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Deer University - Culling

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    #31
    I had a 1.5 year old on my place that had uneven 4" spikes...at 3.5 he scored in the high 170s........nuff said.

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      #32
      That QDMA article was good. Several profound statements in it..
      “But the family trees revealed a bricklwall: ant- ler size was not correlated to breeding value. Therefore, you cannot predict the breeding value of a buck by looking at his antlers.”

      I am on the same train as the authors; age, nutrition and habitat. IMO no reason to shoot any buck less than 4 years old. If you don’t believe this talk to some folks in East Texas that live near the strip mines and their reclaimed land. Giant deer on that property that doesn’t get hunted. They improve their habitat and nutrition and let them grow. And they have world class deer in an area that is not known for that.

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        #33
        We have to take a certain number of bucks off of our place every year, so it just makes sense to remove the ones with little or no potential first. Will it make a difference genetically in my lifetime, maybe not, but it's definitely better than removing bucks at random.

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          #34
          Originally posted by HighwayHunter View Post
          I’d agree with that study, but if everything else is right then what’s wrong with having a 140” 8 point on your property or even a 130” 7 point, when you only have 1-3 deer over 150”


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          Becuase say you have 10 does standing there ready to breed. How many does get breed by the 130, 140 and 150" deer? If you don't have the 130 and 140 they all get breed by the 150. In this example we are talking same age class. I'm not discrediting the podcast or any research being done but I know a 3000 acre low fence place just outside of Brady that has been leased for 25 years and they cull heavily. They also shoot 160 to 170 inch deer regularly. Every few years they shoot a 180 to 190 inch deer. Not saying it's only from culling as they feed protein heavy too but there aren't a bunch smaller deer eating and breeding.

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            #35
            Good thread

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              #36
              Pretty good read I cam across whilst wasting time at work this morning.

              Should you shoot does after the rut? It’s a question I see debated on social media regularly this time of year and it’s something I’ve pondered myself. Having thoroughly examined the pros and cons, as well as my own specific circumstances, I’ve always answered with a definitive yes. If the doe...


              Seems relevant to the conversation.

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                #37
                Originally posted by HighwayHunter View Post
                Not trying to stir anything up. I believe if your management plan works for your lease then keep doing it. Just curious as to how many people don’t cull at all and have seen positive results.


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                We cull 1 spike on our lease because the biologist request it. You think "culling" one spike is going to help any lease? No.

                I don't mind taking out a spike, but its because I want to. In the name of management sake you must increase the age structure of your bucks and improve the habitat.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by lovemylegacy View Post
                  We cull 1 spike on our lease because the biologist request it. You think "culling" one spike is going to help any lease? No.



                  I don't mind taking out a spike, but its because I want to. In the name of management sake you must increase the age structure of your bucks and improve the habitat.


                  I’d agree with that whole heartedly if the biologists reasoning was that carrying capacity of bucks is high, given there’s a overall positive buck to doe ratio. Everyone’s situation is different, and I in no way am a professional. I just like to hear everyone’s opinion on the matter.


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                    #39
                    Originally posted by texas shag View Post
                    we don't consider a buck for killing until he reaches 5+. and many times, we choose the lower scoring deer in an attempt for population control more than trying to change genetics. If we can keep the competition for food down, the deer that remain should be less stressed and will hopefully continue to express their full genetic potential. This yield has led some to believe the are improving the genetic composition, which isn't really true. if they were to stop shooting these deer, allowing their mouths to impact the range conditions, they would see the average score of their top end deer drop in addition to routinely seeing these lower scoring deer they arent shooting, and it would remain that way into the future until the numbers of mouths returns to below a level that the habitat can really support without stress.

                    All that to say I dont believe culling changes the genetic profile of your ranch in a low fence setting, but if done properly it does improve your remaining deer's ability to show their full potential by lowering stress and competition.
                    Originally posted by Take Dead Aim View Post
                    Becuase say you have 10 does standing there ready to breed. How many does get breed by the 130, 140 and 150" deer? If you don't have the 130 and 140 they all get breed by the 150. In this example we are talking same age class. I'm not discrediting the podcast or any research being done but I know a 3000 acre low fence place just outside of Brady that has been leased for 25 years and they cull heavily. They also shoot 160 to 170 inch deer regularly. Every few years they shoot a 180 to 190 inch deer. Not saying it's only from culling as they feed protein heavy too but there aren't a bunch smaller deer eating and breeding.
                    2 great posts here IMO.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Take Dead Aim View Post
                      Becuase say you have 10 does standing there ready to breed. How many does get breed by the 130, 140 and 150" deer? If you don't have the 130 and 140 they all get breed by the 150. In this example we are talking same age class. I'm not discrediting the podcast or any research being done but I know a 3000 acre low fence place just outside of Brady that has been leased for 25 years and they cull heavily. They also shoot 160 to 170 inch deer regularly. Every few years they shoot a 180 to 190 inch deer. Not saying it's only from culling as they feed protein heavy too but there aren't a bunch smaller deer eating and breeding.


                      Does have also been known to disperse, as bucks will during the rut, to find more readily available mates. If you have 10 does ready to breed and only one big mature buck there’s a good chance he won’t breed all of those does. Even if he does, the smaller bucks will still get a piece of that action in which case who knows what deer will sire the off spring.


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                        #41
                        Originally posted by AntlerCollector View Post
                        I believe culling works 100%. Every cull buck I've killed has never bred another Doe.
                        I'd hope not, then there would be zombie deer. haha

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                          #42
                          I’ll post my anecdotal piece to clarify about where I stand on the issue.

                          I’m lucky enough to hunt a ranch in junction that’s near 5,000 acres. A close family friend owns it, it’s not leased to any hunters except us, we get to hunt for free but we can only shoot spikes and does. Since we started hunting the ranch in 2014 only two bucks have been killed, one was an 11 point completely missing his back left hoof that was one of the oldest bucks I’ve ever seen and another was an 8 point that almost looked like he has CWD he was so old and decrepit. Between the five of us, we might shoot one or two spikes a year and we only shoot spikes that look to be 3-4 year old spikes. The 2018-2019 season turned up one spike and 8 does for us. The bucks on this property are low fence and have virtually no pressure aside from our one weekend in November. We have seen bucks blow up from your typical basket rack hill country deer, to big 9 points like this one (see below). Several bucks on the property pushing 160-180” (if my field scoring is close) and we found this dead head last year, we believe he was killed in a fight. The point is, bucks left to their own devices, only keeping doe numbers in check, low fence, corn only, we have watched the bucks on this property explode. This is anecdotal and it’s the only real experience I have with a set “culling” program. Everywhere else I’ve ever hunted was a general agreement that the bucks you shoot should be wall hangers.


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                            #43
                            Originally posted by MQ32Shooter View Post
                            I hunt in an AR county. We are not allowed to cull.
                            Not true. I took out a 17.5" wide 8pt, 6.5 yrs old in an AR county last weekend and there are probably 5-6 deer on that property that are younger and significantly bigger (antler wise) that we chose to pass. Does taking out that 'cull 8' help the genetics? I wouldn't think so, but it is a mouth that doesn't have to be fed or dominate a protein feeder and helps keep the ratio where it we want it to be after taking a lot of doe this year. We prefer to let deer get to 4.5 before even being considered a 'cull', and if he is that young he better have 7pts or less and a ****ty rack. Don't shoot the big bucks until they reach 6.5
                            Last edited by Patton; 01-09-2019, 09:33 AM.

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                              #44
                              If you want bigger bucks and more of them on your place feed more and let all the bucks you have get to at least 5.5 and naturally your going to have more bigger bucks it’s because you have more mature bucks. Not because you shot some 2.5 year old 6pts are a 1.5 old spike are two .

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by HighwayHunter View Post
                                Recently the Deer University podcast posted an episode about culling. Without getting into the nuts and bolts of the discussion, the end of the conversation between the two biologists came to the conclusion that culling bucks at any age doesn’t really work. I was curious to know what y’all thought about that. The reasoning behind why it doesn’t work (outside of the biologists potentially anecdotal first hand experience on his own ranch) is that just letting bucks reach 5-7 years old will increase the overall score of bucks on your property and that not all spikes are spikes, most specifically yearling spikes. What say the green screen?


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                                Its important to note that they said culling does not work on free range properties and that allowing deer to age to 6-7+ along with habitat/rainfall/range conditions were the most important factors in antler growth.

                                Its very evident that culling/selective breeding works on high fence properties because otherwise 300"+ deer wouldn't exist.

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