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    Pass-through, is it needed?

    I still want a pass-through. Just giving another way of looking at things.
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    #2
    Me too. Arrows kill through blood loss and/or lung collapse, not through energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.

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      #3
      I still think you should shoot the biggest broadhead you can accurately. Which usually means a mechanical, because most folks don't have the ability to tune a giant traditional head out of fast modern setups. It provides an insurance policy, and If you take broadside shots for the most part, you should still get pass throughs. I used to shoot the big Vortex broadheads with Hoyt vipertec. Bow's IBO was 300FPS, and I was pulling 64lbs. Most of the arrows ended up just under the skin on the off side, and most deer didn't make it out of site. And recovered a couple that I probably shouldn't have.

      Will never understand the guys who are shooting blaz'n fast setups with tiny little broadheads like slicktricks etc. It's like making a surgical wound if you make a bad shot. You may get lucky and hit an artery, but why put all that energy burying your arrow 8 inches in the ground after it's zipped through the deer.
      Last edited by Lone_Wolf; 03-25-2021, 08:28 AM.

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        #4
        Originally posted by ultrastealth View Post
        Me too. Arrows kill through blood loss and/or lung collapse, not through energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.
        The arrow moving through an animal is transferring kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is what is doing the work. I'm not talking about hydrostatic shock. I'm talking about physics. It takes energy to push a broadhead through an animal. Do you want that energy wasted or use as much of it as you can?

        From your statement, if that is what you got from the paper. Then I failed at writing it.

        Thanks.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Lone_Wolf View Post
          I still think you should shoot the biggest broadhead you can accurately. Which usually means a mechanical, because most folks don't have the ability to tune a giant traditional head out of fast modern setups. It provides an insurance policy, and If you take broadside shots for the most part, you should still get pass throughs. I used to shoot the big Vortex broadheads with Hoyt vipertec. Bow's IBO was 300FPS, and I was pulling 64lbs. Most of the arrows ended up just under the skin on the off side, and most deer didn't make it out of site. And recovered a couple that I probably shouldn't have.

          Will never understand the guys who are shooting blaz'n fast setups with tiny little broadheads like slicktricks etc. It's like making a surgical wound if you make a bad shot. You may get lucky and hit an artery, but why put all that energy burying your arrow 8 inches in the ground after it's zipped through the deer.
          yes sir.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by enewman View Post
            The arrow moving through an animal is transferring kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is what is doing the work. I'm not talking about hydrostatic shock. I'm talking about physics. It takes energy to push a broadhead through an animal. Do you want that energy wasted or use as much of it as you can?

            From your statement, if that is what you got from the paper. Then I failed at writing it.

            Thanks.
            you need to understand kinetic energy better, the kinetic energy of an arrow is less than most standard velocity .22 lr rounds,,, it is blood loss from cutting that kills with an arrow not ke, never was and never will be... and the energy to push an arrow through is momentum not ke,,,, ke has little to no killing effect with an arrow,,,

            and pass throughs are far better than not,,, blood trails are most often better on the opposite side than entrance since most of us do not shoot level , instead we try to shoot from elevated as much as possible, and the lower hole is the one most blood pours out of,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,
            Last edited by xman59; 03-25-2021, 09:02 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by xman59 View Post
              you need to understand kinetic energy better, the kinetic energy of an arrow is less than most standard velocity .22 lr rounds,,, it is blood loss from cutting that kills with an arrow not ke, never was and never will be... and the energy to push an arrow through is momentum not ke,,,, ke has little to no killing effect with an arrow,,,

              and pass throughs are far better than not,,, blood trails are most often better on the opposite side than entrance since most of us do not shoot level , instead we try to shoot from elevated as much as possible, and the lower hole is the one most blood pours out of,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,
              I understand KE very well. I also stated we always should strive for a pass-through. momentum is not work. momentum is how hard it is to stop.


              I have a test coming that I'm proving this based on physics. by the way. physics states "two unequal objects but equal momentum the object with the highest KE will do the work. in archery, the arrow with the highest KE with matching momentum will be the lighter arrow. Now, I'm not talking about impulse at this time. only KE and momentum. Impulse will come into play if the heavy bone is it.

              but for the most lethal kill the larger the wound channel the faster blood loss. meaning, a quicker kill.




              Thank you
              Last edited by enewman; 03-25-2021, 09:11 AM.

              Comment


                #8
                Pass-throughs are handy from a tracking perspective too, though I get what you're saying about the energy/damage lost potentially. It's worth it to me to "waste" a little energy because two holes are better than one for putting blood on the ground IMO, but I also agree that it seems some people make too much of a deal about killing the top 10 inches of dirt or a tree on the other side of the animal they are trying to kill. I like a big cutting broadhead as much as possible, and a Spitfire *** or similar seems to do the job as long as I do mine.

                I'm sure there will be a Ranch Fairy video link posted by the time I finish writing this hyping up 900 grain arrow setups and single bevel fixed blades

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by ATX Tyler View Post
                  Pass-throughs are handy from a tracking perspective too, though I get what you're saying about the energy/damage lost potentially. It's worth it to me to "waste" a little energy because two holes are better than one for putting blood on the ground IMO, but I also agree that it seems some people make too much of a deal about killing the top 10 inches of dirt or a tree on the other side of the animal they are trying to kill. I like a big cutting broadhead as much as possible, and a Spitfire *** or similar seems to do the job as long as I do mine.

                  I'm sure there will be a Ranch Fairy video link posted by the time I finish writing this hyping up 900 grain arrow setups and single bevel fixed blades
                  Ranch fairy. We call him tinker bell.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ATX Tyler View Post
                    Pass-throughs are handy from a tracking perspective too, though I get what you're saying about the energy/damage lost potentially. It's worth it to me to "waste" a little energy because two holes are better than one for putting blood on the ground IMO, but I also agree that it seems some people make too much of a deal about killing the top 10 inches of dirt or a tree on the other side of the animal they are trying to kill. I like a big cutting broadhead as much as possible, and a Spitfire *** or similar seems to do the job as long as I do mine.

                    I'm sure there will be a Ranch Fairy video link posted by the time I finish writing this hyping up 900 grain arrow setups and single bevel fixed blades
                    The last few years (5 or so) I went into the cup of Ashby kool-aid. I built arrows for pass-throughs. What I got was consistently no blood trails. I have climbed out of that cup. got deep into physics. With my study of Physics, I have found that sometimes years back we stopped listening to the old-timers and we got into saying momentum is what does the killing. This is not what physics tells us. So, I have really been looking at how we can get the archery world back on track.

                    One thing I'm leaving out is mass. we must not forget about mass.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by enewman View Post
                      The arrow moving through an animal is transferring kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is what is doing the work. I'm not talking about hydrostatic shock. I'm talking about physics. It takes energy to push a broadhead through an animal. Do you want that energy wasted or use as much of it as you can?

                      From your statement, if that is what you got from the paper. Then I failed at writing it.

                      Thanks.
                      What matters is the work that an arrow/broadhead performs. Just because an arrow completely passes though the animal, it doesn't mean it hasn't done adequate work to kill the animal. I agree that, with fixed blade broadheads, you sometimes don't get great blood trails. That being said, if correctly placed, it won't matter. On marginal hits, expandables may be a better choice, because they do more work (tissue damage) than a fixed head. The problem with expandable is that you get more marginal hits due to lack of penetration when hitting solid bone. Shot placement is by far the most important factor, and everything else is making up for poor shot placement.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by ultrastealth View Post
                        What matters is the work that an arrow/broadhead performs. Just because an arrow completely passes though the animal, it doesn't mean it hasn't done adequate work to kill the animal. I agree that, with fixed blade broadheads, you sometimes don't get great blood trails. That being said, if correctly placed, it won't matter. On marginal hits, expandables may be a better choice, because they do more work (tissue damage) than a fixed head. The problem with expandable is that you get more marginal hits due to lack of penetration when hitting solid bone. Shot placement is by far the most important factor, and everything else is making up for poor shot placement.
                        Yes, shot placement. This is a subject that needs to be talked about more.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by xman59 View Post
                          you need to understand kinetic energy better, the kinetic energy of an arrow is less than most standard velocity .22 lr rounds,,, it is blood loss from cutting that kills with an arrow not ke, never was and never will be... and the energy to push an arrow through is momentum not ke,,,, ke has little to no killing effect with an arrow,,,

                          and pass throughs are far better than not,,, blood trails are most often better on the opposite side than entrance since most of us do not shoot level , instead we try to shoot from elevated as much as possible, and the lower hole is the one most blood pours out of,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,
                          ok, I see a wording problem. yes, the broadhead is what is cutting and what kills. The KE is what gives the ability of the mass of the arrow to drive through the animal so the broadhead can do its job.

                          thank you.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Lone_Wolf View Post
                            I still think you should shoot the biggest broadhead you can accurately. Which usually means a mechanical, because most folks don't have the ability to tune a giant traditional head out of fast modern setups. It provides an insurance policy, and If you take broadside shots for the most part, you should still get pass throughs. I used to shoot the big Vortex broadheads with Hoyt vipertec. Bow's IBO was 300FPS, and I was pulling 64lbs. Most of the arrows ended up just under the skin on the off side, and most deer didn't make it out of site. And recovered a couple that I probably shouldn't have.

                            Will never understand the guys who are shooting blaz'n fast setups with tiny little broadheads like slicktricks etc. It's like making a surgical wound if you make a bad shot. You may get lucky and hit an artery, but why put all that energy burying your arrow 8 inches in the ground after it's zipped through the deer.

                            I shoot a slick trick standard myself. I guess the reason why I shoot a small fixed blade from my setup is because of the forgiving nature of the smaller heads. If my form is slightly off at the time of the shot it’s not affected nearly as bad as if I was shooting a large cutting fixed blade. Of course there’s always the mechanical vs fixed debate. I’ve had better success with fixed, and I like a forgiving setup.

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                              #15
                              Good write up

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