9mm vs 40 s&w vs 45 ACP?

[TacticalCowboy]

Actually they are pretty much the same in the three common handgun ammo on the market. They are designed to be that way.

In self defense rounds, it doesn’t matter what a caliber can do. Self defense handgun ammo is specifically engineered to fall into a narrow performance window. The FBI came out with their 12”-18”. Even the mighty 10mm back in the late 80’s was lowered to sub-sonic speeds which led to the .40S&W.

If ammo manufacturers of various 30-30, .308, .300 Win Mag and others got together and designed all of their bullets to only penetrate a certain depth and stop... then they would all be the same. They however aren’t limited to a predetermined outcome the way common self defense handgun ammo is.

In various penetration and expansion tests in gelatin after being fired through clothing, wallboard, plywood, car door steel and car windshields, the rounds are fairly close with one typically “outperforming” the others by an inch in penetration or 1/10 of an inch in expansion. Many times the round will not outperform the others in both categories.

So let’s talk math.....

For example in Federal HST tests (my agency’s issue ammo),

Fired through car door steel, the HST 147gr 9mm and HST 230gr .45 both penetrated 17.5” into gelatin. The 9mm expanded to .43 and the .45 to .51. So for the same depth, the .45 expanded 8/100 of an inch more. The .40 expanded to .45 but only penetrated 11”.

Fired through wallboard, the .40 and .45 were virtually identical in expansion beating the 9mm by about 1/10”... but the 9 penetrated almost 1.5” more.

Into a car windshield, the 9mm expanded more than both the .40 and .45 and even penetrated more into the gelatin than the .45.

In bare gelatin, all three calibers penetrated 12”. The expansions were .85, .96 and .98 (9/40/45). Even the lowly 9mm expanded to almost an inch while traveling 12” deep.

No caliber significantly outperformed the others in any test and each caliber outperformed the others in some tests.

The only real difference in the calibers is round capacity and recoil.

These rounds were designed to fall into a fairly narrow performance window. Again, it doesn’t matter what a round can do but in over the counter self defense rounds, what it is designed to do.

Does .45 ball always enter and exit larger than 9mm ball? Sure... but how many people are using ball ammo for self defense?

Comparing OTC pistol self defense rounds to a .243 vs. .300 Win Mag or a .410 vs a 12 gauge is like comparing toothpaste to socks. They aren’t even in the same conversation. That is because the FBI came up with a standard and the major companies design their bullets to be statistically the same and have done exactly that.

In my opinion.

So if they are all going to expand to the same size and penetrate the same distance, let’s look at energy. These members are all from HST:

124grn 9mm: 364 fpe, while the 165 .40 has 468fpe. That’s a 23% deficit.
147grain 9mm: 326 fpe, with 180grain .40 delivering 408 fpe. 20% deficit.

If we really want to pick and choose, 147grain 9mm with 326fpe vs 165grain .40 with 468 fpe= 30% deficit.

So I guess they’re all the same, after all.

[Javelin]

Lord help us. The reason all three exist is because no two people are the same. Some love looking at statistical numbers based on physics, some like to look at statistical numbers based on prior events and some just like to buy a gun they like then tell everyone why it is the best.
I sold all my 40sw pistols simply because I wanted to reduce the various ammo I had to buy. I have one 45 only because I have not put it up for sale. I have a 380 for when I need a small light gun to conceal and I have two 10mm I hunt with, two 38spl I keep in my truck and jeep with rat shot, and I have 6 different 9mm that I trust in any self defense situation and never worry it will not do what a 40 or 45 will

[DRT]

Heck I wouldn't want to get shot with a .22LR much less any of the larger pistol rounds. Debate all you want.

[tvc184]

So if they are all going to expand to the same size and penetrate the same distance, let’s look at energy. These members are all from HST:

124grn 9mm: 364 fpe, while the 165 .40 has 468fpe. That’s a 23% deficit.
147grain 9mm: 326 fpe, with 180grain .40 delivering 408 fpe. 20% deficit.

If we really want to pick and choose, 147grain 9mm with 326fpe vs 165grain .40 with 468 fpe= 30% deficit.

So I guess they’re all the same, after all.

Energy doesn’t do squat.

Bleeding kills or incapacitates, not energy.

No, they aren’t all the same if you want to simply compare dimensions. One weighs 124 grains, another 230 and yet another 147. Their cases are different diameters and lengths. Their powder charges are different.

If this thread was a math and physics class, you are correct. I thought it was about bullet wounds.

In that, they are all virtually identical.

[tvc184]

Lord help us. The reason all three exist is because no two people are the same. Some love looking at statistical numbers based on physics, some like to look at statistical numbers based on prior events and some just like to buy a gun they like then tell everyone why it is the best.
I sold all my 40sw pistols simply because I wanted to reduce the various ammo I had to buy. I have one 45 only because I have not put it up for sale. I have a 380 for when I need a small light gun to conceal and I have two 10mm I hunt with, two 38spl I keep in my truck and jeep with rat shot, and I have 6 different 9mm that I trust in any self defense situation and never worry it will not do what a 40 or 45 will

Just stop!! Please.

Trying to be logical doesn’t help the discussion.

[TacticalCowboy]

We only use logic when it suits our agenda on TBH!!!

[okrattler]

Most self defense bullets,especially that law enforcement use are designed to stay in the body correct? If blood loss is so important and it boils down to the best for incapacitating someone,technically the one that makes the biggest exit wound is the best. I still don't see how that isn't comparable with hunting. If you're shooting a deer do you want one tiny hole in it or a tiny one and a bigger one on the opposite side?

I get that you're not blood trailing a human threat. But seems to me if you shoot someone 6 times and theres 12 holes in them that's better than just 6.

[tvc184]

Most self defense bullets,especially that law enforcement use are designed to stay in the body correct? If blood loss is so important and it boils down to the best for incapacitating someone,technically the one that makes the biggest exit wound is the best. I still don't see how that isn't comparable with hunting. If you're shooting a deer do you want one tiny hole in it or a tiny one and a bigger one on the opposite side?

I get that you're not blood trailing a human threat. But seems to me if you shoot someone 6 times and theres 12 holes in them that's better than just 6.

Sure it’s better.

Hunting rounds aren’t limited by possible collateral damage. How many times have we seen the description of “overkill” like maybe a .300WM for a whitetail that weighs 140 pounds. If the bullet is powerful enough to go through three deer standing beside each other, great.

Hunting ammo isn’t hindered by limitations. If we were hunting on a street in downtown Houston, it would be a different story.

A self defense handgun round inside of a home or on some city street isn’t so desirable if it can go through three people.

Like said previously, it doesn’t matter what a round can do at its maximum potential. When talking about self defense loads which is what this thread started as, they are designed to perform the same. Can you make a .40 that expands very little but penetrates 24”? It probably wouldn’t take much designing. But when a company makes bullets that intentionally fall short of that....

Unlike hunting ammo which again, isn’t limited. Killing an animal in the woods isn’t the same as shooting at a person in a possible crowded environment.

IMO

[okrattler]

Sure it’s better.

Hunting rounds aren’t limited by possible collateral damage. How many times have we seen the description of “overkill” like maybe a .300WM for a whitetail that weighs 140 pounds. If the bullet is powerful enough to go through three deer standing beside each other, great.

Hunting ammo isn’t hindered by limitations. If we were hunting on a street in downtown Houston, it would be a different story.

A self defense handgun round inside of a home or on some city street isn’t so desirable if it can go through three people.

Like said previously, it doesn’t matter what a round can do at its maximum potential. When talking about self defense loads which is what this thread started as, they are designed to perform the same. Can you make a .40 that expands very little but penetrates 24”? It probably wouldn’t take much designing. But when a company makes bullets that intentionally fall short of that....

Unlike hunting ammo which again, isn’t limited. Killing an animal in the woods isn’t the same as shooting at a person in a possible crowded environment.

IMO

I understand the need for having controlled expansion bullets and things like that. But I'm just saying when you compare the 3 or pistol rounds in general,technically some are better than others. If we weren't just talking about the bullets that were designed to reduce or eliminate collateral damage but looked at the whole picture and included them all. When you look at it that way there defiantly would be pistol rounds that cause more damage than others.

If anything I'd say even with advances in bullet design some cartridges that weren't as desirable for self defense in years past have now become reliable man stoppers. Which leads me to believe that the larger caliber bullets aren't reaching their full potential as such.

I suppose one good thing is everyone is on an equal playing field. The bad guys have bullets that are doing the same thing according to these articles. So I guess it all boils down to who can get the most hits on target and make them count.

[TacticalCowboy]

If energy had absolutely no bearing on stopping a critter (2 legged or 4) it would stand to reason that a 147 grain bullet out of a 9mm, a 158 out of a 357, and a 150 grain bullet out of a 35 Wheelen would all stop said critter just as well as the next, at any distance. We all know this is not the case.

If passthroughs are bad, I want to drop as much energy into a critter as possible.

[Mike D]

So if they are all going to expand to the same size and penetrate the same distance, let’s look at energy. These members are all from HST:



124grn 9mm: 364 fpe, while the 165 .40 has 468fpe. That’s a 23% deficit.

147grain 9mm: 326 fpe, with 180grain .40 delivering 408 fpe. 20% deficit.



If we really want to pick and choose, 147grain 9mm with 326fpe vs 165grain .40 with 468 fpe= 30% deficit.



So I guess they’re all the same, after all.

The issue is none of them have the energy to immediately incapacitate without a CNS hit. There just isn’t enough there to disrupt enough to cause immediate incapacitation like a rifle or shotgun does.

That’s why energy isn’t as important.


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[TacticalCowboy]

The issue is none of them have the energy to immediately incapacitate without a CNS hit. There just isn’t enough there to disrupt enough to cause immediate incapacitation like a rifle or shotgun does.

That’s why energy isn’t as important.


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I know it’s not the be-all end-all, even in rifles.

But to say it doesn’t matter at all is just silly.

[UltraMax]

If energy had absolutely no bearing on stopping a critter (2 legged or 4) it would stand to reason that a 147 grain bullet out of a 9mm, a 158 out of a 357, and a 150 grain bullet out of a 35 Wheelen would all stop said critter just as well as the next, at any distance. We all know this is not the case.

If passthroughs are bad, I want to drop as much energy into a critter as possible.

I don’t think they were necessarily saying that energy has no bearing whatsoever. What I took from what was said is when you are shooting a HUMAN the energy differences of the rounds (9mm, 40, 45) is negligible. Which I agree with.

An extra 100 ftlbs is not gonna do much. Now an extra 1000, absolutely.

[Clay C]

Guns are icky.