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Old 07-24-2017, 11:35 AM   #1
Livin'2hunt
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Default Single-Payer in U.K. Failed a Child

In the U.K., a one year old baby named Charlie Gard is now going to die because the single-payer system would not permit the child travel to the United States for the treatment and cure awaiting his arrival. The parents had to sue Parliament in order to permit the treatment because he was locked into mandated single-payer. If Charlie would have received treatment early after diagnosis, his life could have been saved but the protracted litigation will prohibit effective treatment. This IS a death panel system. Forgive me if I don't see the upside to it.
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:44 AM   #2
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Oh someone will be along shortly to inform you of the upside..theres plenty of that on here
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Old 07-24-2017, 11:54 AM   #3
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Just sad. Prayers for that family. My real problem. ....why couldn't they let the family leave for better care??? Donations were paying for it.....not the u.k. or American taxpayers. Something don't add up!

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Old 07-24-2017, 12:11 PM   #4
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The Holocaust started from the killing of one kid that had defects
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:14 PM   #5
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The Holocaust started from the killing of one kid that had defects
Huh?


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Old 07-24-2017, 01:12 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Livin'2hunt View Post
In the U.K., a one year old baby named Charlie Gard is now going to die because the single-payer system would not permit the child travel to the United States for the treatment and cure awaiting his arrival. The parents had to sue Parliament in order to permit the treatment because he was locked into mandated single-payer. If Charlie would have received treatment early after diagnosis, his life could have been saved but the protracted litigation will prohibit effective treatment. This IS a death panel system. Forgive me if I don't see the upside to it.
While I agree that it's ridiculous that the courts should be able to tell parents they can't get experimental treatments to help their child, I should point out that there is no "cure" for encephalomyopathic MDS as it's a genetic disorder.

The experimental treatment (nucleotide bypass therapy) provides the building blocks of the genetic material that the body cannot produce due to the disorder. It does not correct the inability of the body to produce said material.

Unfortunately it's only been tested on children with the TK2 gene mutation (if you google Arturo Estopinan Jr, you'll see what a child kept alive with the treatment has to endure), whereas Charlie has a RRM2B gene mutation (which also affects his brain). So there's no certainty the treatment would have a similar effect on Charlie (conversely, maybe it might have worked better; can't draw a conclusion with no data).

Regardless, the treatment doesn't cause any problems, so it couldn't have hurt to try. I'm all for experimental medicine in such scenarios.
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
"Our son has an extremely rare disease for which there is no accepted cure, but that does not mean that this treatment would not have worked, and it certainly does not mean that this shouldn't have been tried."
Absolutely.

Quote:
Hirano came to London last week to examine Charlie along with other experts. After seeing the results of new tests, the baby's parents agreed to drop their case, meaning Charlie's life support can now be removed.
Cant imagine having to make that decision and it didn't come easily.
They fought for Charlie.
prayers sent.
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:37 PM   #8
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I look at what I would have done if I were put that position with my child. Sure, it may not work. Then again, it may. For me, it is worth the gamble. My Gubmint would have to imprison me to keep me off that airplane.
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Old 07-24-2017, 04:20 PM   #9
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Single payer worked exactly as it was designed to work. Individual decisions are severely limited if not eliminated altogether and decisions are made to the benefit of the "herd on the whole."
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Old 07-24-2017, 05:15 PM   #10
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I still don't understand why the parents couldn't take their child elsewhere for treatment??
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Old 07-24-2017, 05:26 PM   #11
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I still don't understand why the parents couldn't take their child elsewhere for treatment??


It's my understanding that unlike in the US, a child's rights/decision trump their parents in the U.K. and many other countries. Because the child could not make a decision for themselves, it was under the jurisdiction of the courts to decide on behalf of the kid. The courts believed that it was in his best interest to have life support removed hence why the parents had to file an injunction to prevent that from happening.
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Old 07-24-2017, 05:31 PM   #12
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Time was not on Charlies side, but this started last November! !! 5 weeks ago they wanted to come over the pond. The stinking courts said no......why? ??
My child, wife and I would be dead if this nation tried stopping us from searching for an answer on my own dime.....or donated funds from around the globe. Why would the government even want to intervene at all?? Just odd I tell ya!!
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I still don't understand why the parents couldn't take their child elsewhere for treatment??
I concur!

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Old 07-24-2017, 05:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Kmart49 View Post
It's my understanding that unlike in the US, a child's rights/decision trump their parents in the U.K. and many other countries. Because the child could not make a decision for themselves, it was under the jurisdiction of the courts to decide on behalf of the kid. The courts believed that it was in his best interest to have life support removed hence why the parents had to file an injunction to prevent that from happening.
Wow! If that is a fact it is clearly saying that parents don't have the ability to raise a child. Now that would be communistic at worse and socialist at best. Really sad for a nation as old as England.

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Old 07-24-2017, 05:48 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Landrover View Post
Wow! If that is a fact it is clearly saying that parents don't have the ability to raise a child. Now that would be communistic at worse and socialist at best. Really sad for a nation as old as England.

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Here are a couple screen shots of some of the basic explanations behind the law.

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Old 07-24-2017, 05:51 PM   #15
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Here are a couple screen shots of some of the basic explanations behind the law.

Like I said.......communistic in nature. I know better than you......I'm the government! !!

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Old 07-24-2017, 05:54 PM   #16
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Like I said.......communistic in nature. I know better than you......I'm the government! !!

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Couldn't agree more. I would move heaven and earth to do whatever I thought could/would help my child!
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Old 07-24-2017, 06:02 PM   #17
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Couldn't agree more. I would move heaven and earth to do whatever I thought could/would help my child!
.....and that is the bottom line!!!

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Old 07-24-2017, 06:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Landrover View Post
Wow! If that is a fact it is clearly saying that parents don't have the ability to raise a child. Now that would be communistic at worse and socialist at best. Really sad for a nation as old as England.

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That is "it takes a village" in practice. Coming soon to a Nation near you.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:08 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Landrover View Post
Time was not on Charlies side, but this started last November! !! 5 weeks ago they wanted to come over the pond. The stinking courts said no......why? ??
My child, wife and I would be dead if this nation tried stopping us from searching for an answer on my own dime.....or donated funds from around the globe. Why would the government even want to intervene at all?? Just odd I tell ya!!



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The last thing a Socialist govt wants is fir that baby to go to a free market system and actually be cured.



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Old 07-24-2017, 07:13 PM   #20
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Brother from a self employed man who can only afford the insurance through the government I wish I had the health care that is available in UK. That said that's about the only thing I prefer in the Uk but I'm suprised to see this they do take pretty good care of their people. I was burn there and half my family is still there. This is the first year of my life to have health insurance and I only bought it because
I was fined 1400 last year for not having it. Trust me paying out of pocket for health insurance is not fun and could lead to a shorter life expectancy
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:14 PM   #21
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The last thing a Socialist govt wants is fir that baby to go to a free market system and actually be cured.



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Never thought about that
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:10 PM   #22
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I grew up in the UK. National Health is crap, its as bad as our VA. Both single payer. Taxes there are insane, someone has to pay for it.


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Old 07-24-2017, 08:19 PM   #23
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Brother from a self employed man who can only afford the insurance through the government I wish I had the health care that is available in UK. That said that's about the only thing I prefer in the Uk but I'm suprised to see this they do take pretty good care of their people. I was burn there and half my family is still there. This is the first year of my life to have health insurance and I only bought it because
I was fined 1400 last year for not having it. Trust me paying out of pocket for health insurance is not fun and could lead to a shorter life expectancy
Trust me, I feel your pain. A $1400 penalty for not purchasing an overpriced, mandated service. RIDICULOUS. People like you and I really take it in the teeth but the answer isn't forcing our neighbors at gunpoint to pay for our family's needs. If you need help, there is probably not a person on this site that would have a problem helping you and your family. I wouldn't hesitate but please understand, we already have that system and it is grossly mismanaged by a Government bureau. What the Government giveth, the Government can taketh away.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:13 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Livin'2hunt View Post
In the U.K., a one year old baby named Charlie Gard is now going to die because the single-payer system would not permit the child travel to the United States for the treatment and cure awaiting his arrival. The parents had to sue Parliament in order to permit the treatment because he was locked into mandated single-payer. If Charlie would have received treatment early after diagnosis, his life could have been saved but the protracted litigation will prohibit effective treatment. This IS a death panel system. Forgive me if I don't see the upside to it.

Think about it
One govt would not pay for a patient to fly to another country for medical treatment

No medical plan in the USA public or private will fly you to Spain to get stem cell treatments.

The example you gave here is not single payer related at all.

Name one medical insurance program in the top 50 countries in the world that will pay for its members to fly to another country to seek treatment in a non emergency setting.

You won't be able to find one.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Livin'2hunt View Post
If you need help, there is probably not a person on this site that would have a problem helping you and your family. I wouldn't hesitate but please understand, we already have that system and it is grossly mismanaged by a Government bureau. What the Government giveth, the Government can taketh away.
I didn't see a gofundme set up for goldeneagle's medical bills.
It's laughable you think charity will be able to cure the countries medical care cost problems.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:21 AM   #26
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While I agree that it's ridiculous that the courts should be able to tell parents they can't get experimental treatments to help their child,

Regardless, the treatment doesn't cause any problems, so it couldn't have hurt to try. I'm all for experimental medicine in such scenarios.
The us govt won't allow you to smoke mary j to assist with your cancer treatment when studies have shown it to be beneficial.

Instead of a $5 joint the us govt wants you to swallow a $5,000 pill.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:25 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Kmart49 View Post
It's my understanding that unlike in the US, a child's rights/decision trump their parents in the U.K. and many other countries. Because the child could not make a decision for themselves, it was under the jurisdiction of the courts to decide on behalf of the kid. The courts believed that it was in his best interest to have life support removed hence why the parents had to file an injunction to prevent that from happening.
It's the same in the USA
Your kid belongs to the state of Texas before they belong to you
Even afterwards there are many areas where the govt can step in and dictate what you can or can't do with your child
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Old 07-25-2017, 05:17 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Landrover View Post
Time was not on Charlies side, but this started last November! !! 5 weeks ago they wanted to come over the pond. The stinking courts said no......why? ??
My child, wife and I would be dead if this nation tried stopping us from searching for an answer on my own dime.....or donated funds from around the globe. Why would the government even want to intervene at all?? Just odd I tell ya!!

I concur!

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http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/a...t-11319544.php


This same thing happens in the USA
I knew I recalled a similar case
Courts and doctors are saying the kid was dead but family wanted to give it the old hail Mary
They had to sue in order to take their child from California to Jersey for experimental treatment

This was not because of single payer.
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Old 07-25-2017, 05:25 AM   #29
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How can you still be breathing 3 years after the coroner pronounced you dead and signed your death certificate?
You know, once that death certificate was signed the family could collect on life insurance

This girl is breathing in a hospital bed in New Jersey as you're reading this in 2017

Oh what a tangled web....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahi_McMath_case

On January 5, 2014, Children's Hospital released McMath's body to the Alameda County coroner. The coroner's office had issued an official death certificate for McMath on January 3, 2014, with the date of death listed as December 12, 2013. The death certificate was incomplete, pending an autopsy to determine cause of death.[38] After receiving custody of her body from Children's Hospital, the Coroner then released her to the custody of her mother, who was warned of and assumed all risk regarding cardiac arrest during the transfer.[39][40][41] The family moved the girl to an undisclosed location where a tracheostomy was performed and a feeding tube was inserted.[42]
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:49 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by texansfan View Post
http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/a...t-11319544.php


This same thing happens in the USA
I knew I recalled a similar case
Courts and doctors are saying the kid was dead but family wanted to give it the old hail Mary
They had to sue in order to take their child from California to Jersey for experimental treatment

This was not because of single payer.
Touche'......fair analogy. I do remember that incident.

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Old 07-25-2017, 08:20 AM   #31
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Wow! Sure easy to see the poster suffering from LDS.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:22 AM   #32
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What is LDS you ask?
Liberal Derangement Syndrome LDS
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:56 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by texansfan View Post
I didn't see a gofundme set up for goldeneagle's medical bills.
It's laughable you think charity will be able to cure the countries medical care cost problems.

This is me ignoring the dim wit.
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Old 07-25-2017, 09:30 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by muzzlebrake View Post
Wow! Sure easy to see the poster suffering from LDS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livin'2hunt View Post
This is me ignoring the dim wit.
Not liberalism.
Its just calling out pure misinformation and lies.
You cant call out single-payer for stuff that single payer had nothing to do with but also the same stuff happens right here in the good old USA well before single payer.


Obama is still a Muslim.
I bet you my entire year's income some folks on this site believe that and that Obama made backdoor deals to save ISIS.
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Old 07-25-2017, 05:11 PM   #35
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I grew up in the UK. National Health is crap, its as bad as our VA. Both single payer. Taxes there are insane, someone has to pay for it.
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What baffles me is that for some odd reason people can't see that the government screws up everything. Why would National Health be any different than the VA is they ran both?

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What is LDS you ask?
Liberal Derangement Syndrome LDS
Yep....He's deranged.
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:59 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Livin'2hunt View Post
Trust me, I feel your pain. A $1400 penalty for not purchasing an overpriced, mandated service. RIDICULOUS. People like you and I really take it in the teeth but the answer isn't forcing our neighbors at gunpoint to pay for our family's needs. If you need help, there is probably not a person on this site that would have a problem helping you and your family. I wouldn't hesitate but please understand, we already have that system and it is grossly mismanaged by a Government bureau. What the Government giveth, the Government can taketh away.


Correct, Plenty of evidence that patients in these single payer systems having to give up certain things before the gov. will treat you for something completely unrelated.
Once they have the system in place your no longer free to do as you please your only allowed to do as they say.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:27 PM   #37
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No where in the constitution does it say the government will supply health care. You can argue whether it's good or bad but it doesn't really matter. Health care should not be supplied by the government, it's unconstitutional.
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Old 07-26-2017, 06:55 AM   #38
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How can you still be breathing 3 years after the coroner pronounced you dead and signed your death certificate?
You know, once that death certificate was signed the family could collect on life insurance

This girl is breathing in a hospital bed in New Jersey as you're reading this in 2017

Oh what a tangled web....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahi_McMath_case

On January 5, 2014, Children's Hospital released McMath's body to the Alameda County coroner. The coroner's office had issued an official death certificate for McMath on January 3, 2014, with the date of death listed as December 12, 2013. The death certificate was incomplete, pending an autopsy to determine cause of death.[38] After receiving custody of her body from Children's Hospital, the Coroner then released her to the custody of her mother, who was warned of and assumed all risk regarding cardiac arrest during the transfer.[39][40][41] The family moved the girl to an undisclosed location where a tracheostomy was performed and a feeding tube was inserted.[42]
Not surprising only one of y'all are touching this
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:33 AM   #39
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Not surprising only one of y'all are touching this
I'm not familiar with the case here in the US you linked to above. But it doesn't state weather the family had private insurance or any health insurance for that matter. So it's hard to compare apples to apples without that info.

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