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Old 02-22-2021, 08:55 AM   #1
Michael
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Default Lost Buck - What Went Wrong?

It's a fairly long video, but I wanted to capture and record details for my own archival purposes. With benefit of hindsight, what might you have done differently?

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Old 02-22-2021, 09:31 AM   #2
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Another ducking deer...I love watching your videos..

Shot placement could have been obviously a bit more forward however I'm wondering what a faster arrow would do for her. What poundage can she pull? Its obvious he rolls away and pulls his gut closer makes me think if that arrow got there just a smidge sooner you might have a totally different story.

Snapshot of moment of release and impact hes clearly ducked and rolled imo..
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Old 02-22-2021, 09:56 AM   #3
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Cannot believe you didn't recover that deer...

Great story regardless...hunting is as much about lessons learned as it is the kill.

Get back out there this fall and Drill ONE!
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:19 AM   #4
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I watched the video last night on YouTube and in spite of the fact that it was not the outcome y'all wanted it was one of the best hunting videos I've watched in awhile. The interaction between the two you was priceless. As far as what could have been done different.... absolutely nothing, just my opinion. As all of us know, or will know if it hasn't already happened, this happens. You live, you learn and keep enjoying the challenge of the sport. Again, thanks for sharing.
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:39 AM   #5
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Michael, that is truly one of your best videos yet! The emotion from Hanna was so amazing! You are such a great dad for the time that you spend afield with your daughters, as well as capturing these moments on video. You are a great example of what a father should be in my opinion! As far as the shot goes, and having had this happen to me more than I care to admit I always wait for the deer to bring that front leg forward to open the vitals.
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:41 AM   #6
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My opinion. Don't teach low and behind the shoulder. Often results in stomach shot deer. Teach vital V. Much more lethal and the deer is much more likely to either die or live rather than die and lost.
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:45 AM   #7
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Awesome video. Sorry Hannah didn't get her buck but yall did everything right. The only thing I can add is to make sure the deer is perfectly broadside or slightly quartering away. I made a terrible shot this year on my buck and had to call Roy and John to come finish the track for me. The deer was stone dead 75 yards from where we stopped tracking him but it was worth it to have the dog come take a look. My saving grace was the fact that the deer was quartering away (harder then I thought) and I must of caught the offside lung. I haven't even edited the footage because it makes me sick to watch! I missed my spot by a large margin but still ended up with the buck, purely because of angle. I think most of the time, that deer dies and I can't believe Roy's dog didn't get that deer. Its bowhunting and it happens!
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo View Post
My opinion. Don't teach low and behind the shoulder. Often results in stomach shot deer. Teach vital V. Much more lethal and the deer is much more likely to either die or live rather than die and lost.
I second this
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:56 AM   #9
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First off... great job on that video. You did everything right after the shot. All of us that have done this a long time understand that this happens and most of the time there is no explanation. Clearly the shot was a little back but definitely low liver. I would expect to recover that deer 100 percent with a dog.

Thanks for sharing. Again, I really like the video.

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Old 02-22-2021, 10:58 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by toledo View Post
My opinion. Don't teach low and behind the shoulder. Often results in stomach shot deer. Teach vital V. Much more lethal and the deer is much more likely to either die or live rather than die and lost.
While I agree on most accounts and pretty much shoot only for the deadly V it changes when you have lower poundage draw weights lighter arrows ect imo anyway .Makes it alot tougher to punch through that shoulder.

Great video Michael as usual! I would have expected a recovery with that shot especially with a dog.
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:59 AM   #11
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wow, your video production skills are second to none. can't believe y'all didn't find that buck. good stuff as always
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:00 AM   #12
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So my take is sometimes it just doesn't go like you would think. We had a buck two years ago that we named Zombie because he was passed through the lungs the first time, then again two weeks later then again two weeks after that before he died. All three arrows exactly where you want them. See my post for the pictures.
https://discussions.texasbowhunter.c...ghlight=zombie
This buck lived for a month with two pass throughs in the lungs.
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:10 AM   #13
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Head down deer drop and move faster. I saw that on a video about deer reaction times and have tested and it *appears* to hold true. Shot was too far back, I think that was also a result of the deer having his head down creating an illusion that the shot was further forward than it was at the time of release. I think it was Smart on here that posted a video that pretty much everyone, including myself, thought he had heart shot the deer, but it was actually a liver hit. His video was a similar deer position, if i recall correctly

Because of those 2 videos and my real world experiences, i try to only shoot at head up, relaxed deer.

Excellent video and thanks for posting!
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:16 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingranch View Post
Another ducking deer...I love watching your videos..

Shot placement could have been obviously a bit more forward however I'm wondering what a faster arrow would do for her. What poundage can she pull? Its obvious he rolls away and pulls his gut closer makes me think if that arrow got there just a smidge sooner you might have a totally different story.

Snapshot of moment of release and impact hes clearly ducked and rolled imo..
I haven't checked it recently, but I believe she's somewhere between 40-45#. I upped it a little during the season. I think she can handle more and that's one thing we're going to increase as we practice. We also want to extend her comfortable target range out beyond 30 yards.

I happen to think a Jak Hammer would have made a difference here. I was reluctant to put a mechanical on her low poundage bow, but even as is the Avail is efficient enough to punch through a whitetail. I ordered her a pack of JH's immediately after this hunt.
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:24 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo View Post
My opinion. Don't teach low and behind the shoulder. Often results in stomach shot deer. Teach vital V. Much more lethal and the deer is much more likely to either die or live rather than die and lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCTx Dude View Post
I second this
Quote:
Originally Posted by TildenHunter View Post
Awesome video. Sorry Hannah didn't get her buck but yall did everything right. The only thing I can add is to make sure the deer is perfectly broadside or slightly quartering away. I made a terrible shot this year on my buck and had to call Roy and John to come finish the track for me. The deer was stone dead 75 yards from where we stopped tracking him but it was worth it to have the dog come take a look. My saving grace was the fact that the deer was quartering away (harder then I thought) and I must of caught the offside lung. I haven't even edited the footage because it makes me sick to watch! I missed my spot by a large margin but still ended up with the buck, purely because of angle. I think most of the time, that deer dies and I can't believe Roy's dog didn't get that deer. Its bowhunting and it happens!
We've had similar discussions about various scenarios and shot angles, even before this hunt. I have a tendency not to want to crowd the shoulder because I've both experienced and seen issues with hitting the "elbow" (with both fixed and mechanicals). I have gotten more comfortable with aiming for the "deadly v" on straight broadside shots.

I actually prefer shooting at a slightly quartering animal, and "aim for the exit." I believe it allows for a greater margin for error while avoiding potential problems with the shoulder/elbow. I also believe it negates ducking a bit, as a deer will typically drop more in front than the rear.

But that's a discussion for another video!
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Old 02-22-2021, 11:29 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bowtech Lefty View Post
Michael, that is truly one of your best videos yet! The emotion from Hanna was so amazing! You are such a great dad for the time that you spend afield with your daughters, as well as capturing these moments on video. You are a great example of what a father should be in my opinion! As far as the shot goes, and having had this happen to me more than I care to admit I always wait for the deer to bring that front leg forward to open the vitals.
This is the kindest compliment you could possibly give. I sincerely appreciate that.

I almost always wait for a deer's leg to be forward before taking the shot, as well. In the video, I instructed Hannah to do the same. Technically, after the deer jumped at the other deer's "sneeze", both legs were forward.
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Old 02-22-2021, 01:05 PM   #17
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You two have a had a dream father/daughter season, thanks for letting us come along. Hate it for Hannah, glad she talked to others. If you bow hunt - you've been there, a tough feeling to deal with. Chin up and you get to go do it again soon. We are all rooting for you!

PS - I would have lost money on that blood trail, looked like a sure thing.
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Old 02-22-2021, 03:39 PM   #18
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Michael, top notch and an Excellent Teaching Video!! Nothing better than having your kids as hunting buddies!! Your production/editing skills are really first class to go with the equipment you use! (Jealous!! )



Regarding the shot, good old 20/20 hind sight says wait til they pick their head up, and put that on-side leg forward, but then again, that's hindsight. The shot was deceptively back, but even after watching the original "short" version of your video, I'd have bet money on dead deer, and you got the best in the trackin' business in to complete the deal... Not much else you could do in my estimation... I still am shocked hat Roy's dog did not find that deer, alive or dead. I only have to assume that the dog was just not up to his usual self after having been on a long track just before doing Hannah's... Maybe a different dog at a different point would have ended in a recovered deer, but like I said, you had the best in the business there!
Sure appreciate all the time and effort you put into the production of these videos for us all to watch and learn from!!
Thanks!
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Old 02-22-2021, 03:44 PM   #19
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What a great video. Though not the final result either of you had planned, I think you did a very good job on illustrating what hunting is to your family. If you look at the glass half full, that's a video of an incredible time a father and daughter got to spend together. I was really pulling for Hannah this season. She put in more time in the field than most people. She's bound to run into some good luck sooner than later, and when that time comes, it will be a well earned success.

As far as what I'd do different? It's a whole lot easier to arm chair quarterback the shot from the climate controlled couch and no adrenaline running through the veins, than in the moment. I feel, in regards to most south texas bucks, adjusting your point of aim in anticipation of him reacting to the shot is kind of a 50/50 deal. I prefer not to do it most times. If she aimed dead center of the lungs, that would give her the highest margin of error. If he does duck and you hit too high and/or forward, it's probable the deer will survive. Too far low and back is certain death and a more difficult trail. Regardless, this is a part of hunting we all experience. All there is to do is reload and shoot another one.
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Old 02-22-2021, 04:03 PM   #20
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Although, not the outcome any of us wanted for her....this was one of your best pieces of film production. Hanna has been very impressive this year with her dedication to time spent practicing and sits waiting on "green light".

I simply can not wait until next season. I see that 10 "with kickers" ending up on your wall


"I want him more than a boyfriend!" Totally cracked me up!!!
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Old 02-22-2021, 04:17 PM   #21
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Good video and one hell of a due diligence job in recovery attempt. We've all been there, one thing I think bowhunters should concentrate on is shooting the deadly V tight to the shoulder. From my experience and others seems like a marginal shot is always "back".
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Old 02-22-2021, 04:29 PM   #22
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Outstanding vid!! The emotion really is the best part...for the recovery, that happens with all methods & part of being a hunter like stated.

Ya know, you really are truly blessed to have hunting memories with your kids Michael...mine just never got into it. My Dad couldn't get out for a men only hunt/fish without me screaming & getting dragged by clutching his ankle. I think Kenny killed a deer just to make me happy.

The Bible says to raise your children in 'their own way' & have two great kids...you & mama have it rock solid nailed down!!
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Old 02-22-2021, 04:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowtech Lefty View Post
Michael, that is truly one of your best videos yet! The emotion from Hanna was so amazing! You are such a great dad for the time that you spend afield with your daughters, as well as capturing these moments on video. You are a great example of what a father should be in my opinion! As far as the shot goes, and having had this happen to me more than I care to admit I always wait for the deer to bring that front leg forward to open the vitals.
Words well spoken here. ^^^ Great video and truly part of a bowhunting experience. Memories for life
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Old 02-22-2021, 05:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by SaltwaterSlick View Post
Michael, top notch and an Excellent Teaching Video!! Nothing better than having your kids as hunting buddies!! Your production/editing skills are really first class to go with the equipment you use! (Jealous!! )



Regarding the shot, good old 20/20 hind sight says wait til they pick their head up, and put that on-side leg forward, but then again, that's hindsight. The shot was deceptively back, but even after watching the original "short" version of your video, I'd have bet money on dead deer, and you got the best in the trackin' business in to complete the deal... Not much else you could do in my estimation... I still am shocked hat Roy's dog did not find that deer, alive or dead. I only have to assume that the dog was just not up to his usual self after having been on a long track just before doing Hannah's... Maybe a different dog at a different point would have ended in a recovered deer, but like I said, you had the best in the business there!
Sure appreciate all the time and effort you put into the production of these videos for us all to watch and learn from!!
Thanks!

It wasnít Royís top dog (Rufus.) I donít know that he would have found it, but unfortunately he wasnít available. Roy, John and the younger dog definitely put in the effort to find it.

Thanks, as always, for the feedback.


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Old 02-22-2021, 05:08 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by J-Bone View Post
What a great video. Though not the final result either of you had planned, I think you did a very good job on illustrating what hunting is to your family. If you look at the glass half full, that's a video of an incredible time a father and daughter got to spend together. I was really pulling for Hannah this season. She put in more time in the field than most people. She's bound to run into some good luck sooner than later, and when that time comes, it will be a well earned success.

As far as what I'd do different? It's a whole lot easier to arm chair quarterback the shot from the climate controlled couch and no adrenaline running through the veins, than in the moment. I feel, in regards to most south texas bucks, adjusting your point of aim in anticipation of him reacting to the shot is kind of a 50/50 deal. I prefer not to do it most times. If she aimed dead center of the lungs, that would give her the highest margin of error. If he does duck and you hit too high and/or forward, it's probable the deer will survive. Too far low and back is certain death and a more difficult trail. Regardless, this is a part of hunting we all experience. All there is to do is reload and shoot another one.


Thanks Justin. Thanks, also, for letting us essentially monopolize the blind you set up at 7.5! Hannah obviously loves the setup.

As I was watching through the tracking footage I was reminded that Hannah mentioned that she wished you were in camp, not only for your tracking skills, but because of the encouragement you always gave her during the season. I thought that was pretty cool.


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Old 02-22-2021, 05:41 PM   #26
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No doubt a wonderful video and more importantly, amazing father daughter time! What a good duo! Keep them coming and tell her to keep after it!
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Old 02-22-2021, 05:52 PM   #27
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The shot on the doe, as shallow as it penetrated and where it hit, I would say it hit vertebrae, but did not have the energy to penetrate the vertebrae.

On the buck, the shot was definitely low, but it should have gotten some lung, but possibly not much lung, may have just got the very bottom edge of the lungs. I say buck, I should say deer with antlers. Not 100% sure that was a buck, no nuts hanging, when it spun, but maybe they sucked up inside, because of the pain.

The broadhead the best I could tell was fixed blade, so a broadhead not opening does not seem to be a factor.

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Old 02-22-2021, 06:10 PM   #28
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Awesome video! Memories of a lifetime there and it’s all recorded! Very well done, regardless of the outcome, there’s lots of good here and Hanna will be back stronger then ever. Good stuff Michael!
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Old 02-22-2021, 06:31 PM   #29
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I really like how you got right to the action. You hooked me with it. Now I HAD to see if she got the buck . Sorry, she did not. But I know of no bowhunter who is perfect. Hang in there Hanna, do not get bummed out. We have all been there. Great times with the family and the vids keep getting better Michael.
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Old 02-22-2021, 07:34 PM   #30
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I haven't checked it recently, but I believe she's somewhere between 40-45#. I upped it a little during the season. I think she can handle more and that's one thing we're going to increase as we practice. We also want to extend her comfortable target range out beyond 30 yards.

I happen to think a Jak Hammer would have made a difference here. I was reluctant to put a mechanical on her low poundage bow, but even as is the Avail is efficient enough to punch through a whitetail. I ordered her a pack of JH's immediately after this hunt.
Iím curious as to her setup also. Poundage, arrow weight, speed KE,/ momentum.
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:08 PM   #31
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Iím curious as to her setup also. Poundage, arrow weight, speed KE,/ momentum.


Itís been a few years and a few bows since I set hers up. Her arrow weight is around 315ish. Iím not sure if I ever measured speed or calculated KE. Iíve slowly bumped her draw weight but I havenít measured the increase. I tuned it after I replaced her rest in October/November. Next time Iím at B2B Iíll try to remember to get some details.


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Old 02-22-2021, 08:36 PM   #32
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Kudos again to both of you on the video. Catching the raw emotion of the hunt is priceless, especially when videoing your kiddos.
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Old 02-22-2021, 09:29 PM   #33
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My first thought/reaction was that the shot was too low for that for back. Exit looked low and back behind the leg also. Itís a tricky shot placement. Low looks good, but low and just a little back is all guts. I donít know what could have been done different, other than waiting longer. But hindsight is 20/20. That shot dosenít look ďbadĒ, but in reality it is not in a good place.

Like mentioned above, every once in a while **it happens, and it always sucks when it happens to you.

Better luck next time!!!

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Old 02-23-2021, 05:41 AM   #34
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Old 02-23-2021, 06:37 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by GarGuy View Post
First off... great job on that video. You did everything right after the shot. All of us that have done this a long time understand that this happens and most of the time there is no explanation. Clearly the shot was a little back but definitely low liver. I would expect to recover that deer 100 percent with a dog.

Thanks for sharing. Again, I really like the video.
Dogs are not always 100% at finding dead deer. Ask Perow. We or he hired the best dog in our area, one I used before and was very impressed with, and it couldn't find his buck. And it was right in the middle of where we all looked. Dog had to of gone within 15 yards of that buck 2-3 times. I know we walked close to it a few times. We found it 3 days later when buzzards were on it.

Just to add to some thoughts. I do agree most of the time a good dog will find dead deer. Just a small % they're "off" their game or something.

I didn't read all posts or watch the entire video. But let me know if you find the buck. Would like to know how far it made it and if the dog was ever close. No doubt that buck should have left a long blood trail even if too little to see with human eyes.
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Old 02-23-2021, 08:59 AM   #36
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Great work on the video!!!! Really enjoyed watching. Hopefully she gets redemption on that buck this next year.
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Old 02-23-2021, 08:59 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Tony Pic View Post
I really like how you got right to the action. You hooked me with it. Now I HAD to see if she got the buck . Sorry, she did not. But I know of no bowhunter who is perfect. Hang in there Hanna, do not get bummed out. We have all been there. Great times with the family and the vids keep getting better Michael.


Thanks for the feedback on the production. Itís longer than most of my recent vids, but I wanted to tell the full story. And thanks for the encouragement for Hannah. Sheís more motivated than ever.

Weíre hoping to get her on some hogs and maybe even an exotic during the spring and summer.


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Old 02-23-2021, 09:13 AM   #38
Trumpkin
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Man, that's a tough outcome. The blood makes me think she still got the liver, and he should be dead somewhere. Y'all did everything right. She may have missed her spot, but only by a couple inches! That's a good shot, given her point of aim. Tell her to keep her head up. It happens!

The only change I'd make is to have her aim a little further forward. Without a big mech cut, the deadly V is the best place to put an arrow.
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Old 02-23-2021, 09:26 AM   #39
solocam_aggie
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This is hands down one of the best videos I have seen. Well put together. Sure wish she could have retrieved him.
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Old 02-23-2021, 09:35 AM   #40
SharpEnd
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Michael that was a great video, lots of funny moments with Hannah's comments prior to the shot and the raw emotion after the shot was just fantastic. Certainly a tough outcome, but what a memorable experience for both of you as well as a great learning. She went from high emotion to learning to come to grips with one of the toughest things to deal with in bowhunting. You can't put a price on that, and as a father it was exemplary. It is easy to later say "wish I would have" with our kids, but you're doing it, in a fine way.
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Old 02-23-2021, 09:46 AM   #41
ClayW
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Thanks for sharing Michael

Didn't like the outcome but really enjoyed you guys emotion after the shot! It doesn't get any better
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Old 02-23-2021, 09:48 AM   #42
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Michael, so much transparency and emotion in this video. Thanks to you and especially Hannah for your willingness to share it with the world. Hopefully Hannahís priorities always remain in the order of 1. Food, 2. Hunting, and (a distant) 3. Boyfriend.

You just set the bar for all the younger fathers that are watching this video, including myself.
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:09 AM   #43
Smart
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Great video as usual. I was pulling for Hannah with her raw emotion but bummed yall didn't find it.

In agreement with the too far back crowd.....Remember the Skimmer buck that I had to shoot twice. I think she hit in a similar place as my first shot. Many folks in that thread (including myself at the time of the shot) thought it was a dead deer on the first shot but we saw how he reacted and how he had to be shot again. Too low to catch lungs and too far back for the pumpstation plumbing. That sequence of shots here had made me push slightly higher and more into the shoulder deadly V or aim for the lungs. Low and behind the shoulder has too many fail possibilities for me. Anyway.... good luck to Hannah on the next one. Love her reaction and passion. LOL'd at I want this deer more than a boyfriend.



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Old 02-23-2021, 10:20 AM   #44
Miller
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Really great video by you and your daughter. You all went above and beyond to recover that deer. It is really nice that you show how things can turn out sometimes and how to handle it. I will be showing it to my boys.

It is had already been stated, but maybe just go over the equipment. It looks like her arrows could be cut down some if it won't effect arrow flight negatively. Maybe that would help on speed some. You could start there and look at her current arrows and what else available could be an improvement. I like GT Pierce and Black Eagle X Impact since you don't sacrifice speed much and can get good penetration.

Just watching that one video and her shooting. It looked like she kind of brought her finger over the trigger when it was time to fire and "punched" it. You can go down a big rabbit hole here, but a release like where she can wrap her finger around the trigger and squeeze, push and pull, slowly add pressure might help. Michael Braden has a good video that helps there.

After a lot of hunting with my oldest son and going through his archery hunting I have tried to video it all. The one thing I figured out is when he wasn't shooting over 250-260ish fps the deer/animals could "move" after 15 yards. We just learned that would and could happen. So he would try to make sure the conditions were as "perfect" as possible for shots longer than that... relaxed deer and in a good position. (Which is what you all did) I know in south Texas when you are on the ground with the deer that it is really hard to get shots under that range.

I have always had him shoot straight up the leg. My thinking (which is wrong a lot) was that it seems like a high percentages of bad shots are always back. The deer usually duck and lunge forward so if he is aiming straight up the leg and the deer does go forward he is still in the lungs.

Just some random thoughts from the sideline. Thanks again for sharing!
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:26 AM   #45
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Great video, loved the "realness" of your video verses some/most of the other stuff I see. Thank you both for sharing and honesty. I'm in agreement with most of the above comments. My only suggestions/thoughts which are solely based on my limited knowledge, are concerning skittish deer. I don't like them! Calm deer are easier to hunt and kill. I like wearing a dull black shirt/top, face paint or mask, and perhaps keep the windows down. I even go so far as to wear those cheap, dark brown glove with fingers cut out to hide my shiny skin. If they can't see me move, one step closer to success. I like the "aiming low, up the front leg too", never saw a deer jump backwards. :-) Aim Small

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Old 02-23-2021, 11:10 AM   #46
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Been there, done that, and (unfortunately) got the t-shirt.

Way to stay positive Hannah!
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:12 PM   #47
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There is some really great feedback and good suggestions on this thread! I really appreciate all of your thoughts on this.
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Old 02-23-2021, 01:58 PM   #48
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I remain in the "Deadly V" crowd. It's more the center of the vitals and room for error exists in all directions. Moreso than the low and tight to the shoulder approach. We've discussed this plenty, though. Every approach has its logic.

Great video that summarizes what we all go through but seldom document. Hannah will no doubt get her opportunities in the future. It's been fun to watch you and her work on the "hunt"!
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Old 02-23-2021, 04:28 PM   #49
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They brought John's son's dog, Migo out? They had Rufus and Migo when they came to our place back in November but only put Migo down. It turned out to be a super uneventful track but from the time Migo was on the ground to the time he was standing on my buck was about 3 minutes. I have heard good things about that dog. I sure was glad to meet Roy and John both. They are great guys. Most of the time that shot and that amount of blood will lead to a dead deer. Yes it was a little far back but NOT a terrible shot by any means. She just needs to get back after it and stick one this next season!
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Old 02-23-2021, 04:50 PM   #50
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too low and far back. had a young hunter do the same last hunt this year. better not to go for heart shot low and behind shoulder. better for 10 ring and quartering away slightly. best advice is always aim for the off shoulder this gives you better margin for error. bow hunters remorse... everyone gets it if they shoot enough critters. lots of things can happen when you turn it loose. great videos great family , keep it up
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