Elk Hunters, are tags to cheap?

[wytex]

Difficult proposition to solve, and there is really no good solution as someone is going to lose. Elk are stessed to the point I think they are on a downward trend from the population surveys I see that Colorado puts out every few years. Calf Recruitment, Wolves, Bears, Cats, Overall Herd Population, Winter Forage, Crop Damage, etc.

That is why there is a push by some residents there to end OTC elk.
Wyoming has OTC for residents only and it works quite well due to our population of hunters. Colorado may well benefit from going draw only for NR and OTC for residents just see if it helps with crowding and elk numbers.
Unfortunately what is best for the elk herds may not be favorable to NR hunters as all states will put their resident hunters first.

[Wits_End]

They want to change the system to price out those with lower means than them because they're priced out of the current pay to play system by those with higher means than them.

I can't say I agree or disagree with it, more curious of the entire situation than anything. I can't quite understand the comment about "changing the system" in regards to simply increasing the prices. What about the system is being changed? Same system, increased price. There were comments about a different system, but that doesn't align with your comments.

Do you advocate for decreasing tags across the board for both Res and Nonres to increase the numbers of draw applicants, to increase "perception of opportunity" for those that can't afford now? What if they dropped the tag cost to $5/$50?

[justletmein]

I can't say I agree or disagree with it, more curious of the entire situation than anything. I can't quite understand the comment about "changing the system" in regards to simply increasing the prices. What about the system is being changed? Same system, increased price. There were comments about a different system, but that doesn't align with your comments.

Do you advocate for decreasing tags across the board for both Res and Nonres to increase the numbers of draw applicants, to increase "perception of opportunity" for those that can't afford now? What if they dropped the tag cost to $5/$50?

Raising tag prices to price out competition is changing the system in effect because it's converting it to a pay-to-play system, which as was pointed out in the reply I quoted that system already exists but it's above the level of means for those advocating for a lower threshold pay-to-play system that they can afford.

Tag allocation needs to be about Elk herd goals, not hunter opportunity. If I were to advocate anything I'd say set tag allocation appropriately and go 100% random draw everywhere. Make it fair for everyone. *edit* With separate random pools for appropriate R and NR allocation of course.

[warrenm0624]

Tradbows is the answer. Make the first week of archery season traditional only and OTC at the current price. Then allow wheel bows (no crossguns) the second and third week with a draw. Now nothing dies in the first week but opportunity to be in the woods drastically increases if you want to learn to shoot a single string bow.

[WRasco]

Interesting discussion. I will place my votes and continue to read responses.

Cost - No need to artificially increase the cost. It will continue to increase on its own
Special interest - I do not mind the lottery systems but they need to be fair to all. No outfitter, of landowner loopholes. If they want/need to purchase these they should be in separated pools.
Herd management via restricting hunting - This is the biggest lie of all. When did any of the states in this discussion become a high fence leases. More elk are killed by Wolves, Bears, Cats, Cars, Ranchers & Weather than hunters each year.

For the record I have enjoyed the experience of bow hunting elk in New Mexico 1980's, Colorado 1980's & 2014-2020 and Montana 1995-96. Though I have never killed an elk with a bow some of the guys I have hunted with did. I enjoyed every hunt.

[WItoTX]

There isn't an easy solution, but here is mine. Stop this designation of NR vs resident. I should have just as much of a chance of drawing a tag as any resident in any state I want to hunt. Especially considering I pay substantially more than any resident does for tags. And while we are at it, get rid of the point system. It's already gotten out of control, and is going to continue to get worse. And if we HAVE TO keep the point system, let's make some very select units points only (Like Unit 1 in CO).

NR's should definitely pay more. It's the cost of not living in the state but reaping its rewards. I get that. But they should have at least an equal chance of drawing a tag as a resident.

AND none of this takes into account the game management by consensus route that so many western states now use (CO with bears for example). Let the biologists determine how many elk should be in a stand of trees, how many, if any, predators should be there, and stop allowing the Karen's and Kyle's of the world, who have never held a bow (Much less go to a nation forest) get a say in what does and doesn't get killed.

[DRT]

Hunting is already becoming a privileged peoples activity.
Personally I think it will collapse a lot sooner than most think. The number of people involved for the resource available has and will continue to increase and there is enough disposable income for enough people to allow pricing to soar.
Social media has just expanded the number of people who are hunting for the ego trip, not for the meat in their freezer to the point where the majority of those who are mainly freezer fillers are priced out as they won't spend a stupid amount of money to hunt elk. When you buy a tag for hundreds of dollars, use a large portion if your annual vacation to go and spend a significant amount of your family budget to go do it and see plenty of hunters but not game it becomes time to reassess how you spend those resources.
For me it was easy. Good deer leases here at home and then land of my own here and in Missouri.
Yeah it's just deer and pigs. But I see game, have a reasonable chance at success and unwanted hunters aren't walking by me.

The more people are willing to spend the higher the resources will go up in price. Like a cattleman overgrazing land, a day lease operator selling more hunts than he has deer or an airline selling more tickets than they have seats. At some point it's gonna leave someone short changed, hungry or left behind.
Just part of the evil that men do.

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[BuckSmasher]

Some of you are getting bogged down in elk herd health tag allocation etc. I am asking are we ok with cheaper tags we cant get or would we rather have more expensive ones that are availablle for purchase.

Here are the facts:
- The new year is less than two weeks old.
- Tags are not available for non point holders in three of the biggest elk population states, WY, MT, ID. Forget NM, AZ, UT. They have been tight draws forever. That leaves VERY low success hunts in Oregon and CO.
- This wasnt the case 7 or 8 years ago.
- The nation has not seen a huge surge in hunter recruitment or a drastic decline in available elk tags.
-Elk hunting is not now, or in some distant halcyon past a cheap 'opportunity' hunt. Roughly as many whitetail deer were shot in Texas last season as elk that EXIST in North America.

As someone that is a passionate elk hunter and saw the writing on the wall I moved to ID because I could. Elk tags weighed heavily in our decision. If the status quo continues you may be able to "afford" an elk tag but you will not be able to buy one. I lived and hunted in Texas for 37 years, I know what yall are paying for deer leases. You are swallowing flies and choking on gnats.



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[justletmein]

Some of you are getting bogged down in elk herd health tag allocation etc. I am asking are we ok with cheaper tags we cant get or would we rather have more expensive ones that we can't afford.

fify

[wytex]

Sorry but I can not wrap my head around the" I should have as much chance as a resident to draw tags in their state." It is the states wildlife, not yours .

And Wyoming does have a draw for those with 0PP , the random draw. 25 % of the elk licenses allocated by statute are for a random draw that all have the same chance in. Your application goes right into it if you don't draw in the PP pool.

[WItoTX]

Some of you are getting bogged down in elk herd health tag allocation etc. I am asking are we ok with cheaper tags we cant get or would we rather have more expensive ones that are availablle for purchase.

Here are the facts:
- The new year is less than two weeks old.
- Tags are not available for non point holders in three of the biggest elk population states, WY, MT, ID. Forget NM, AZ, UT. They have been tight draws forever. That leaves VERY low success hunts in Oregon and CO.
- This wasnt the case 7 or 8 years ago.
- The nation has not seen a huge surge in hunter recruitment or a drastic decline in available elk tags.
-Elk hunting is not now, or in some distant halcyon past a cheap 'opportunity' hunt. Roughly as many whitetail deer were shot in Texas last season as elk that EXIST in North America.

As someone that is a passionate elk hunter and saw the writing on the wall I moved to ID because I could. Elk tags weighed heavily in our decision. If the status quo continues you may be able to "afford" an elk tag but you will not be able to buy one. I lived and hunted in Texas for 37 years, I know what yall are paying for deer leases. You are swallowing flies and choking on gnats.



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I haven't verified your numbers, but CO is the biggest elk population state. By a significant margin. I know of at least one unit in MT I can draw without points. I did in 2021. ID has become a "just in case" state for most hunters who can't draw their #1 spot this year which is why I think it sold out so quickly the last two years. Where did you find the NR tags for non-point holders are already sold out in WY and MT? I don't think we can apply in either state yet (Except maybe Wyoming? I only apply for points there so Oct is my date)

Regardless of my opinion on the foregoing items (Because it's just an opinion based on my anecdotal conversations and tag drawing experiences), we can't only speculate on one variable, while not considering the others. Lot's of biologists out there right now have been saying elk have been over populated for years thanks to lack of wolves, bears, lions, etc...Those same biologists say Mule Deer habitat is getting worse and worse each year. And the population numbers of deer correspond to that. Or we can use the sage grouse. Same issue. So how can we honestly speculate that prices could be the problem?

The answer is A) get the right policy regarding wildlife management. Just about every state is going the wrong way on this one. Only once that is achieved, change the tags to charge residents more, and give them the same amount of opportunity as non-residents to draw tags. Not this 90% goes to residents, 10% go to NR's.

[WRasco]

Sorry but I can not wrap my head around the" I should have as much chance as a resident to draw tags in their state." It is the states wildlife, not yours .

And Wyoming does have a draw for those with 0PP , the random draw. 25 % of the elk licenses allocated by statute are for a random draw that all have the same chance in. Your application goes right into it if you don't draw in the PP pool.

Well the op's logic should work here. If Residence tags where raised to the price of an NR tag, fewer people would hunt. Which would make it better for those of us that continued to apply.

[Arrowslinger1]

I’m barely rich enough to afford a torch and pitchfork, but I’ve got them both ready after reading this.

can I borrow yours when you're done! lol

[Arrowslinger1]

And high taxes did so much to restrict the sales of cigarettes Right? It just made a lot more money for the already overzealous Govt. I guess charging high taxes for ammo will save lives that are supposed to matter but for some reason they cant stop shooting each other! I dont see the end result being what the "Greater Gooders" plan it to be! Sorry Im not trying to be confrontational, but this thread is a JOKE! LOL

[BuckSmasher]

Here is what it cost me for 2022 non-resident Idaho tags to hunt elk this year. $1000



Combination hunting/fishing license $274

Archery Permit $82

Elk tag $652



Plus another $500 for bear/wolf/cougar tags.

Bear/wolf/cougar should have been $5 a piece. There is your cheap opportunity to get in the mountains!

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