Deer University - Culling

[trophy8]

I’d be willing to bet if you flew it your results would be different.

It’s Mason county. You can see a dang thing flying. Im not sure why it’s hard for some of you to comprehend a high buck to doe ration.

[Patton]

I'd never shoot a deer if I had to wait for any one.of them to reach 5,6,7. Never going to see one that old.
I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of deer leases are less than 500 acres and low fenced and the vast majority of them would never see a 6-7 y/o even if they really tried

The property I mentioned previously is low fence, 580 acres surrounded by small properties and 2 similar sized neighbors. With supplemental feeding we keep deer around and even have deer in the post-mature age class. If you don’t wait for them to get old, it’s gauranteed you won’t shoot an old deer.

[flywise]

The property I mentioned previously is low fence, 580 acres surrounded by small properties and 2 similar sized neighbors. With supplemental feeding we keep deer around and even have deer in the post-mature age class. If you don’t wait for them to get old, it’s gauranteed you won’t shoot an old deer.

Your fortunate
I've been hunting the same 400 ac for 28 years, probably have not killed 20 bucks off of it in that time....( alll hunters combined) and I guarentee I have never seen a buck I thought was over 5, never seen a buck more than 3 years in a row . It is what it is.

[TXDUCKCUTTER]

I've read more than a few times on this thread that there isn't data to benefit culling for genetics.We may need to let the Highfenced deer breeders know that they should be keeping the 200" breeders over the 400" breeders.

[JonW]

I've read more than a few times on this thread that there isn't data to benefit culling for genetics.We may need to let the Highfenced deer breeders know that they should be keeping the 200" breeders over the 400" breeders.

I don't think anyone in the thread won't acknowledge breeding operations or even controlled high-fences environment. The discussion is about whether or not it works in the General deer population.




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[txwhitetail]

The discussion isn't whether "culling" itself works or not. Culling for a certain trait/outcome definitely works within any controlled group of animals. Whether you control the outside influences is where the questions are.

I personally need to take mouths and those at the bottom end of the scale get taken.

It is interesting to me some on here that claim to be heavily managing deer will keep deer lets say that have no brows, main frame 6s, 8s with weak 4s, etc to 6 years old to "see what happens". Its pretty obvious by 4 if the deer is going to be in the lower end of the age class. Dang sure by 5 at the latest.

[Aggie PhD]

I've read more than a few times on this thread that there isn't data to benefit culling for genetics.We may need to let the Highfenced deer breeders know that they should be keeping the 200" breeders over the 400" breeders.

You need to brush up on your understanding of population genetics versus animal breeding.

[TXDUCKCUTTER]

You need to brush up on your understanding of population genetics versus animal breeding.

Maybe so ,but convince me that shooting inferior 4yr old 6pts or whatever obvious inferior deer rather than a 4yr old 160" isn't somewhat beneficial.In that it prevents those genes from getting passed to either sex,and over a period of time with a balanced herd isn't beneficial..

I know High fence Operations are a lot more controlled and I see first hand the results.But I wont be convinced that a well managed piece of free range property wont benefit somewhat from the same types of selections.Eventually you will still turn your does genetics around as well and eliminate doubt in that half of the breedings.

I don't know how else you can explain the difference in success from one free range Property to another when its very apparent from first hand experience.

[Mexico]

Maybe so ,but convince me that shooting inferior 4yr old 6pts or whatever obvious inferior deer rather than a 4yr old 160" isn't somewhat beneficial.In that it prevents those genes from getting passed to either sex,and over a period of time with a balanced herd isn't beneficial..



I know High fence Operations are a lot more controlled and I see first hand the results.But I wont be convinced that a well managed piece of free range property wont benefit somewhat from the same types of selections.Eventually you will still turn your does genetics around as well and eliminate doubt in that half of the breedings.



I don't know how else you can explain the difference in success from one free range Property to another when its very apparent from first hand experience.

You cannot control an uncontrollable environment. Free range is exactly that, and you cannot stop thousands of years of evolution with a bullet.
You can however sway it slightly one way or another, in a controlled environment aka high fence... or with controlled genetic influence aka introduced genetics. Other wise you're pissing in the wind and lying to yourself.

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[88 Bound]

Your fortunate
I've been hunting the same 400 ac for 28 years, probably have not killed 20 bucks off of it in that time....( alll hunters combined) and I guarentee I have never seen a buck I thought was over 5, never seen a buck more than 3 years in a row . It is what it is.

I shared your mentality forever. I finally let a few nice bucks walk just for the heck of it a few years ago. Just to see what would happen. Now they are pushing 6 and my own lease members would shoot these bucks if they saw them. I honestly thought 1 or two were going to die this year. They didn't.

I share Patton's mentality, and I'm curious to hear about your feeding program and how much you pressure your deer during the season. We feed the snot out of our bucks and we keep the pressure low in our areas. The guys that hunt 1/2 mile from us that don't do the same never have and never do see the bucks that we are letting walk. I understand that each situation is different but this has worked magic for us.

Edit: It may have to do with the terrain on your land also. Is it brushy, open, have cattle, etc?

[El General]

Maybe so ,but convince me that shooting inferior 4yr old 6pts or whatever obvious inferior deer rather than a 4yr old 160" isn't somewhat beneficial.In that it prevents those genes from getting passed to either sex,and over a period of time with a balanced herd isn't beneficial..

I know High fence Operations are a lot more controlled and I see first hand the results.But I wont be convinced that a well managed piece of free range property wont benefit somewhat from the same types of selections.Eventually you will still turn your does genetics around as well and eliminate doubt in that half of the breedings.

I don't know how else you can explain the difference in success from one free range Property to another when its very apparent from first hand experience.

That four year old has already bred. It also has brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, and parents likely still running around on the landscape.

You also can't conclude that that small racked 4 year old six point is that size solely due to genetics. There are many other factors that go into antler size.

[Aggie PhD]

Maybe so ,but convince me that shooting inferior 4yr old 6pts or whatever obvious inferior deer rather than a 4yr old 160" isn't somewhat beneficial.In that it prevents those genes from getting passed to either sex,and over a period of time with a balanced herd isn't beneficial..

I know High fence Operations are a lot more controlled and I see first hand the results.But I wont be convinced that a well managed piece of free range property wont benefit somewhat from the same types of selections.Eventually you will still turn your does genetics around as well and eliminate doubt in that half of the breedings.

I don't know how else you can explain the difference in success from one free range Property to another when its very apparent from first hand experience.

Ok.
I will start with something that I wrote for members of my lease several years ago

In an effort to explain whether culling can alter the genetics of a wild population, I wanted to explain a little about selection and how it works in a wild population. Although it may not appear to be, the example I present is an over simplified model. The actual biology of a natural population is a lot more complex. I am using gene and allele interchangeably to eliminate some of the genetic jargon.
Selecting for or against antler traits in a wild population will not reduce or eliminate a gene(s) from the population. Since antlers are only exhibited on half of the population, selection for/against the characteristic is only occurring on 50% of the population (assuming a 1:1 buck:doe ratio, the percentage is actually less when there are more does). Let’s assume that the deer population is 200, the frequency of a gene that is to be selected for/against is around 10%, the characteristic is easy to identify and there are only 2 genes. The actual population size is actually a lot higher, the gene frequency is probably lower, the trait is not displayed the same in all individuals, and there are probably 10 plus genes in a population. In addition, the development of antlers is influenced by a lot of genes, and not just one gene. The more genes that contribute to a trait, the more complex the problem becomes.
If this is the case, there are around 40 individuals (20 bucks and 20 does) per year that carry the allele (I’ll spare you the mathematical calculation on why it isn’t just 10% of 200 or 20). Annually, at least 20 individuals (does) are carrying the gene, but you can’t select against the trait because they do not produce antlers. This leaves 20 individuals that are male and carrying the gene that you desire to remove. In a given year, let’s assume that one can do a good job of culling the gene in question, and you remove 15 of the 20 individuals. One can assume that you also culled at least 10 other bucks, and 30 does. Of the does that were harvested 10% of the does contained the gene in question. After culling you would have a total of 32 deer that have the gene and 113 deer that do not carry the gene in the population after a yearly harvest. This leaves 32 non-favorable genes and 290 total genes in the population. Each individual carries two genes (145 individuals x 2 alleles). To calculate the gene frequency after harvest divide 32 by 290, this equals .11 or 11%. Although one attempted to selectively remove an unfavorable gene from the population, the end result is that the gene frequency actually remained the same. Several of the assumptions that I made are not realistic regarding a low-fenced population (i.e. population size, number of genes, , etc).
Antler characteristics are a phenotypic characteristic (a characteristic you can see or measure). These traits are the result of genotype (genetics), environment, and the interaction between genotype(genetics) and environment
Phenotype = genotype + environment + geneXenviro
Since we cannot alter the gene frequencies in a low fenced natural population, let’s examine the environmental component. The environmental component is comprised primarily of age and nutrition. We can control parts of this component with supplemental protein and allowing bucks to mature. Obviously, we cannot control the amount of annual rainfall or mortality of a specific deer.
However, post-rut mortality can be minimized by supplemental feeding (and praying for rain).

[kyle1974]

some of ya'll must really like your feed salesmen

[TXDUCKCUTTER]

You cannot control an uncontrollable environment. Free range is exactly that, and you cannot stop thousands of years of evolution with a bullet.
You can however sway it slightly one way or another, in a controlled environment aka high fence... or with controlled genetic influence aka introduced genetics. Other wise you're pissing in the wind and lying to yourself.

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So if I could knowingly kill every dink 4 or 5yr old "cull" on my 5k acre lease and allow only 160" plus deer to breed for 10yrs I would see no genetic improvements in horn size?

Another 5k acre place not killing culls will have the same results as me?

I respectfully call BS ,Even a half attempt at this would make improvements as has for many many ranches for many yrs.

[flywise]

I shared your mentality forever. I finally let a few nice bucks walk just for the heck of it a few years ago. Just to see what would happen. Now they are pushing 6 and my own lease members would shoot these bucks if they saw them. I honestly thought 1 or two were going to die this year. They didn't.

I share Patton's mentality, and I'm curious to hear about your feeding program and how much you pressure your deer during the season. We feed the snot out of our bucks and we keep the pressure low in our areas. The guys that hunt 1/2 mile from us that don't do the same never have and never do see the bucks that we are letting walk. I understand that each situation is different but this has worked magic for us.

Edit: It may have to do with the terrain on your land also. Is it brushy, open, have cattle, etc?

I dont understand your comment about my mentality on the issue.
My last comment should show my mentality is to pretty much let everything walk for 28 yearsexcept maybe 1 buck a year.
My lease is rolling hills just a few miles west of Austin.....Hamilton pool area.
I have 3 year round creeks so water in never an issue, and native food sources are abundant. I do not feed and since nature does fine. 8 have no specific management plan, we just dont really shoot much. We have plenty of does and a crap ton of 115 and lower bucks. This year I saw 5 of the biggest bucks I b.c.e seen in all this time and they all walked. None were over 4.5 that I could tell and only 1 I had seen last year.