Large primer-small primer .308 help

[BLACKFINTURKEY]

Alright guys, I’ve ran into some interesting issues regarding my handloads for my .308.

So I’ve been loading for this rifle a bit lately and had some extraordinary loads using imr4064, 178gr BTHP, and Winchester lr primers all in Lapua, Remington and fc brass. The group was printing a constant of .5-.75moa at 100 yards, velocity was 2749 but with high sd and es.

I pulled the trigger on some starline match small rifle primer .308 brass.
Doing my ladder test with the new brass I loaded first the same weight as my standard load using BR4 primers and cci450 magnums but my velocity was approx 150-200fps lower, but the es and sds were single digit or no more than 12-15. With that my groups just weren’t acceptable. So I worked a ladder test using BR4s from 43-45grs of powder and still no good groups best was probably just at an inch.

So what gives? It could be me but I felt pretty good about my shots and called any I know were pulled. Anyone have a recommendation I’m going to re work the load maybe using standard small rifle primers to see if that helps.

[xman59]

Alright guys, I’ve ran into some interesting issues regarding my handloads for my .308.

So I’ve been loading for this rifle a bit lately and had some extraordinary loads using imr4064, 178gr BTHP, and Winchester lr primers all in Lapua, Remington and fc brass. The group was printing a constant of .5-.75moa at 100 yards, velocity was 2749 but with high sd and es.

I pulled the trigger on some starline match small rifle primer .308 brass.
Doing my ladder test with the new brass I loaded first the same weight as my standard load using BR4 primers and cci450 magnums but my velocity was approx 150-200fps lower, but the es and sds were single digit or no more than 12-15. With that my groups just weren’t acceptable. So I worked a ladder test using BR4s from 43-45grs of powder and still no good groups best was probably just at an inch.

So what gives? It could be me but I felt pretty good about my shots and called any I know were pulled. Anyone have a recommendation I’m going to re work the load maybe using standard small rifle primers to see if that helps.

the small primer is reducing the flash needed to get a quick and clean powder burn

[Cajun Blake]

Are you working up loads for hunting or long range shooting/targets ?

IMO, your trying to hard to re-invent the wheel. If I were in your shoes, I'd ditch the Starline sm. primer brass.

Start with the best of the best and go from there, these are all proven for superior accuracy

Lapua brass - uniform the primer pockets and debur the flash holes
Vihtavhuori powder - N140 or N150
Berger bullets - 168 gr - 175 gr
Fed Gold Medal Match LR primers

[BLACKFINTURKEY]

Are you working up loads for hunting or long range shooting/targets ?

IMO, your trying to hard to re-invent the wheel. If I were in your shoes, I'd ditch the Starline sm. primer brass.

Start with the best of the best and go from there, these are all proven for superior accuracy

Lapua brass - uniform the primer pockets and debur the flash holes
Vihtavhuori powder - N140 or N150
Berger bullets - 168 gr - 175 gr
Fed Gold Medal Match LR primers

The loads I’m developing are for long range shooting.

Unfortunately my wallet doesn’t allow for “the best” of anything usually so I try and find middle ground.

I was using standard Lapua but it was at the end of its life, and I need 250 rounds to shoot prs matches that’s why I went with the starline.

I’ll take a look at the n140-150 powder but I’ve had great results and velocity with 4064. How different are the burn rates?

As far as bullets go I prefer to stick to hornady simply because of the cost to results I’ve personally had with them. 20$ a box difference will keep me behind the gun a lot more.

I know all these products may not be gold standard but my previous load using these components yielded 1/2-3/4moa at 100 and some really good results to 750 but all my brass is wore out.

[Radar]

Midway has Lapua brass on sale for 76.00 a 100.

I believe the Starline brass you have would need to be sized, trimmed and deburred, before you weight sort them. Its hunting brass, so you might have to buy 500 to get 300 match brass. You may have to try several primer brands on the Starline.

I have wasted hours of my life trying to make match brass. Lol

Does the neck tension all feel the same when you are seating bullets?

[BLACKFINTURKEY]

Midway has Lapua brass on sale for 76.00 a 100.

I believe the Starline brass you have would need to be sized, trimmed and deburred, before you weight sort them. Its hunting brass, so you might have to buy 500 to get 300 match brass. You may have to try several primer brands on the Starline.

I have wasted hours of my life trying to make match brass. Lol

Does the neck tension all feel the same when you are seating bullets?

I agree the starline was a a good bit of chamfering and debuting but all the weights were very close. Neck tension felt very good with the starline, honestly my sds and es are WAY lower using starline than Lapua, but there are several factors that play into that possible.

[Radar]

I re read your initial post, I dont think switching primer brands is going to give you 150 fps faster. You dont live far from me and I can give you some RP 7/12 primers and WSR primers if you like.

Not sure why you lost that much velocity or why the accuracy fell off with a lower SD and ES. Are you using bushing dies?

[BLACKFINTURKEY]

I re read your initial post, I dont think switching primer brands is going to give you 150 fps faster. You dont live far from me and I can give you some RP 7/12 primers and WSR primers if you like.

Not sure why you lost that much velocity or why the accuracy fell off with a lower SD and ES. Are you using bushing dies?

No currently I’m using standard fl dies but plan on getting bushing dies soon. I have wsr primers just can’t find any 71/2s around where do you get them?

[RifleBowPistol]

I would stick with the magnum small rifle primers. That's a lot of powered for a standard small rifle primer.
Try some ball powders. I used to load a lot of 308, 7mm-08 and 22-250. I found that Hodgens 414, BL-C, BL-C(2), were very good powders for the 22-250 and 308. Both the 308 and the 22-250 I was shooting, back then were both stock Remington 700s, with only trigger work and bedding jobs. I was able to get .100" CTC five shot groups all the time with both rifles. I found years ago, a lot of short action cases work very well with ball powders. In the 308, I was shooting 165 gr. and 168 gr. bullets, I never shot anything any heavier out of a 308, not sure how well the heavier bullets work with ball powders.

If you spend enough time being meticulous on your loads, you should get noticeably better accuracy. I would always start with a lot of brass. Then resize, deprime and clean all of the brass. Then trim all of the cases to the same length. Then I would weigh each case and put the weight of each case on the case. Then organize the cases by weight. I would usually load 50 rounds for a gun. I would try to find a range of case weight, that had the most cases, with the least amount of weight variation. All of the same brand and lot. I would do this with all of my cases, I would separate them by brand first, then weight. Then find the most cases, with the least amount of weight variation.

Then when I am looking for powder charges, I look for power charges that come as close to completely filling the case as possible, that will result in more consistent burn, which will result in more consistent pressures and velocities and accuracy. I could usually get my velocity variation down to 10 fps or less, between shots. My favorite loads would usually be around 5 fps variation.

Then find some bullets that match up to the rifling rate of twist your gun has. Actually you should do this before, picking powders. Then work on finding out what your gun likes for distance off of the rifling lands. I found usually .030" to .050", was usually best.

My way of selecting the cases seems to work pretty good. I can usually get a mostly stock quality rifle to shoot with some expensive custom rifles. I think too many guys spend too much money on their rifles and then don't spend the time on the ammo, thinking that after they spent so much on the rifle it will get them the best results. I have gotten many mostly stock older 700s to shoot very well. Not sure I could have been able to shoot a very expensive custom built rifle any better. Don't get me wrong, I love very well done custom rifles. I used to spend a decent amount of money on custom rifles. Then I started shooting 700s and kept working with them to see what I could get them to do. I came to the conclusion, that a 700 with some trigger work and possible a bedding job, if it's not a Sendero, will shoot as good as I am capable of shooting.
Just some ideas on things you might try to improve your loads. If you got better results with the large rifle primers, I would probably go back to them. When I was loading for 308s, I had nothing but cases with large rifle primers. With the heavy bullets you are using, the small rifle primers might not be a good idea. I know they make other short action cases with small rifle primer pockets, but from what I have seen, it is done so you can bump the pressures of the round. I have some small rifle primer 6.5 Creedmoor cases, from what I understand, you can get a decent increase in velocity, by being able to bump the pressures. I would not be trying that with bullets as heavy as you are using.
I have a wildcat round that also uses cases with small rifle primers. Most of the reason, they picked that case, was so they could bump the pressures. That round is based off of a 6.5X47 Lapua case. Because of the results I have gotten from that round, I decided to try some small rifle primer Lapua, Creedmoor cases. I have not loaded the Creedmoor yet. I plan on buying some Creedmoor cases with large rifle primer pockets also, so I can see how they compare. I have not gotten there yet, been way too busy to shoot any of my guns for a while now.

Also, I know there are a lot of new powders out, I have not loaded any 308 in years. But I have tried multiple of the newer powders that are out, some of the new stuff, is very impressive. I have gotten to where I mostly load Hodgens powders. I use some Winchester on occasions and sometimes I still load some IMR powders. Most of what I load now days, is short action, I use ball powders in almost all of my short action loads. I know there are a lot of die hard IMR powder users. I started out with IMR powders, used them exclusively for many years, then started trying all types of other powders and found I like Reloader for my long action magnum loads, mostly Hodgens powders for my revolver loads and short action rifle loads. But I do have multiple loads that use Winchester powders and some that use IMR. Everybody does things different.

[BLACKFINTURKEY]

I would stick with the magnum small rifle primers. That's a lot of powered for a standard small rifle primer.
Try some ball powders. I used to load a lot of 308, 7mm-08 and 22-250. I found that Hodgens 414, BL-C, BL-C(2), were very good powders for the 22-250 and 308. Both the 308 and the 22-250 I was shooting, back then were both stock Remington 700s, with only trigger work and bedding jobs. I was able to get .100" CTC five shot groups all the time with both rifles. I found years ago, a lot of short action cases work very well with ball powders. In the 308, I was shooting 165 gr. and 168 gr. bullets, I never shot anything any heavier out of a 308, not sure how well the heavier bullets work with ball powders.

If you spend enough time being meticulous on your loads, you should get noticeably better accuracy. I would always start with a lot of brass. Then resize, deprime and clean all of the brass. Then trim all of the cases to the same length. Then I would weigh each case and put the weight of each case on the case. Then organize the cases by weight. I would usually load 50 rounds for a gun. I would try to find a range of case weight, that had the most cases, with the least amount of weight variation. All of the same brand and lot. I would do this with all of my cases, I would separate them by brand first, then weight. Then find the most cases, with the least amount of weight variation.

Then when I am looking for powder charges, I look for power charges that come as close to completely filling the case as possible, that will result in more consistent burn, which will result in more consistent pressures and velocities and accuracy. I could usually get my velocity variation down to 10 fps or less, between shots. My favorite loads would usually be around 5 fps variation.

Then find some bullets that match up to the rifling rate of twist your gun has. Actually you should do this before, picking powders. Then work on finding out what your gun likes for distance off of the rifling lands. I found usually .030" to .050", was usually best.

My way of selecting the cases seems to work pretty good. I can usually get a mostly stock quality rifle to shoot with some expensive custom rifles. I think too many guys spend too much money on their rifles and then don't spend the time on the ammo, thinking that after they spent so much on the rifle it will get them the best results. I have gotten many mostly stock older 700s to shoot very well. Not sure I could have been able to shoot a very expensive custom built rifle any better. Don't get me wrong, I love very well done custom rifles. I used to spend a decent amount of money on custom rifles. Then I started shooting 700s and kept working with them to see what I could get them to do. I came to the conclusion, that a 700 with some trigger work and possible a bedding job, if it's not a Sendero, will shoot as good as I am capable of shooting.
Just some ideas on things you might try to improve your loads. If you got better results with the large rifle primers, I would probably go back to them. When I was loading for 308s, I had nothing but cases with large rifle primers. With the heavy bullets you are using, the small rifle primers might not be a good idea. I know they make other short action cases with small rifle primer pockets, but from what I have seen, it is done so you can bump the pressures of the round. I have some small rifle primer 6.5 Creedmoor cases, from what I understand, you can get a decent increase in velocity, by being able to bump the pressures. I would not be trying that with bullets as heavy as you are using.
I have a wildcat round that also uses cases with small rifle primers. Most of the reason, they picked that case, was so they could bump the pressures. That round is based off of a 6.5X47 Lapua case. Because of the results I have gotten from that round, I decided to try some small rifle primer Lapua, Creedmoor cases. I have not loaded the Creedmoor yet. I plan on buying some Creedmoor cases with large rifle primer pockets also, so I can see how they compare. I have not gotten there yet, been way too busy to shoot any of my guns for a while now.

Also, I know there are a lot of new powders out, I have not loaded any 308 in years. But I have tried multiple of the newer powders that are out, some of the new stuff, is very impressive. I have gotten to where I mostly load Hodgens powders. I use some Winchester on occasions and sometimes I still load some IMR powders. Most of what I load now days, is short action, I use ball powders in almost all of my short action loads. I know there are a lot of die hard IMR powder users. I started out with IMR powders, used them exclusively for many years, then started trying all types of other powders and found I like Reloader for my long action magnum loads, mostly Hodgens powders for my revolver loads and short action rifle loads. But I do have multiple loads that use Winchester powders and some that use IMR. Everybody does things different.

Thanks for the in-depth reply.

I agree with you for the most part that’s for sure and I do a lot of what you do. The only thing I might say is ball powder tends to be not as temp stable, and some of the powders you mentioned imo might be to fast for 178s, however if I can’t get this to pan back out I’ll be switching something that’s for sure.

The reason I switched to the small primer stuff was to get away from the high pressure signs I had and try to keep the high velocity I was seeming. I was pushing a 178@2750 which is pretty fast but I was seeing occasional blown primers, which I think was partly because of the amount of firings on the cases I had.

I have another batch of brass loaded ready to test if I can’t get them to group I might try a faster powder just to see, or go back to lrp cases.