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Old 05-31-2018, 01:45 AM   #1
TheHammer
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Default "The River and the Wall" Trumps borderwall and wildlife.

First let me start by saying, this isn't an argument for or against the wall. This is aimed at being a mere discussion on what impact the wall would have on wildlife along the border or if we should even care.

I voted for Trump and believe everything he stands for as far as our country goes. I have been following Ben Masters from Fin and Fur films about documentaries on numerous species of wildlife in the state of Texas. He has a new short film coming out this year titled, "The River and the Wall." I was all for a wall, and still think I am in some form, but after reading more into this idea that the wall would have a negative impact on all wildlife involved has me intrigued. Should we even care? Should we just put the stop of illegal immigrantion first and let the wildlife adapt accordingly? I don't have the answers, but I really wanted to get opinions from a group of hunters that share the same passion for pursuing and killing Animals in Deep South Texas, as well as Mexico. I realize the ranches have their own water systems, but anyone who says the river isn't the lifeline for most wildlife down there are kidding themselves.

So being that we have hunters that hunt both sides of the proposed border wall, what are yalls opinions? Should we care about if it affects wildlife? Will it not be enough to even worry about? Or will we completely alter the livelihood of many species along the river. I don't know, but I think it would be cool to get different opinions on the subject. I have hunted in Del Rio, but not close enough to consider it, "on the border." I encourage y'all to look into Ben Masters work, he's a pretty sharp guy when it comes to wildlife.

Here is a link to the trailer

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...le.com%2F&_rdr
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:49 AM   #2
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Here is a link to part National Geographic used.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=smeoiCqS_YU
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:50 AM   #3
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We shouldn't care.
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:52 AM   #4
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Unfortunately for me the well being of humans comes before the well being of wildlife. That being said, I would think it would have a positive impact on the wildlife and would alleviate a lot of the trash that is left behind for the wildlife to swallow and die from. There is plenty of water on the ranches for the wildlife and they will adapt pretty easily. What it will affect is the wildlife that move back and forth across the border.
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:56 AM   #5
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I feel bad for the Americans that have land that will could end up on the wrong side of the wall. Wildlife will adapt and survive.
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:57 AM   #6
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Maybe the wall will finally keep those pesky black panthers from migrating to East Texas.
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:59 AM   #7
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I don’t think we will have to worry about it. I really don’t think it will ever get done.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:00 AM   #8
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Build the wall, the animals will adapt . Nature always does.


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Old 05-31-2018, 08:18 AM   #9
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I've often thought that if we as a country enforced laws and quit giving the handouts to people here illegally, the wall would not be a necessity.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntlerCollector View Post
I feel bad for the Americans that have land that will could end up on the wrong side of the wall. Wildlife will adapt and survive.
I tend to agree with this. Animals have adapted to millions of changes.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:19 AM   #11
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Build the wall, the animals will adapt . Nature always does.


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I lean this way myself.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:27 AM   #12
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Anyone that thinks a wall is going to get built from Pacific to Rio Grande is delusional.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:31 AM   #13
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Build the wall! If we keep allowing millions of people in that will eventually vote Democrat you can kiss your hunting / guns goodbye just like in Mexico so you wonít give much thought to wildlife anyway. They will find a way to manage most of the wildlife, itís not like we have massive migrations of animals from Mexico to the US From one season to another.


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Old 05-31-2018, 08:31 AM   #14
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I don't think the wall will ever get done. The fence that they have now keeps larger animals on one side or the other and they adapted.

I voted for Trump but not for reasons of building the wall but for other reasons. I am not encouraging people to come here illegally but rather do it legally.

The way I see it, if people are still coming that means things are still good here. It's when they stop coming that we will have something to worry about. That would mean that things are not that good here anymore.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlinville View Post
I've often thought that if we as a country enforced laws and quit giving the handouts to people here illegally, the wall would not be a necessity.
This
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Anyone that thinks a wall is going to get built from Pacific to Rio Grande is delusional.
I agree
Even if Trump gets reelected 8 years will not be enough time to complete it from pacific to the gulf.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:39 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Anyone that thinks a wall is going to get built from Pacific to Rio Grande is delusional.
I don't see the wall reaching South Texas "as much as I would like to" but not likely. And I don't think wild life depend on the Rio Grand for a main source of water exclusively. At least not with in the immediate vicinity anyway or Deep South Texas. Perhaps in far west Texas where ranching is not as prevalent as it is here.

Here's my perspective. If illegals can cross and make it past the check points in the brush drinking well water from a canoga so can wild life "especially wildlife".
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlinville View Post
I've often thought that if we as a country enforced laws and quit giving the handouts to people here illegally, the wall would not be a necessity.
Exactly

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Old 05-31-2018, 09:17 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlinville View Post
I've often thought that if we as a country enforced laws and quit giving the handouts to people here illegally, the wall would not be a necessity.
same here
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:22 AM   #20
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I've had a civil discussion with Ben about this subject. I confronted him on the fact he uses Big Bend area as a scare tactic regarding the border wall yet there would never be a wall in that area as it is not a passage point for illegals. He didn't want to discuss that and pointed out that they could decide to put the wall thru that area at a later date. I agreed and said when that discussion happens let's visit the issues regarding that. Until then let's just discuss what IS being done now.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:25 AM   #21
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I doubt it would hurt wildlife at all? The only animals crossing the river are an occasional black bear or mountain lion or maybe a LF deer sometimes. We don't have a mass migration like Africa does so what would it stop? Migratory birds go over it so no harm there.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:29 AM   #22
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Mother Nature finds a away. Don't need a continuous wall. Just strategically placed walls where needed.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:44 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Take Dead Aim View Post
I've had a civil discussion with Ben about this subject. I confronted him on the fact he uses Big Bend area as a scare tactic regarding the border wall yet there would never be a wall in that area as it is not a passage point for illegals. He didn't want to discuss that and pointed out that they could decide to put the wall thru that area at a later date. I agreed and said when that discussion happens let's visit the issues regarding that. Until then let's just discuss what IS being done now.
I gotta be hones, I didn't even think about the wall not even going through that part. Good point.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:45 AM   #24
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So no one thinks it would affect the new Bighorn sheep that have been introduced? I sure would love for us to have a good huntable population
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Old 05-31-2018, 10:00 AM   #25
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Seems to me that with all the technology and drones, the gubment could go about protecting the border without any wall. Ever 100 miles or so build a drone station and let the BP patrol it with thermal imaging drones. If a coyote did bring in a group of people they could follow them and set up a trap for them. Then again I have no idea what I am talking about, just a simple view of things.
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Old 05-31-2018, 10:19 AM   #26
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The wall won't get built, and it doesn't need to.

We need to start prosecuting people who use illegals. That means go to Home Depot, watch the workers get picked up, stop that truck, and make sure everything is legal. Make the temp visa program more accessible like it was under Obama. Then enforce laws already on the book; if they overstay, they get sent home, and are not allowed back for a certain period of time. If they are found here illegally a second time, they get locked up for a certain amount of time.

Once you have stopped the flow stemming from coming here for work, go after criminals running drugs and trafficking people. This can be done with our military, and we can bring them home from battling those sand diggers in the middle east, and let our boys sleep on their home turf.

The wall doesn't need to be built, and shouldn't be built. Enforcement of current laws would go a lot further compared to a wall being built. A wall being built would impact who knows how many thousands of species and people.
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Old 05-31-2018, 10:49 AM   #27
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There will never be a wall built on the Rio. Farm and ranch programs that would support a boundary-free of overgrowth for 3-500 yards along the river where possible would sure help.
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Old 05-31-2018, 10:51 AM   #28
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If you consider a wall stretching from California to the tip of Texas there could possibly be an impact on some of the wildlife. I am not educated enough on the subject of wildlife and their travel patterns to say it would or would not effect any of them.

On a separate note, but related to the wall discussion, this is an interesting video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jRihEaftS0M

Last edited by Pedernal; 05-31-2018 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 05-31-2018, 11:02 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
Build the wall, the animals will adapt . Nature always does.
^^ I couldn't agree more


Quote:
Originally Posted by jlinville View Post
I've often thought that if we as a country enforced laws and quit giving the handouts to people here illegally, the wall would not be a necessity.
That's an awfully big "IF", which means it'll never come to pass.
BUILD THE WALL!!
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Old 05-31-2018, 11:44 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WItoTX View Post
The wall won't get built, and it doesn't need to.

We need to start prosecuting people who use illegals. That means go to Home Depot, watch the workers get picked up, stop that truck, and make sure everything is legal. Make the temp visa program more accessible like it was under Obama. Then enforce laws already on the book; if they overstay, they get sent home, and are not allowed back for a certain period of time. If they are found here illegally a second time, they get locked up for a certain amount of time.

Once you have stopped the flow stemming from coming here for work, go after criminals running drugs and trafficking people. This can be done with our military, and we can bring them home from battling those sand diggers in the middle east, and let our boys sleep on their home turf.

The wall doesn't need to be built, and shouldn't be built. Enforcement of current laws would go a lot further compared to a wall being built. A wall being built would impact who knows how many thousands of species and people.
So you think the wall would impact negatively on wildlife in the area?
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Old 05-31-2018, 11:53 AM   #31
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I do think it would impact wildlife. Pronghorn, bighorn, bears and cats. Would the impact harm populations? I don't know. We do a pretty good job managing these populations on our side of the line. The wall itself seems like a dumb idea to me. Boots on the ground and as it's already been mentioned, enforce the laws we already have.

Last edited by Stoof; 05-31-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by WItoTX View Post
The wall won't get built, and it doesn't need to.

We need to start prosecuting people who use illegals. That means go to Home Depot, watch the workers get picked up, stop that truck, and make sure everything is legal. Make the temp visa program more accessible like it was under Obama. Then enforce laws already on the book; if they overstay, they get sent home, and are not allowed back for a certain period of time. If they are found here illegally a second time, they get locked up for a certain amount of time.

Once you have stopped the flow stemming from coming here for work, go after criminals running drugs and trafficking people. This can be done with our military, and we can bring them home from battling those sand diggers in the middle east, and let our boys sleep on their home turf.

The wall doesn't need to be built, and shouldn't be built. Enforcement of current laws would go a lot further compared to a wall being built. A wall being built would impact who knows how many thousands of species and people.
There's very little that you post on here that I agree with, but on this one, you're spot on. I had a ranch that I leased for 31 years that had over 8 miles of Rio Grande River frontage south of Del Rio. Back when "W" was president, the various agencies post 911 that were involved with homeland security started a pilot program using some gubment grants and other support in the "Del Rio sector" of the Rio Grande called "Zero-Tolerance". Val Verde county with the assistance from these grants built a brand spankin' new jail similar to what Sheriff Joe did out in Arizona. It was cinder block buildings high fences with razor wire, etc. Everyone caught crossing the border was prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for not only illegally crossing the border, but they did complete background checks on them and threw the book at 'em and locked 'em up. The very minimum time they spent in this lock up was 6 months. Border crossings in the 8 mile section we had in this sector went from thousands/month to less than 10/month...

If you build the wall and you don't patrol it and watch it with various technologies, it will just be climbed or tunneled under... so it still takes the manpower to do that. If you're gonna do that, you don't need the wall. What is needed is enforce the dang laws we have now!

Further to the wildlife, the problem with the area where we hunted, and where the main ranch headquarters had large farming operations right on the river is that the proposed wall route put much of the river valley on the MEXICO side of the wall!! Where I hunted would be on the wrong side of the wall, and it was thousands of acres. The proposal was to put "gates" or portals in it to allow for passage of workers/tractors/equipment, etc... with NO regard for wildlife. Wildlife indeed migrates up and down the river. Our property was just south of the city of Del Rio and our deer/turkey/exotic population was much higher than the lower part of the ranch because once wildlife got to that part of the ranch, town cut them off from going farther... It was a good thing for we hunters, but having that wall all up and down the area, would be a very bad thing for wildlife in restricting their natural movements.
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:11 PM   #33
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I used to work the border from Brownsville to Laredo and the farmers and ranchers had small shacks with provisions for migrant workers - HAD - Once the illegal immigrants from south of Mexico started coming in they would stop at the little shacks and then look for the big house and once they found it....

No matter what the impact I say build the wall
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltwaterSlick View Post
There's very little that you post on here that I agree with, but on this one, you're spot on. I had a ranch that I leased for 31 years that had over 8 miles of Rio Grande River frontage south of Del Rio. Back when "W" was president, the various agencies post 911 that were involved with homeland security started a pilot program using some gubment grants and other support in the "Del Rio sector" of the Rio Grande called "Zero-Tolerance". Val Verde county with the assistance from these grants built a brand spankin' new jail similar to what Sheriff Joe did out in Arizona. It was cinder block buildings high fences with razor wire, etc. Everyone caught crossing the border was prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for not only illegally crossing the border, but they did complete background checks on them and threw the book at 'em and locked 'em up. The very minimum time they spent in this lock up was 6 months. Border crossings in the 8 mile section we had in this sector went from thousands/month to less than 10/month...

If you build the wall and you don't patrol it and watch it with various technologies, it will just be climbed or tunneled under... so it still takes the manpower to do that. If you're gonna do that, you don't need the wall. What is needed is enforce the dang laws we have now!

Further to the wildlife, the problem with the area where we hunted, and where the main ranch headquarters had large farming operations right on the river is that the proposed wall route put much of the river valley on the MEXICO side of the wall!! Where I hunted would be on the wrong side of the wall, and it was thousands of acres. The proposal was to put "gates" or portals in it to allow for passage of workers/tractors/equipment, etc... with NO regard for wildlife. Wildlife indeed migrates up and down the river. Our property was just south of the city of Del Rio and our deer/turkey/exotic population was much higher than the lower part of the ranch because once wildlife got to that part of the ranch, town cut them off from going farther... It was a good thing for we hunters, but having that wall all up and down the area, would be a very bad thing for wildlife in restricting their natural movements.
Fully agree. If the wall is built they need to have wildlife corridors like they do in Colorado along I70.

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Old 05-31-2018, 12:36 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WItoTX View Post
The wall won't get built, and it doesn't need to.

We need to start prosecuting people who use illegals. That means go to Home Depot, watch the workers get picked up, stop that truck, and make sure everything is legal. Make the temp visa program more accessible like it was under Obama. Then enforce laws already on the book; if they overstay, they get sent home, and are not allowed back for a certain period of time. If they are found here illegally a second time, they get locked up for a certain amount of time.

Once you have stopped the flow stemming from coming here for work, go after criminals running drugs and trafficking people. This can be done with our military, and we can bring them home from battling those sand diggers in the middle east, and let our boys sleep on their home turf.

The wall doesn't need to be built, and shouldn't be built. Enforcement of current laws would go a lot further compared to a wall being built. A wall being built would impact who knows how many thousands of species and people.


All that sounds great in theory but that ship sailed long ago. None of the current crop of crooks in Washington (and Iím sure plenty more at the state level) have NO WILL to enforce the laws we already have. So hard barriers have to be a secondary solution.


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Old 05-31-2018, 12:45 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TheHammer View Post
So no one thinks it would affect the new Bighorn sheep that have been introduced? I sure would love for us to have a good huntable population
Have you seen where they live? How do you think theyíll build a wall there?
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:48 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Take Dead Aim View Post
I've had a civil discussion with Ben about this subject. I confronted him on the fact he uses Big Bend area as a scare tactic regarding the border wall yet there would never be a wall in that area as it is not a passage point for illegals. He didn't want to discuss that and pointed out that they could decide to put the wall thru that area at a later date. I agreed and said when that discussion happens let's visit the issues regarding that. Until then let's just discuss what IS being done now.
If it is the only area without a wall they will travel through there. look at Nogales, AZ. Worst territory in the country. They still travel through that area like crazy. Nothing will stop the will of those people.

Personally I think the only animals that would suffer would be the sheep and the black bears that come up during the droughts. And yes, they do cross the river and come up into S. Texas.

Last edited by captainsling; 05-31-2018 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:49 PM   #38
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Improbable maybe but impossible? The Chinese did it hundreds of years ago and with no modern technology.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:07 PM   #39
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The main ingredient in any "wall" should start with E-verify. No social or welfare for ANY illegal or Visa overstays.

Shut off the magnet.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:12 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
Have you seen where they live? How do you think theyíll build a wall there?
No I haven't. That's why I stated in my post that I'm not arguing for or against, because I have no idea. I have never seen it
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:02 PM   #41
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Let me get this straight.

We build a wall, and every livestock disease we have been fighting from border crossings virtual becomes eliminated......

BVD and variants
Tick Fever/Babesiois
TB
Etc.


No agruement, build it.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:04 PM   #42
Razrbk89
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The main ingredient in any "wall" should start with E-verify. No social or welfare for ANY illegal or Visa overstays.

Shut off the magnet.
This, and throwing people who knowingly employ illegals in the pen.

Artificial barriers are bad for wildlife. Thatís a fact. High fences, border walls, etc. all impede the natural movement of wildlife and thatís not a positive for ecosystems.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:11 PM   #43
Encinal
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Eminent Domain proceedings alone will outlast Trump's presidency even if he is elected to two terms. The wall isn't happening in rural areas. More manpower is needed in rural areas... and Mexico needs more "incentives" to clog the permeability of THEIR borders. As Mexico's economy improves, Their lack of border security will be just as much a burden to them, as our lack of border security has been to us... because central americans will be stopping in Mexico instead of traveling to the US... in fact, they already are.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:24 PM   #44
batmaninja
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We hunt south of Brownsville every year, like on the Rio Grande south. There is already a wall there, it creates choke points for the BP to focus on. There are also people carrying very large backpacks, which will get you blood pressure going, as well as the white Tahoes.

As far as I could tell the current wall has not effected the white wing doves, the Eurasian doves, or the morning doves.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:57 PM   #45
iamntxhunter
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Mother Nature finds a away. Don't need a continuous wall. Just strategically placed walls where needed.
Which is what the plan is or that is what I understood it to be.
If we didn't have the anchor baby policy, sanctuary cities and free social programs and handouts we wouldn't have the problems with illegal immigrants tothe degree that we do imo.


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Old 05-31-2018, 03:01 PM   #46
J Sweet
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Never seen so many "high fencers" preach about the pitfalls of putting up a high fence. Hahahaha
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Old 05-31-2018, 03:05 PM   #47
WItoTX
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So you think the wall would impact negatively on wildlife in the area?
Absolutely. And the farmers/ranchers who work the land that wildlife feed off of. That actually would be the bigger impact.
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Old 05-31-2018, 03:32 PM   #48
Take Dead Aim
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If it is the only area without a wall they will travel through there. look at Nogales, AZ. Worst territory in the country. They still travel through that area like crazy. Nothing will stop the will of those people.

Personally I think the only animals that would suffer would be the sheep and the black bears that come up during the droughts. And yes, they do cross the river and come up into S. Texas.
I really wasn't talking terrain as much as logistics. It is way way out of the to go through Big Bend area for illegals. Much less they wouldn't make it 100 miles through that dessert. They may try but they cant carry enough water and its not South Texas with houses, tanks or windmills around the corner.
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Old 05-31-2018, 03:44 PM   #49
Charles
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Does anybody know the stats of immigrants that come over through chain migration and the lottery VS illegal crossings?
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Old 05-31-2018, 03:47 PM   #50
TheHammer
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There's very little that you post on here that I agree with, but on this one, you're spot on. I had a ranch that I leased for 31 years that had over 8 miles of Rio Grande River frontage south of Del Rio. Back when "W" was president, the various agencies post 911 that were involved with homeland security started a pilot program using some gubment grants and other support in the "Del Rio sector" of the Rio Grande called "Zero-Tolerance". Val Verde county with the assistance from these grants built a brand spankin' new jail similar to what Sheriff Joe did out in Arizona. It was cinder block buildings high fences with razor wire, etc. Everyone caught crossing the border was prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for not only illegally crossing the border, but they did complete background checks on them and threw the book at 'em and locked 'em up. The very minimum time they spent in this lock up was 6 months. Border crossings in the 8 mile section we had in this sector went from thousands/month to less than 10/month...

If you build the wall and you don't patrol it and watch it with various technologies, it will just be climbed or tunneled under... so it still takes the manpower to do that. If you're gonna do that, you don't need the wall. What is needed is enforce the dang laws we have now!

Further to the wildlife, the problem with the area where we hunted, and where the main ranch headquarters had large farming operations right on the river is that the proposed wall route put much of the river valley on the MEXICO side of the wall!! Where I hunted would be on the wrong side of the wall, and it was thousands of acres. The proposal was to put "gates" or portals in it to allow for passage of workers/tractors/equipment, etc... with NO regard for wildlife. Wildlife indeed migrates up and down the river. Our property was just south of the city of Del Rio and our deer/turkey/exotic population was much higher than the lower part of the ranch because once wildlife got to that part of the ranch, town cut them off from going farther... It was a good thing for we hunters, but having that wall all up and down the area, would be a very bad thing for wildlife in restricting their natural movements.
This is what I'm really looking for, someone that hunted on the border and saw it first hand.

Again, this isn't a thread on the argument of wall no wall, there are already plenty of those. This thread is aimed at being a DISCUSSION on what toll the wall would take on wildlife in that area, if any.
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