a $6800 bill. At some point he has to take responsibility for eating the $15 steak even though he knew the quality was $10 and never complained. Say equivalent to ordering rare steak and they bring out well done. You clean you plate and say I'm not satisfied as I ordered a rare steak. Then refusing to pay even though you had steak, mashed and dessert. Had he let them know the steak was well done and they said it's on us or we will bring another out immediately that would be a different story.

My point all along on this is they both should have been Men in SA and resolved any issues there. Shooting a bunch of animals then coming back to US and not paying your balance(even the balance you feel is due) is not right. Maybe I just look at things different than most.

I completely disagree. I made my first trip to RSA this summer and I would have never made stink with the person that held the keys to getting me back to the airport from the bush. Plus its not like they booked a weekend Hunt in Llano and had the choice of turning around and going home. They made the best of it and abided by his policy to even up when they returned to the US.

Can you honestly tell me you would have been OK with showing up to accommodations like that if you were not told about it prior to arriving?

[jaime1982]

Finally got bit. 6 moths ago I put a post on here asking for outfitter recommendations for a SA bow hunt, several people recommended Dare To Bow Hunt so I figured that would be a good place to start.

I did some more research on the outfit and couldn’t find a bad word about it so I contacted the owner of the outfit (Lammie). Lammie and I spoke on the phone for several minutes in regards to what animals I wanted to hunt and he informed me that he had two areas to hunt one of which being in Zululand and the other further north in Kimberly. Lammie felt strongly that the zululand location would be the one for us so that’s the one we booked. Pictures on the website and ones he sent of the lodging, property, and animals were beautiful and I couldn’t have been more happy at that time.

Fast forward to last month a couple weeks prior to us leaving and I get a call from Lammie wanting to meet up in person. This was convenient as he lives in Texas so we decided to meet in college station.

Our hunting group and myself walk into the meeting with Lammie and he handed some paperwork out to each one of us outlining the hunt and what it would intel. I start reading the paperwork and notice that the hunt package is now for the Kimberly location. Obviously I thought he had just handed us the wrong paperwork so I stopped and brought that up. Lammie than proceeds to tell us that it would be better if we went to the Kimberly location as the animals are bigger and there are more options..... funny as it’s the exact opposite of what he told me in our original conversation when he sold me on the Zululand location.

We hear his side of the story and run some numbers, for the animals we wanted to shoot it was going to nearly double in cost by going to the Kimberly location so we decided we would just rather stick to the original hunt that we paid for. Immediately I could tell Lammie was put off by this and his attitude changed negative very quickly. We left the meeting and he sent me a text on the way home basically scolding me for wanting to go against his wishes and assured us that he was only trying to do what is best for us. At this point the price change alone didn’t make it an option as a couple of the guys going were on a tight budget.

Fast forward again, we step off the plane in Africa and a stranger meets us, he said he would be our PH and would be taking care of us for the week (red flags everywhere at this point) we go ahead and play along and hop in the car with him and ride to the location. Couple hours of talking to the PH and I knew he was a good guy, very nice and actually enjoyed his company more than Lammie’s.

We roll into the hunting property and I’m trying to pick his brain about the situation without him knowing what I was doing. Asking about the property size, animals, lodging etc. First thing he tells me is the size of the property, it’s less than 1/2 of what we booked in the original package(again red flags all over). Secondly are the animals, animals we had paid for in our package didn’t even exist in these ranches!! Not even an option to hunt them as they don’t have any!

I’m extremely unhappy at this point as I have been lied to directly to my face several times. We roll into the lodge and I kid you not it is under construction, contractors setting trusses when we drive up. Our PH hops out and says here it is and points to two very small cabins down the hill a ways. These cabins are a far stretch from what was pictured on the website.

Trying to make the best out of a bad situation we play along not wanting something small like living quarters ruin our trip. At this point we are on our 3rd day without a shower as we flew for two days. I go into the room and turn on the water..... none. No water for the next two days as we wait for plumbers to fix the issues. Turns out we were the first people to stay in those cabins and they just finished them up hours prior to us driving up. Literally fresh paint on the walls. The lodge literally has no roof and is just open trusses, no kitchen to cook, washer or dryer, or WiFi as promised by lammie. (WiFi is a big deal to me as I have to be able to respond to business emails)

Trying to make the best of it we get our hunting stuff on and head to the blinds. On the way out to the blinds the PH spills the beans and tells me that Lammie SOLD his Zululand location last year!!!! Now it is all making sense and it’s becoming clear that we were intentionally lied to and sold something that no longer existed! A real FYRE fest situation. We hunt for a couple days and each kill a few animals, still unhappy with the situation, but doing our best to not let it ruin the experience. Our original hunt package stated that cull animal (female warthogs and impalas) could be shot at $75 each. Awesome, we are all shooting a bunch of them, about 4 days into the hunt our PH informs us that the cull animals are actually $160 in this area..... I express to him that lammie said they were $75 and he responds that he can’t do it for that price because those prices were for Lammie’s area.... again, another lie and frankly an issue he needs to take up with lammie.

We get through the week and make it back to Texas. I step off the plane in Austin and send lammie a text outlining the hunt and expressing my disappointment with him and his communication of the situation. Lammie responds with a final invoice for the animals, all the prices have changed from the original list.

***Now it’s important to understand that the lodging situation as well as the price increases would not have big deal had he just come out and told us about the actual situation “hey guys I sold that location so if y’all still wanna go there here is what that will look like and here is the new pricing for the animals” that is all he had to say and we would have been more than understanding of the situation. Unfortunately that’s not what happened.

At this point I’m more ****** at the principle of the issues than the actual issues themselves. I send him a text and tell him that I would like to see the cull animals be priced as originally agreed upon and would also like him to think about what an acceptable discount for the lack of lodging would be. He reply’s and goes straight to lawyers.... in a nutshell he said If you don’t pay I’ll take you to court and you will never see your animals....

I’m dumbfounded at this point and reply trying to ease the tensions and assure him that I’m wanting to pay, but I don’t feel as if we should be paying full price. Again, he plays hard ball and throws the lawsuit out there. This goes back and forth for a day or so and we have finally reached a dead end road. He won’t budge and I refuse to be screwed over more than I already have by this man. I don’t want to get lawyers involved, just wanna handle it like men, unfortunately he isn’t giving me an option. Am I out of line here?

Agree but you still owe the $10. You don't owe nothing.

What if the meal had a (money back guarantee)?

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[Stuck]

I get that. But in think we can all agree to that he owes something so he should start by paying that. I see no reason to hold out paying on something you know you owe. Get to that point and I'm on Cody's side until then he is in the wrong in my eyes. As is Lammie.

That would be a great option if he had his animals but the PH is holding them until paid in full from my understanding.

[RiverRat1]

Agree with that point but that is why I would have had the discussion with Lammie in SA while they were face to face. Let my disappointment be known and discuss how we could make it right. Right now he has only paid his $2000 deposit on a $6800 bill. At some point he has to take responsibility for eating the $15 steak even though he knew the quality was $10 and never complained. Say equivalent to ordering rare steak and they bring out well done. You clean you plate and say I'm not satisfied as I ordered a rare steak. Then refusing to pay even though you had steak, mashed and dessert. Had he let them know the steak was well done and they said it's on us or we will bring another out immediately that would be a different story.

My point all along on this is they both should have been Men in SA and resolved any issues there. Shooting a bunch of animals then coming back to US and not paying your balance(even the balance you feel is due) is not right. Maybe I just look at things different than most.

I don't think Lammie was ever in SA. But heck I'm not even sure what page this threads on anymore.

And there was no way to "make it right" and everyone knew that. Was Lammie going to speed up construction real quick LOL If there was a fix I'm sure the PH would have used it.

But as shown in the texts between the two, when Cody brought it up, Lammie went directly into let’s get the lawyers involved, no let’s talk about this or anything like that, just said I’m getting a lawyer and that’s that, at that point, you don’t pay until it gets resolved by the lawyers

This is not hard to understand.

Why pay what you think you owe and still be sued? That would be dumb.

[Buff]

He is offering a far better deal to Lammie than I would. No way I pay full daily fees for less than 5 star accommodations. I would never pay more than the agreed upon rates for animals. I have hunted Africa a lot. I hunted with Lammie a couple of times and with 6 or 10 other places, I have have a couple of times where we changed ranches but the rates have never been changed EVER. The Rand jumps up and down every day so the Outfitters know they are taking a risk when they book any hunt a year in advance.

[RiverRat1]

What if the meal had a (money back guarantee)?

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You first pay and then ask for your money back. I'm sure that would work out just fine in this case as we can clearly see how easy Lammie is to work with

[Stuck]

Scammie Lammie

Trump? Is that you???

[CodyWitt]

I would be more than happy to pay the bill, but only if the bill has the correct amount on it. And at this point I’m not willing to pay until I see my animals here in the states.... Lammie has already made comments that make me question the condition of our animals... furthermore, he has done NOTHING up to this point that would make me feel confident that even if I did pay that our animals would arrive. I’m certainly not going to take his word for it! I’m not taking any chances on the guy, protecting myself in every way possible.

[EastTexasMan]

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. The OP is only asking for 2 things in the text

*Culls be charged at $75 - This should be a no brainer since it was agreed upon prior to hunt

*The two wounded animals (that survived) to be discounted to a 50% normal rate - I figure this comes out to like $1000 or so. This would offset any "discount" for the lodging / ranch not being as advertised.

Seems MORE than fair, *** is the outfitters problem? If he loses money, so be it, that's the risk you take when you're juggling ranches as an outfitter. Part of the game.