White settlement Church shooting

[Gherkin05]

Should it make me nervous knowing there are people out there carrying that can't even carry on a civil discussion on the internet without inciting conflict by calling other site members "ignorant", "stupid", "idiot", "clueless" or telling them to "stfu?"

Bingo- they may need to regulate themselves! [emoji23]

[PondPopper]

I can apprentice the sentiment of your statements but that’s like demanding people drive responsibly. Some do, many don’t. Part of living is a community.

There are plenty of gun laws to regulate irresponsible gun owners/actions.

2A is a nonnegotiable right. If you’re not a felon you should be able to carry without the feds or the state “approving it”.

The 2A is not the problem and I do realize that it is nonnegotiable and that is a good thing.. Own all the guns you want.. Keep them at home.

My problem is with the CHL and how easy it is to get.. If a person is going to be "licensed" to conceal carry with loaded weapons, which MANY do, in crowded public places, then the training required and the proficiency one should have to demonstrate should be much greater then what it currently is.. Its almost a joke.. Seen it first hand..

[PondPopper]

https://youtu.be/kciJclao2TM

The hero instructor talks about the importance of training at 11:28.
We agree.

[Incline]

I greatly appreciate this post. We had many discussions at church over this several years ago. At that point it was so unclear many people on the team decided that they would not carry. I think the new law did clear this up and eased some of the concerns.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

[Michael]

Unfortunately it’s almost impossible to mandate personal responsibility. What are the criteria for proper training? Who decides? Should it solely be a shooting proficiency test, or scenario based, which can be subjective? Should there be a physical fitness requirement? Mental acuity under stress? You can teach a class on “gun safety”, but how do you measure and score somebody’s trigger and muzzle discipline in a high stress environment? Should there be mandatory standards for holster retention? Speed of draw to first shot minimums? Equipment inspections to make sure guns are properly maintained and reliable?

I don’t disagree that everybody shouldhave more and continuous training, but I’m not sure that can be effectively legislated and regulated.

[PondPopper]

Unfortunately it’s almost impossible to mandate personal responsibility. What are the criteria for proper training? Who decides? Should it solely be a shooting proficiency test, or scenario based, which can be subjective? Should there be a physical fitness requirement? Mental acuity under stress? You can teach a class on “gun safety”, but how do you measure and score somebody’s trigger and muzzle discipline in a high stress environment? Should there be mandatory standards for holster retention? Speed of draw to first shot minimums? Equipment inspections to make sure guns are properly maintained and reliable?

I don’t disagree that everybody shouldhave more and continuous training, but I’m not sure that can be effectively legislated and regulated.

A good start would be when a full grown man tries to put the magazine in his Brand New automatic pistol that he is "qualifying" with BACKWARDS(bullets pointing at him) he should be immediately sent home..
SMH

[flywise]

What is the expectation of the armed citizen? Is it that they will confront a shooter or is it that you use it only if confronted by the shooter?
Example: Your in a walmart and hear shots. Do you move toward the shots or do you look for an escape route?
If i am carrying i am moving toward an escape route and will only pull my weapon out when i actually see the shooter and he is in proximity to me. I have never had the expectation that CHL holders are to move toward the offender. I think training to intentionally engage a shooter ( move toward the shooter like a police officer would) is much different than training or practice for self defense. Someone who just wants a fighting chance at survival just needs to know how to operate the weapon because the target is going to be pretty close. When i think of armed teachers i dont see 10 teachers running down the halls looking to confront the shooter. I see 1-2 doing that and the rest sheltered in their rooms with the kids and only using the gun if the shooter enters that room. There is no danger to the kids if that teacher has minimal training or just practice at home. They will all be dead regardless if the shooter enters that room. You want to move toward and engage shooters.....get a lot of training and some really good insurance. Other than give the rest of us constitutional carry and dont worry about us

[StrayDog]

This event has bothered me on many levels. I’m not a novice shooter and I’ve been to several training classes but I’m by no means a Seal Team 6, Special Forces, etc., etc.,

First, I’m not sure any of the above mentioned could have ended the situation much sooner, maybe 1 or 2 seconds, but I can’t fathom the bad guy getting off at least one shot.

One thing that bothers me is that I generally carry appendix and until this event I’ve never tried to draw with my setup while seated. Now I realize how important this is - whether be at church, my office, driving my truck, etc. My setup is horrible to draw from while seated.

Any thoughts about setups for a relatively skinny guy to help drawing from the seated position?

[tvc184]

This event has bothered me on many levels. I’m not a novice shooter and I’ve been to several training classes but I’m by no means a Seal Team 6, Special Forces, etc., etc.,

First, I’m not sure any of the above mentioned could have ended the situation much sooner, maybe 1 or 2 seconds, but I can’t fathom the bad guy getting off at least one shot.

One thing that bothers me is that I generally carry appendix and until this event I’ve never tried to draw with my setup while seated. Now I realize how important this is - whether be at church, my office, driving my truck, etc. My setup is horrible to draw from while seated.

Any thoughts about setups for a relatively skinny guy to help drawing from the seated position?

I have been carrying appendix for over 36 years meaning from when I was in very good shape until now when.... well, not so good shape. I have never had an issue drawing and it was easier the less I weighed.

I am not sure how you have it positioned to make it difficult. How deep, any cant, any releases on the holster, etc.

[Hooverfb]

This event has bothered me on many levels. I’m not a novice shooter and I’ve been to several training classes but I’m by no means a Seal Team 6, Special Forces, etc., etc.,

First, I’m not sure any of the above mentioned could have ended the situation much sooner, maybe 1 or 2 seconds, but I can’t fathom the bad guy getting off at least one shot.

One thing that bothers me is that I generally carry appendix and until this event I’ve never tried to draw with my setup while seated. Now I realize how important this is - whether be at church, my office, driving my truck, etc. My setup is horrible to draw from while seated.

Any thoughts about setups for a relatively skinny guy to help drawing from the seated position?

Personally, I dont like appendix carry. Theres too many situations that make that a poor draw position. Especially close quarters, your bringing your arm closer to the front of you where if anyone were to react, could be stopped easier than arm at your side to draw. I still think a hip to slightly behind hip with the right cant for the firearm is the best place to have it. Doesnt work as well with modern skin tight clothes, but can adjust clothing and I'd say it's worth it.

[tradtiger]

What is the expectation of the armed citizen? Is it that they will confront a shooter or is it that you use it only if confronted by the shooter?
Example: Your in a walmart and hear shots. Do you move toward the shots or do you look for an escape route?
If i am carrying i am moving toward an escape route and will only pull my weapon out when i actually see the shooter and he is in proximity to me. I have never had the expectation that CHL holders are to move toward the offender. I think training to intentionally engage a shooter ( move toward the shooter like a police officer would) is much different than training or practice for self defense. Someone who just wants a fighting chance at survival just needs to know how to operate the weapon because the target is going to be pretty close. When i think of armed teachers i dont see 10 teachers running down the halls looking to confront the shooter. I see 1-2 doing that and the rest sheltered in their rooms with the kids and only using the gun if the shooter enters that room. There is no danger to the kids if that teacher has minimal training or just practice at home. They will all be dead regardless if the shooter enters that room. You want to move toward and engage shooters.....get a lot of training and some really good insurance. Other than give the rest of us constitutional carry and dont worry about us

Excellent analysis of the varying levels of response of each individual. Self-defense can be just that. No one has to be a hero. In the church case, God placed exactly the right person at the right time with the right level of training and skill to save an untold number of lives. The others following up and moving in are also heroes.

For school classrooms, you're also correct: a teacher with a gun, ready to defend his or her immediate area -- classroom -- is 100 percent more defense capability than not having a weapon. There should be no expectation of them to go Rambo on tracking down a shooter down the hall. Some may be trained and inclined to take the more aggressive path. Their choice. In either case, some defense capability is better than none.

[StrayDog]

I am not sure how you have it positioned to make it difficult. How deep, any cant, any releases on the holster, etc.

Thanks, I’ll look at these factors so maybe I just need to make some adjustments. I also probably need to address my waist size a little too ☺️.

[StrayDog]

Personally, I dont like appendix carry. Theres too many situations that make that a poor draw position. Especially close quarters, your bringing your arm closer to the front of you where if anyone were to react, could be stopped easier than arm at your side to draw. I still think a hip to slightly behind hip with the right cant for the firearm is the best place to have it. Doesnt work as well with modern skin tight clothes, but can adjust clothing and I'd say it's worth it.

I agree with some of you reasoning but have different thoughts also. Distance saves lives when it comes to knuckles, knives, and projectiles. Someone I don’t trust gets close to me, I cover my weapons and turn my body. Basically, in fractions of a second I can move my weapon to a 6 or 3 o’clock position. To me, that’s a null benefit.

However, I’m rethinking the speed aspect of the 3:30-5 o’clock carry during various seated, standing, kneeling, etc. scenarios.

This is all just a reminder to never be complacent.

[flywise]

Excellent analysis of the varying levels of response of each individual. Self-defense can be just that. No one has to be a hero. In the church case, God placed exactly the right person at the right time with the right level of training and skill to save an untold number of lives. The others following up and moving in are also heroes.

For school classrooms, you're also correct: a teacher with a gun, ready to defend his or her immediate area -- classroom -- is 100 percent more defense capability than not having a weapon. There should be no expectation of them to go Rambo on tracking down a shooter down the hall. Some may be trained and inclined to take the more aggressive path. Their choice. In either case, some defense capability is better than none.

I think that a lot of people for what ever reason think carrying a gun means you respond to threats in an offensive manner. Not sure why that is but its the reason people think that if your going to carry you need police like training. Like i mentioned, Teachers using as a last ditch defense, same thing for the office worker, or mom in the mall. I dont see them taking shots at a shooter 40 yds away or even 20. More like 10 or 30 feet. Those folks at the church were excellent and of course hero's. But had there just been 5 folks with guns who knew how to use them but with no training maybe a few more might have died but still no where near as many had non of them been armed. The constitution says to not be infringed but unfortunately my right has and continues to be infringed and a whole lot of folks seem to think thats ok

[tvc184]

What is the expectation of the armed citizen? Is it that they will confront a shooter or is it that you use it only if confronted by the shooter?
Example: Your in a walmart and hear shots. Do you move toward the shots or do you look for an escape route?
If i am carrying i am moving toward an escape route and will only pull my weapon out when i actually see the shooter and he is in proximity to me. I have never had the expectation that CHL holders are to move toward the offender. I think training to intentionally engage a shooter (move toward the shooter like a police officer would) is much different than training or practice for self defense. Someone who just wants a fighting chance at survival just needs to know how to operate the weapon because the target is going to be pretty close. When i think of armed teachers i dont see 10 teachers running down the halls looking to confront the shooter. I see 1-2 doing that and the rest sheltered in their rooms with the kids and only using the gun if the shooter enters that room. There is no danger to the kids if that teacher has minimal training or just practice at home. They will all be dead regardless if the shooter enters that room. You want to move toward and engage shooters.....get a lot of training and some really good insurance. Other than give the rest of us constitutional carry and dont worry about us

That is what I talked about earlier in the thread about playing what if. What if I was with my family at the mall and heard shots fired? Without going any further my response will be to move rapidly away from the gunshots and out of the mall and get into your car and leave. You can see videos of shots being fired at a location and you can tell that many people have no clue what to do. Many just freeze or try looking around to decide what they are going to do next. Like I said before, that is a bad time to start thinking of things when adrenaline is squirting out the top of your head.

It is my belief that if you think of things ahead of time, you will more likely respond quickly when something does happen. Physical practice is great but mental practice maybe more important and especially true if you’re not going to attack but merely survive.

They teach a class on active shooters call run, hide, fight although I think they have change the terminology to avoid, deny, defend. I know that some professionals don’t like that program but I think it is a good start. To make it short it means if you can escape, do so. If you cannot escape try to hide where you will not be found. If push comes to shove and you have no other option, attack the attacker preferably from a hidden spot.

But whether you go to a class or not, it takes a process going through it mentally. I have seen enough police videos of actual incidents and seeing some of the police survivors talk on camera to know that no matter what you were going to do, it would likely come out better if you think about it before hand. I have seen the videos where you can tell that the officer hesitated not because he is not trained because he has not thought of what to do. As I was taught in police survival classes, the body will not go where the mind has not previously gone. If you have thought about it beforehand then you’ll likely act quickly. If you have not thought about that scenario you would hesitate while your mind plays out your options. This might only take two or three seconds however that is two or three seconds that might cost you.

My best friend at work and I patrolled together for several years, were in Detectives together and routinely worked a housing project for security. We discussed and played out what we would do and the signals we would give if one of us was taken hostage. We also went over regular shooting incident scenarios and also trained at the gun range on addressing threats when we did not know until the last second which direction the threat would come from. We practiced drawing and engaging the target as we were moving but without knowing which way to move or engage until one of us was shout from behind what direction the threat was coming from. We did that with live fire on actual targets and varying timeframe where we’ve never really knew when or where the threat was coming from.

The main point of that is, he has shot and killed two people in the line of duty. On the last one about four years ago, I saw him about two hours after the shooting. Before I could open my mouth he looked at me and said, I did exactly what you and I trained to do. It was an instantaneous response and he told me without training like we did then it would likely not have come out the same. It was not the shooting skills which he has but the speed at which he realized the threat and moved to counteract it. He got off seven rounds in slightly over two seconds with two clear pauses in his shot string. I told him that he was probably reacquiring his front side and he said yes. When he would see the front side flashing front of his eyes, he would squeeze off a couple of rounds. The pauses were only about a 1/4 second but are very discernible on the video.

The whole point I have been trying to get at is to think about it before it ever happens. Hopefully it never will. For a very unfortunate few however, it will happen and thinking about it before is a lot better than thinking about it when shots are flying. From my experience going through scenarios about what if helps you react more quickly even if you do no physical training.

In my opinion