Protein Pellet Ingredients

[gingib]

Originally Posted by Sippy

It is a measure of energy in feed. I wouldn't say they are putting waste or filler into the feed, their ratios of low energy ingredients are higher thus making the feed less efficient. The animal will have to eat more to obtain x amount of energy from the feed vs a feed with higher tdn.

Do you mean energy like we mean energy in terms of moving? How does this affect the nutrient and protein intake in terms of improving a herd?

I guess my concern or lack of knowledge is if 2 feeds which are identical have 50%TDN and one has 85% TDN then the deer will have to eat that much more of the 50% to equal the same nutrients as the 85%....is that correct?

[TXBRASS]

Is it equilivent within protein intake as well?
If a deer eats 10 pounds of feed with a 80% TDN does that mean he gets 8 pounds worth of feed containing digestible protein vs eating a 60% TDN feed and only getting 6 pounds....???

This could make a huge difference and make me rethink the benefit of my dollar when purchasing what protein to feed....

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[gingib]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Is it equilivent within protein intake as well?
If a deer eats 10 pounds of feed with a 80% TDN does that mean he gets 8 pounds worth of feed containing digestible protein vs eating a 60% TDN feed and only getting 6 pounds....???

This could make a huge difference and make me rethink the benefit of my dollar when purchasing what protein to feed....

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I do agree.. Maybe some experts(unbiased) will chime in based on research

[bphillips]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Is it equilivent within protein intake as well?
If a deer eats 10 pounds of feed with a 80% TDN does that mean he gets 8 pounds worth of feed containing digestible protein vs eating a 60% TDN feed and only getting 6 pounds....???

This could make a huge difference and make me rethink the benefit of my dollar when purchasing what protein to feed....

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I agree. I want to send some of mine in to get checked now

[SouthTexas14]

This (TDN) is one of the most overlooked item on a nutrient sheet and, IMO, is by far and away the most important. The reason this information is not on a standard feed tag is: 1. It's not required and 2. For manufacturers who use least cost formulations. You could use different feed ingredients (fillers and such) to obtain the same standard nutrient levels on a tag. TDN will change dramatically in this setting.

[bphillips]

Originally Posted by SouthTexas14

This (TDN) is one of the most overlooked item on a nutrient sheet and, IMO, is by far and away the most important. The reason this information is not on a standard feed tag is: 1. It's not required and 2. For manufacturers who use least cost formulations. You could use different feed ingredients (fillers and such) to obtain the same standard nutrient levels on a tag. TDN will change dramatically in this setting.

Seems the better feeds would do even better advertising and pushing that as a selling point

[SouthTexas14]

Originally Posted by bphillips

Seems the better feeds would do even better advertising and pushing that as a selling point

I've talked this for a while. Mostly in phone conversations and emails. Like I've said before, I don't get on these very often.

[gingib]

I got a call into some people at one of these companies to find out some more info....intriguing to say the least but it makes absolute sense

[DF&G]

Give us a shout anytime. Office number is 830-965-1622. Either myself (Jason) or Philip are more than happy to share additional info.


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[gingib]

Originally Posted by DF&G

Give us a shout anytime. Office number is 830-965-1622. Either myself (Jason) or Philip are more than happy to share additional info.


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Can you post some info for us on what TND has to do with feeds and how it affects how much deer eat and the consumption of food/protein?

Just looking for research and I know yall have done it and have some knowledgeable people

[DF&G]

To me TDN has more to do with the amount of bang you are getting for your buck (in this case $). By definition it's the Total Digestible Nutrient. I can build a ration that has all the right numbers but if it has a low TDN then the animals consuming that ration cannot actually use or absorb/metabolize a high percentage of the nutrients in the ration.
As far as consumption it's really an independent factor. To me consumption has more to do with the make up and palatability of the feed itself. I feel that the peanuts do offer maximum palatability in this feed. Along with high protein and great fat make up. Plus you have to factor in the flavor and smell it adds to this feed.
One thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned is we also use an all natural flavoring agent that really sets this feed apart from any other feed on the market or any other natural forage available. I firmly believe that also adds to the palatability and consumption of our Double Down product.


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[Peyton]

Originally Posted by DF&G

To me TDN has more to do with the amount of bang you are getting for your buck (in this case $). By definition it's the Total Digestible Nutrient. I can build a ration that has all the right numbers but if it has a low TDN then the animals consuming that ration cannot actually use or absorb/metabolize a high percentage of the nutrients in the ration.
As far as consumption it's really an independent factor. To me consumption has more to do with the make up and palatability of the feed itself. I feel that the peanuts do offer maximum palatability in this feed. Along with high protein and great fat make up. Plus you have to factor in the flavor and smell it adds to this feed.




One thing that I'm not sure has been mentioned is we also use an all natural flavoring agent that really sets this feed apart from any other feed on the market or any other natural forage available. I firmly believe that also adds to the palatability and consumption of our Double Down product.


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Anise is like crack to deer!

[DF&G]

Well shoot there goes the neighborhood, and our big secret.


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[bphillips]

Jason I'm glad you answered a few questions here (and in my emails).


Guys if you call or email them they aren't hiding anything and will let you know what you want to know about feeds. I just need to get a little to San Angelo to try out

[TXBRASS]

Originally Posted by JWHunt

Black Gold....

Where are you located and how do you have so many feed tags?

LOL... Im in Shiner and we just got back from filling feeders at our lease in Dryden and we took my truck so between the 3 of us, that's what we used. I combine a few different feeds as I buy a little each week so I have what I need when it's time to head west again. Haven't fed DD yet, but got some yesterday for the next trip west.

I'm waiting to see what AntlerMax says their TDN is and based on that will probably combine DD, AntlerMax, and a little Roasted Soybeans in my next feeder fiil.
Based on absolutely ZERO science, but I think mixing feed types in same feeder might be beneficial.

[TXBRASS]

Ok.... it's way too early for me to be doing math but here's where my mind is going and tell me if I'm totally off base.

Right now I have Double Down with the highest TDN at 83% and MG20 with the lowest at 61%.

I can get 2 bags (100 pounds) of DD for $28 so basically $28 for 83 pounds of digestible protein. That comes out to 34 cents per pound of digestible protein.

I can get 100 pounds of MG 20 for $19 but that only gives me 61 pounds of digestible protein at a cost of 31 cents per pound of digestible.

HERE IS WHERE I SEE THE BIG DIFFERENCE:

With DD, my 1,000 pound feeder is actually feeding 830 pounds of digestible protein, and with the MG it's only feeding 610 pounds of digestible protein.... That is VERY significant in my books.....especially at only a 3 cent difference per digestible pound of protein.

Am I correct in my figuring???

Anxious to see what the TDN of Antlermax is....

[gingib]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Ok.... it's way too early for me to be doing math but here's where my mind is going and tell me if I'm totally off base.

Right now I have Double Down with the highest TDN at 83% and MG20 with the lowest at 61%.

I can get 2 bags (100 pounds) of DD for $28 so basically $28 for 83 pounds of digestible protein. That comes out to 34 cents per pound of digestible protein.

I can get 100 pounds of MG 20 for $19 but that only gives me 61 pounds of digestible protein at a cost of 31 cents per pound of digestible.

HERE IS WHERE I SEE THE BIG DIFFERENCE:

With DD, my 1,000 pound feeder is actually feeding 830 pounds of digestible protein, and with the MG it's only feeding 610 pounds of digestible protein.... That is VERY significant in my books.....especially at only a 3 cent difference per digestible pound of protein.

Am I correct in my figuring???

Anxious to see what the TDN of Antlermax is....

Looks right to me....This really has me thinking, but at the end of the day on a LF place again it is supplemental feed and $$$ to me means more. I just cant spend $12-13 a bag. At least the 18% MVP is a little higher at 65%

[SuperExotics]

Just got a reply from Cary Zipp at Red chain Feeds. Their two pellets 17% and 20% test out at 60-65% TDN. This is disappointing to me.

[bphillips]

Originally Posted by Sippy

Just got a reply from Cary Zipp at Red chain Feeds. Their two pellets 17% and 20% test out at 60-65% TDN. This is disappointing to me.

Dang that's another I was curious about

[TXBRASS]

Still waiting on ANTLERMAX But so far:

TDN %

Double Down = 82.6%
L&E = 76.7%
Red Chain 20 = 65%
Fehner = 64.7%
MG 18% MVP = 64.7%
MG 20% ST = 60.9%
Red Chain 17 = 60%

[TXBRASS]

Just got off the phone with Antlermax.... Antlermax 20 is 67%
...dang

[TXBRASS]

TDN %

Double Down = 82.6%
L&E = 76.7%
Antlermax 20 = 67%
Red Chain 20 = 65%
Fehner = 64.7%
MG 18% MVP = 64.7%
MG 20% ST = 60.9%
Red Chain 17 = 60%

[bphillips]

I have an email in to my local feed. At $360/ton it can afford to be a little low though

[M16]

Anybody know what is the TDN for Record Rack 20%.

[gingib]

Originally Posted by bphillips

I have an email in to my local feed. At $360/ton it can afford to be a little low though

Heck yeah you can! I am paying $375 a ton and I thought that was good. My neighbor pays $352 for one of the lower end proteins on this list

But again for the majority of feeds, 65% seems to be the norm +- a few %

Crazy to me DD is so much higher...Imagine if they could come down to $10ish a bag how many customers they would have

[M16]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Based on absolutely ZERO science, but I think mixing feed types in same feeder might be beneficial.

I don't. If there's one thing I won't do is constantly or even once switch brands of protein during the antler growing season.

[hammer63]

Anybody got a line on the TDN for Ful-O-Pep 20%?

[TXBRASS]

Not switching but adding an additional protein source. I mainly use roasted soybeans or just combine 2 different protein feeds together.... like I said....no science....just what I do... They eat it up.

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[SuperExotics]

I sent an email to ADM and will post their reply. I currently feed their 17%

[TXBRASS]

I just sent an email to Sportsmans Choice about Record Rack as well.

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[TXBRASS]

Anybody know the TDN of roasted soybeans?

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[TXBRASS]

Just found it online....Roasted soybean TDN is 93%

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[gingib]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Just found it online....Roasted soybean TDN is 93%

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Good to know. I am going to put 1-2 bags out in a homemade trough feeder come September thru the end of season as an attractant.

[TXBRASS]

Record Rack 20 TDN is 71%

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[TXBRASS]

Double Down = 82.6%
L&E = 76.7%
Record Rack 20 =71%
AntlerMax 20 = 67%
Red Chain 20 = 65%
Fehner = 64.7%
MG 18% MVP = 64.7%
MG 20% ST = 60.9%
Red Chain 17 = 60%

[Peyton]

Roasted soybeans aren't a complete feed like any brand protein feed. Just because they have a high TDN doesn't mean they are comparable. Protein pellets are a balanced supplement because they include minerals.

[bphillips]

Originally Posted by Peyton

Roasted soybeans aren't a complete feed like any brand protein feed. Just because they have a high TDN doesn't mean they are comparable. Protein pellets are a balanced supplement because they include minerals.

Yea maybe compare that to corn and cmere deer haha

[RRagan83]

Originally Posted by bphillips

I have an email in to my local feed. At $360/ton it can afford to be a little low though

Do you use Angelo Pellets I am interested to see how they stack up . I use their 20% Dream Maker. My deer have really taken to it. Here is the general info from the bag. For the price at $360 a ton I have been pleased with it.

DREAM MAKER™
Exxtreme Racks 20%

Free Roaming
For Deer and Wildlife On Pasture

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS

Crude Protein.............................. Min 20.0%
Crude Fat....................................... Min 3.5%
Crude Fiber.................................... Max 16%
Lysine...........................................M in 0.75%
Calcium......................................... Min 1.4%
Calcium........................................ Max 1.9%
Phosphorus................................. Min 1.10%
Salt.............................................. Min 0.45%
Salt.............................................. . Max 1.0%
Zinc........................................ Min 300 PPM
Copper...................................... Min 75 PPM
Biotin................................. Min 0.40MG/LB
Vitamin A........................ Min 13,300 IU/LB

[TXBRASS]

Originally Posted by Peyton

Roasted soybeans aren't a complete feed like any brand protein feed. Just because they have a high TDN doesn't mean they are comparable. Protein pellets are a balanced supplement because they include minerals.

Understood......thanks

[bphillips]

Originally Posted by RRagan83

Do you use Angelo Pellets I am interested to see how they stack up . I use their 20% Dream Maker. My deer have really taken to it. Here is the general info from the bag. For the price at $360 a ton I have been pleased with it.

DREAM MAKER™
Exxtreme Racks 20%

Free Roaming
For Deer and Wildlife On Pasture

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS

Crude Protein.............................. Min 20.0%
Crude Fat....................................... Min 3.5%
Crude Fiber.................................... Max 16%
Lysine...........................................M in 0.75%
Calcium......................................... Min 1.4%
Calcium........................................ Max 1.9%
Phosphorus................................. Min 1.10%
Salt.............................................. Min 0.45%
Salt.............................................. . Max 1.0%
Zinc........................................ Min 300 PPM
Copper...................................... Min 75 PPM
Biotin................................. Min 0.40MG/LB
Vitamin A........................ Min 13,300 IU/LB

Yep sent an email requesting this feed specifically

[bphillips]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Double Down = 82.6%
L&E = 76.7%
Record Rack 20 =71%
AntlerMax 20 = 67%
Red Chain 20 = 65%
Fehner = 64.7%
MG 18% MVP = 64.7%
MG 20% ST = 60.9%
Red Chain 17 = 60%

Talked to the feed guy at Angelo Pellets and our Exxtreme Racks 20% he said will test mid 70s TDN. He also went on about how you don't want it much higher due to different things with fats, carbs, something with the rumen and so on. That was all over my head haha. He was great though much like DF&G sent me his number right away to talk about it.

[TXBRASS]

Something to remember is to ask for the is the "as received" TDN and not dried. The "as received" is what the actual pellet is and the dried can be over 10% more. When I talked to AntlerMax they first gave me the dried vslue..... He seemed suprised when I asked for the "as received" and then reluctantly gave me the number.

[bphillips]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Something to remember is to ask for the is the "as received" TDN and not dried. The "as received" is what the actual pellet is and the dried can be over 10% more. When I talked to AntlerMax they first gave me the dried vslue..... He seemed suprised when I asked for the "as received" and then reluctantly gave me the number.

Yep that's not dried. We talked about and he even asked what other feeds I was looking at. He knew where they stacked up already

[TXBRASS]

Bphillips,
What number should.i give that feed to add it to the list?

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[bphillips]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Bphillips,
What number should.i give that feed to add it to the list?

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Shoot I'm not sure he said you won't get a specific number without a certain lab sample. Not every batch is exact and he said mid 70s I'd say 74 and be safe. I bet it's at least that good.

[TXBRASS]

Double Down = 82.6%
L&E = 76.7%
Exxtreme Racks 20 = 74%
Record Rack 20 = 71%
AntlerMax 20 = 67%
Red Chain 20 = 65%
Fehner = 64.7%
MG 18% MVP = 64.7%
MG 20% ST = 60.9%
Red Chain 17 = 60%




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[TXBRASS]

Originally Posted by bphillips

Talked to the feed guy at Angelo Pellets and our Exxtreme Racks 20% he said will test mid 70s TDN. He also went on about how you don't want it much higher due to different things with fats, carbs, something with the rumen and so on. That was all over my head haha. He was great though much like DF&G sent me his number right away to talk about it.

I'd love to hear more about "how you don't want it much more higher"....

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[gingib]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

I'd love to hear more about "how you don't want it much more higher"....

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Agree me too!! So maybe 80% is not as good as it sounds?

[RRagan83]

Originally Posted by bphillips

Talked to the feed guy at Angelo Pellets and our Exxtreme Racks 20% he said will test mid 70s TDN. He also went on about how you don't want it much higher due to different things with fats, carbs, something with the rumen and so on. That was all over my head haha. He was great though much like DF&G sent me his number right away to talk about it.

Angelo Pellets are first class in their customer service. I called in an order the last time I was down and they had it pulled and ready when I arrived. When I got out to the ranch I noticed they loaded the wrong protein tub so I called them. With out any hesitation they asked for my address and delivered the right product along with two free protein blocks. I hunt at least 35 mins from them.

[RRagan83]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Double Down = 82.6%
L&E = 76.7%
Exxtreme Racks 20 = 74%
Record Rack 20 = 71%
AntlerMax 20 = 67%
Red Chain 20 = 65%
Fehner = 64.7%
MG 18% MVP = 64.7%
MG 20% ST = 60.9%
Red Chain 17 = 60%




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Really like your list so we can compare maybe we can plug in the per ton cost for each as well. The Exxtreme Rack 20 runs $360 a ton that's bagged.