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Old 02-13-2018, 01:00 PM   #1
jeremy360
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Default Discuss...45lc barrel threaded 6" then opens to 28 gauge for remainder

Ok, so I like the idea (not execution) of a rossi circuit judge. I like having bird/rat shot handy and 45lc both at the same time..essentially selectable in the gun by cocking the gun twice. Good for snakes, coyote/pig.

I've made and tested necked down 460 brass to fit in my 4 5/8" ruger blackhawk. It uses the full volume of the cylinder of the revolver. The rim of the cartridge goes to the end of the cylinder basically. It puts the taurus judge pattern to shame at 10 yards over and over. I can fit over 5/8 oz shot in it (almost 11/16 oz). Shoots wonderful. With the same gun, I shot a pig behind the shoulder at 102 yards (luck involved) with the 45lc. Pistol is great to carry but a longer shot takes a while to line up and you have to be more careful with sight alignment. Pistol scopes are a little hard to acquire target as well and touchier when aiming long distance with the short sight radius (think riding atv then seeing a running coyote). Id like a smaller rifle/carbine format that would allow for a low power scope. Not a fan of red dot type optics. Would also be nice to squeeze a little more range out of the shot pattern.

The problem with the rossi is its a poor compromise to do both as its not great at either a rifle or shotgun.The main issue is that the barrel is rifled all but the last bit with the straight rifling choke at the end. The huge freebore for the 45lc makes accuracy suffer. The short straight rifled choke doesn't do a whole lot for the shotgun pattern either.

Another problem with the Rossi is that once you have the straight rifled choke in...forget shooting the 45lc. With the choke removed its ok for 45lc...but good luck with shotgun pattern.

The old savage over-unders are bulky and heavy. Would really love to find a compact .233 over .410...but that's a whole other discussion....




So here is the thought:

Chamber a barrel for 45lc. Rifle the first 5 or 6 inches. That's plenty long enough to stabilize the 45lc and get good velocity. Then open up the bore of the barrel to 28 gauge the rest of the way (.550"). Could even put in screw in chokes and not create interference with the 45lc.

So now the questions:

1. Would the pattern be any decent? I get a surprisingly good pattern with my 4 5/8 bbl blackhawk home made loads already. People use shotgun caliber adapters all the time and don't complain about the patterns. Would this be any different (minus the 5" of rifling affect imparted on the shot....which has proven isn't a big deal at the moment.)

2. Would escaping gases around the 45lc once it exited the rifling portion affect accuracy (<100 yards or less..figure keeping in a 3-4" group)?

3. I realize this will not take the place of two separate guns, but could the marginal improvement over the rossi circuit be noticeable?

I'd love to test this theory (or maybe someone else already has and I'm not aware?).

I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts (good and bad). I'll sit back and listen.

-Jeremy
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:13 PM   #2
RJH1
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1 Pattern is gonna suck cause nothing will stop the spin, will through doughnut patterns.

2 If the crown on the rifling is cut good accuracy should be fine

3 no

4 the combo 223/20 guage savages type guns may be more in line with what you want to do. The judge/circuit judge guns are pretty gimmicky and are good to sell, but not so good to use.

A normal revolver with rat shot is about the best combo style gun, but a pistol and a shotgun is considerably better
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:23 PM   #3
jeremy360
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RJH, if the pattern is decent out of the pistol with no barrel, wouldn't a barrel help (some)? I dont really see a doughnut pattern now. Not sure if its because the 4 5/8" rifling is only a short amount or what. I definitely see it out of a bond derringer and out of a taurus judge. 7ft range and the pattern is awful.

Wonder if the design could have some small straight rifling as well down the smooth bore portion.

Last edited by jeremy360; 02-13-2018 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy360 View Post
RJH, if the pattern is decent out of the pistol with no barrel, wouldn't a barrel help (some)? I guess it could have some small straight rifling as well down the smooth bore portion.
Not really. a 28ga is too large to engage a .410 wad and shot column. Therefore not affecting it.

Pistol shot shells work fine for snake ranges. If you are looking for something that will work further than that, the combo barrel over and unders are what you are looking for.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:33 PM   #5
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Super Comanche.
I bought one in 6" to keep in the tool box on my tractor.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:37 PM   #6
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Thanks outbreaker. So the shotgun adapters being sold don't work that well (12 to 20, 28 to 410)?

Kbar, never heard of a comanche...neat rig, but I would imaging would have the same issues as other 45/410 guns. Or no?
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:46 PM   #7
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Thanks outbreaker. So the shotgun adapters being sold don't work that well (12 to 20, 28 to 410)?

Kbar, never heard of a comanche...neat rig, but I would imaging would have the same issues as other 45/410 guns. Or no?
Only ones that I have seen that I know work are the tubes designed to change 12ga to a 20 or 28 or 16 or .410 etc.

The rest I would not spend money on.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:47 PM   #8
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Thanks outbreaker. So the shotgun adapters being sold don't work that well (12 to 20, 28 to 410)?

Kbar, never heard of a comanche...neat rig, but I would imaging would have the same issues as other 45/410 guns. Or no?
Reviews of the shot shell portion seem to be better than the Judge. One went so far as to say shooting skeet or maybe flying birds with it around 30 yards.
They are utilitarian and cheap and I mean real cheap. Its the Hi point of the singleshot world but I got mine to shoot snakes with.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:51 PM   #9
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Reviews of the shot shell portion seem to be better than the Judge. One went so far as to say shooting skeet or maybe flying birds with it around 30 yards.
They are utilitarian and cheap and I mean real cheap. Its the Hi point of the singleshot world but I got mine to shoot snakes with.
For snakes I usually have my .22mag loaded with rat shot.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:56 PM   #10
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Interesting. 20 yards would be more than sufficient. Doesn't address longer shots with 45lc though.

I used the term 28 guage...but I guess the concept could have any bore big enough to not let the 45lc touch it. Add just add a little extra if you wanted a choke. After all, most 410/45 already have the wad going through the 45lc sized bore.

.452+.040 for extra full choke + .010 for extra clearance = .502

Im not for or against...just pondering thoughts.

Thanks for the input yall.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by jeremy360 View Post
Interesting. 20 yards would be more than sufficient. Doesn't address longer shots with 45lc though.

I used the term 28 guage...but I guess the concept could have any bore big enough to not let the 45lc touch it. Add just add a little extra if you wanted a choke. After all, most 410/45 already have the wad going through the 45lc sized bore.

.452+.040 for extra full choke + .010 for extra clearance = .502

Im not for or against...just pondering thoughts.

Thanks for the input yall.
Would not work because the wad would not engage the straight rifling.

A "screw on" muzzle device that would use a forcing cone and a constriction to .410 or tighter might work.

Take it on and off..
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy360 View Post
RJH, if the pattern is decent out of the pistol with no barrel, wouldn't a barrel help (some)? I dont really see a doughnut pattern now. Not sure if its because the 4 5/8" rifling is only a short amount or what. I definitely see it out of a bond derringer and out of a taurus judge. 7ft range and the pattern is awful.

Wonder if the design could have some small straight rifling as well down the smooth bore portion.
The shorter barrels do tend to to work better, but are still going to through a doughnuts pattern at distance (15 or so yards). There is really no way to shoot bullets out of a smooth bore or shot out of rifled barrels with much hope of accuracy. The straight rifled choke tubes or rifled slugs are about the best you can hope for in a combo barrel, but that is about it.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:05 PM   #13
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I aint no gunsmith or bullit guru but I believe you want to constrict shotshells at their departure from the barrel to give the best pattern possible.

As far as that 22mag shotshell........ about 2or 3 weeks ago, I had to lay on my belly and shoot one that was 4 and a half feet long under a trailer. I want them dead and hopefully in two pieces with one shot.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:05 PM   #14
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Outbreaker, I use the 45lc with the loads as is. However, its not great for the longer 45lc
shots (read Im not great with longer shots on a pistol). We try to keep the frog population up and try to keep the snake population down in the ponds to help. Its nice having the extra range beyond what rat shot is good for. All this could be solved with the over under guns out there (minus bulkiness and only having one shot of each type). Just thought id throw this out and see what others thought. Even a .22 mag rifle could do a lot. Rat shot available, and good for ear holing. Could even go the other route of a 410 with slugs.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy360 View Post
Outbreaker, I use the 45lc with the loads as is. However, its not great for the longer 45lc
shots (read Im not great with longer shots on a pistol). We try to keep the frog population up and try to keep the snake population down in the ponds to help. Its nice having the extra range beyond what rat shot is good for. All this could be solved with the over under guns out there (minus bulkiness and only having one shot of each type). Just thought id throw this out and see what others thought. Even a .22 mag rifle could do a lot. Rat shot available, and good for ear holing. Could even go the other route of a 410 with slugs.
I have done what you are doing. 10/22 and lots of ammo. Killing unwanteds out of farm tanks.

Today I would go the same route......but now it would be suppressed.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:27 PM   #16
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Here are a couple of other things I looked at in my research with why I specifically bought what I did:
A empty and fired .357 round can be shot backwards out of a 410 shell that you have removed the shot and powder from. This is no different than what they shoot as a primered plastic bullet. It will shock and stun and sometimes kill rats on the spot. This is good for using inside of a barn without alot of risk in blowing holes or a bunch of shot ricocheting. I actually made some FOC darts to do this. Same principal as a blow dart being FOC.
Second, there is some information out there about loading .444 casing up and shooting a bigger shot charges out of better quality guns. It was cautioned against using the Comanche and now that I have it in hand, I definitely agree..... not a wise idea.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:00 PM   #17
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Thanks K-bar. Interesting. Yes, I have read on the .444, as well as I have fireformed and trimmed a few 303 british as brass 410 loads. 444 are the better option but the 303s do work.

I always thought if someone could come up with a 45-70 shot load that combatted the rifling issue that they would really be on to something....
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:10 PM   #18
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Oh, and I forgot to mention that I actually lube the shot with 45% Lee Liquid Alox, 45% Johnson's Paste Wax and 10% Mineral Spirits "Recluse" mixture from the castboolit forum. It makes a very thin waxy coating that seems to help the shot stick together or maybe act as a lube that makes the outside of the shot column act as a ball bearing keeping the interior column of shot from rotating. I honestly have no idea which. I will say though, after doing that step, my patterns improved tremendously. Night and day difference in size and uniformity. You could tell when shooting a revolver which one was which just by the drastic difference in the pattern. And yes I have tried waxed buckshot loads. Didn't really work, but this for some reason works well with the 45lc homemade rat shot loads.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:44 PM   #19
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I also tried to talk with Bond Arms to see if they could do a long drilling barrel and do a .233 over .410. Would have been a neat little rig. Something like this.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:28 PM   #20
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Look up barrel liners. They have lots of options for 223 over 12/20. 410 barrel liner would be too thin. Imo there is a problem with cup pressure doing 45 colt over a 12 gauge with a liner. Most shotguns are rated 11000-12000 cup. 45 colt loads can go up from 28000. Imo lockup on a shotgun may not hold or barrel welds may not hold. I have not seen any info on how well the barrel liner conversion kits actually hold position in the the barrel.Worth the reseaching.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:06 PM   #21
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Yep closest thing is the m6 survival....22 hornet over 410. There's 3030 over 12 and 20 and other combos.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:25 PM   #22
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Look up Valmet 412. I'd much rather have one of those any day over a Savage 24. You can get multiple barrel sets in rifle and shotgun, and in combos, for the same gun. Wide range of both rifle calibers and shotgun gauges, and the combo of each.
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Old 02-14-2018, 06:41 AM   #23
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Looked up velmet. Looks neat. However can't leave ammo in the gun without it being cocked.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:11 AM   #24
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H&R makes a 45/410 shotgun barrel.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:14 AM   #25
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Yes but any chamber that accepts 410 typically hurts 45 accuracy. There's a lot of 45/410 guns out there. All with the same inherent flaw.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:31 AM   #26
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Default More food for thought....

More food for thought.

Hastings makes a straight rifled shotgun barrel to stop the wad and shot column for spinning. Seems to show that it works, but its a lot of work for very little benefit in traditional shotgun as the wad typically spins very little.

That being said...it might have more benefit in this type of application...
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:30 PM   #27
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I have done a lot of playing with shot cartridges out of pistols and can tell you that if you get good patterns out of your Ruger then you're lucky. The very next one might not do well at all, even another Ruger. There seems to be no rhyme or reason which will do well. I have a S&W model 36 with a 2" barrel that shoots the Speer shot caps with great patterns but my model 66 with 4" barrel doesn't perform at all. My very old Ruger Blackhawk with the 6 1/2" barrel shoots them well as well.

My Contender has the old .45 LC barrel on it with the straight tube on the end that is supposed to take the spin out. I don't know if it does but it does shoot .410s with great patterns and I have killed cotton tails past 25 yards with it many times.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:19 AM   #28
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I’d probably just buy the Savage .22 mag over .410 and be done with it. It doesn’t have the power of a .223 obviously, but for varmints it should do the job.

https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/Model42

I think the only solution that will be reasonably affordable is finding an over/under or side by side shotgun with double triggers and using a rifle/pistol cartridge insert in one of the barrels.

http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm

They make inserts up to 18” long for $150. There are no .223 options due to pressures, but you can go to .22 hornet in a .410, .30-30 in a 20 gauge, and .45 LC, .45-70, or 7.62x39 in a 12 gauge.

For under $600, you could have the complete setup brand new with no gunsmithing.

https://www.stoegerindustries.com/co...igger-shotguns

The other option is a lever gun in .44 mag or .45 LC with a CCI shot shell in the chamber and regular ammunition in the magazine. Just point and pull the trigger to blast a snake, or rack the lever first to shoot a coyote or hog.

Last edited by gatorgrizz27; 02-18-2018 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:17 PM   #29
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Definitely thought about the SxS option and a barrel adapter. Would make it permanent to minimize drift over time.
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