Unless you're high fence, culling is pissing in the wind. Let 'em all get a little age and shoot what you like. You'll be surprised what " inferior " deer can do with age and proper nutrition..
Jeff, I don't have to tell you this, but the FIRST thing you should do is figure out yourself what YOU want as a philosophy and lease atmosphere since you're the "lease boss" and then find people who will fit that bill. This thread is the perfect example of why that should be the first thing you do. Just look at the posts from an attitude standpoint. Some say no rules, let me shoot what makes me happy... There are NO trophy ranches anywhere that run with that attitude. It's not bad or wrong, but not conducive to growing big deer (IF that's what you are trying to do). Others say don't shoot anything until it's 5.5 years old... Others have mentioned spikes ... It goes on and on... As you know, I've run leases for over 40 years, and learned a looooong time ago, if you are trying to fill a lease with members just to get the money together, you're asking for trouble. You need like-minded folks to form a successful group, no matter what your lease philosophy will be. But since it's YOUR lease, that philosophy should be set by you.
I happen to be part of a huge hunting operation now that has a fully funded management program of a large tract of land (hundreds of thousands of acres in total). The pasture I have is in the middle of over 70,000 acres under the same management program, It is NOT high fenced, but it is big enough and managed well enough that indeed we can have an effect on the quality of the deer we grow on the property. It takes time, but it works. If culling/managing for big deer did not work on low fenced places, there would be nothing special about hunting South Texas. It's ludicrous to believe otherwise... I'll not get into arguments or debates about it as it's worse than politics or religion arguments. I manage our lease, but I'm only part of a rather large group of like-minded lease managers that operates under the guidelines of a very well versed and paid wildlife biologist that is funded by a serious ranching/hunting operation...
One of the early posts gave you a pretty good suggestion as to how to start and that is take a serious survey and develop a bell curve of the herd and see what it looks like now. If you want to bend that curve, then set your guidelines to attach that portion of the curve... I can say with certainty that bending the Bell curve toward increasing the number of upper age bracket bucks is the strongest action you can take to grow big deer. What a "big" deer is is dependent on where you are located and the condition of the herd when you start... The other very important consideration is to look at total population and move as quickly as you can to bring the population in line with the property's ability to support the herd from a nutrition point of view... That would include taking out as many excess animals as you can and if possible a structured supplemental feeding program... Depending on the size and location of the property and the other properties around it, getting started on the TPWD MLDP may be worth considering... This is a very good tool that you can use to control population... What it boils down to is you can lower your hunter density without adversely effecting your harvest potential... With the MLD tags, if you wanted to you, yourself could go out and shoot all the does you needed to take off the property... Hunting off your TPWD hunting license tags, that is not likely to work...
If you want to talk about it, give me a call. You have my numbers...
Where we hunt the deer population is high. Those who say shoot the does to reduce deer numbers. Is there any concern about too many bucks? We already have lots of bucks. IMO they already outnumber the does. I’m currently on a lease that is right next to the place I’m considering. I’ve been on it 4 years now, and see lots of deer every hunt. I’ve killed bucks from 136”-154” in those 4 years. That’s with most current members feeding nothing but corn. I’m wanting to grow trophy bucks, and have fun doing it.
Good luck "culling" especially in that part of the state. The only 2 rules I would put in place are.
1) if it makes you happy shoot it.
2) try to shoot bucks that are over 4.5 years old.
If you have any questions about rule #2, see rule #1.
Life is too short to be bickering over deer. It cracks me up all the people "managing" a low fence deer herd and friendships lost of this crazy idea.
Its really interesting to watch hunters "manage" a herd for years, argue over what deer to kill, lose frienships, with the focus on improving the quality of the herd. Then be kicked off of a lease, with no notice from the landowner.
I run two smaller leases. I Lease out to like minded friends and have zero rules. Pretty fun. I used to run a larger lease with rules, took the fun out of it.
good luck with that! lol
as far as culling goes, people are going to read into that word however they want to. We will "cull" around 15-18 bucks this year. some are old old, and some are 4-ish, but trash. I don't want to feed them anymore. I also don't want them filling a "spot" in our pastures. Why let a 4 year old 115" 8 point stay around when you have a feeder pen full of 3-5 year old 10's and 12's? I also don’t want a scenario of almost mature inferior deer running off deer that have a lot of potential.
you have to kill something... killing off the bottom of the herd works.
that's not saying kill yearling spikes, or 2 year old 8's... I also don’t think I’m going to eradicate bad genetics, BUT I do know I’m not going to have to feed their *** anymore! LOL.
, the word "cull" seems to get a lot of people fired up. It's pretty simple.. do you want *that* deer or not?
Jeff, I don't have to tell you this, but the FIRST thing you should do is figure out yourself what YOU want as a philosophy and lease atmosphere since you're the "lease boss" and then find people who will fit that bill. This thread is the perfect example of why that should be the first thing you do. Just look at the posts from an attitude standpoint. Some say no rules, let me shoot what makes me happy... There are NO trophy ranches anywhere that run with that attitude. It's not bad or wrong, but not conducive to growing big deer (IF that's what you are trying to do). Others say don't shoot anything until it's 5.5 years old... Others have mentioned spikes ... It goes on and on... As you know, I've run leases for over 40 years, and learned a looooong time ago, if you are trying to fill a lease with members just to get the money together, you're asking for trouble. You need like-minded folks to form a successful group, no matter what your lease philosophy will be. But since it's YOUR lease, that philosophy should be set by you.
I happen to be part of a huge hunting operation now that has a fully funded management program of a large tract of land (hundreds of thousands of acres in total). The pasture I have is in the middle of over 70,000 acres under the same management program, It is NOT high fenced, but it is big enough and managed well enough that indeed we can have an effect on the quality of the deer we grow on the property. It takes time, but it works. If culling/managing for big deer did not work on low fenced places, there would be nothing special about hunting South Texas. It's ludicrous to believe otherwise... I'll not get into arguments or debates about it as it's worse than politics or religion arguments. I manage our lease, but I'm only part of a rather large group of like-minded lease managers that operates under the guidelines of a very well versed and paid wildlife biologist that is funded by a serious ranching/hunting operation...
One of the early posts gave you a pretty good suggestion as to how to start and that is take a serious survey and develop a bell curve of the herd and see what it looks like now. If you want to bend that curve, then set your guidelines to attach that portion of the curve... I can say with certainty that bending the Bell curve toward increasing the number of upper age bracket bucks is the strongest action you can take to grow big deer. What a "big" deer is is dependent on where you are located and the condition of the herd when you start... The other very important consideration is to look at total population and move as quickly as you can to bring the population in line with the property's ability to support the herd from a nutrition point of view... That would include taking out as many excess animals as you can and if possible a structured supplemental feeding program... Depending on the size and location of the property and the other properties around it, getting started on the TPWD MLDP may be worth considering... This is a very good tool that you can use to control population... What it boils down to is you can lower your hunter density without adversely effecting your harvest potential... With the MLD tags, if you wanted to you, yourself could go out and shoot all the does you needed to take off the property... Hunting off your TPWD hunting license tags, that is not likely to work...
If you want to talk about it, give me a call. You have my numbers...
Funny - I had just finished writing a reply very similar to yours. I have helped manage 9000 low fenced acres on a 16,000 acre LF ranch. Have done it now for 13 years.
Our LO and our members cull hard and we have seen the results. It is not the only reason for our success but we certainly believe it is a big part of it. We cull does hard and any buck that is 4 years or older with less than 10 points we are taking out. We have so many bucks with 10-20 points and score 160-200 there is zero use for any inferior buck. We are strict about not taking trophy bucks before the are at least age 6.5. We regularly let 160-180 inch and better bucks walk that are 4-5 years old.
I, like you, will not get into the cull or don't cull debate - all I know is what my eyes have shown me over the past 13 years of managing this place.
Unless you're high fence, culling is pissing in the wind. Let 'em all get a little age and shoot what you like. You'll be surprised what " inferior " deer can do with age and proper nutrition..
Where we hunt the deer population is high. Those who say shoot the does to reduce deer numbers. Is there any concern about too many bucks? We already have lots of bucks. IMO they already outnumber the does. I’m currently on a lease that is right next to the place I’m considering. I’ve been on it 4 years now, and see lots of deer every hunt. I’ve killed bucks from 136”-154” in those 4 years. That’s with most current members feeding nothing but corn. I’m wanting to grow trophy bucks, and have fun doing it.
I have always been of the mind that the ideal doe to buck ratio was 1:1, but that the average was 3:1 or higher. I have never even heard of a property having more bucks. Sounds like a good problem to have. That being said, I would still shoot for a 1:1 so maybe lower your minimum age on bucks to round out your numbers a bit (at least for a season or two) and even things out. If not, pass on a few does this year to bring up their numbers - but this won't help with your grocery bill.
as far as culling goes, people are going to read into that word however they want to. We will "cull" around 15-18 bucks this year. some are old old, and some are 4-ish, but trash. I don't want to feed them anymore. I also don't want them filling a "spot" in our pastures. Why let a 4 year old 115" 8 point stay around when you have a feeder pen full of 3-5 year old 10's and 12's? I also don’t want a scenario of almost mature inferior deer running off deer that have a lot of potential.
you have to kill something... killing off the bottom of the herd works.
that's not saying kill yearling spikes, or 2 year old 8's... but in general, the word "cull" seems to get a lot of people fired up. It's pretty simple.. do you want *that* deer or not?
This ^^^^ is the situation I see myself being in. Lots of mouths to feed and some bucks just won’t even be what I’d consider a trophy. Making rules regarding how to hunt “trash bucks” and older ones that won’t score well is my concern.
However shooting two mature trophy bucks per member is not realistic for long term success. So in most lease set ups there is an allowance for the 2nd buck to be a “cull” of some sort.
And the reason is because, you will have a hard time getting guys to join a lease where they are only allowed to kill one buck.
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