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Old 05-23-2018, 09:44 AM   #101
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My brother is a Border Patrol Agent, Ex Combat Recon Scout... has hundreds if not thousands of hours of Range time. When he retires from being an agent in a few years he is wanting to get into teaching. I would have no problem with him carrying on campus. I would trust him behind the trigger before most police officers. And even the BP does drill on how to handle school shootings. They just completed as training in Del Rio. And I would expect that any teacher who is allowed to carry would also have to have extensive training.
In perfect agreement. I too am a FLETC grad or CBP Field Operations. Upon graduation with my HK P2000 .40 I could paint a face onto a target at 25 yds. Now with little range time in the last year not even close.
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:55 AM   #102
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The fallacy with that lies in what a Veteran is. First off the vast majority of veterans come from a non combat MOS and have very little firearms experience (in comparison to a Combat MOS) other than a past (up to 30 years as you say) basic rifle marksmanship qualification that was done on a quarterly basis. Now you then must understand that Officers, Pilots, Spec Ops, MPs and Medics I may be missing a few) are the only ones that carry a side arm. Here is the Military M9 qualification standards. As you can clearly see military training with a side arm has little to no practical bearing on taking out an armed gunman amongst students in a populated building.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...23-35/appa.htm

Those that train regularly with weapon systems are mostly Combat MOS which are Armor, Artillery and Infantry and then the MOS's I outlined above.

All three combat MOS's will destroy, suppress or neutralize the enemy by overwhelming means of fire power. If you want half the school slaughtered then call in the Infantry, if you want the walls torn down and all vehicles in the parking lots and half the students dead call in Armor. Or call in Arty and just kill everyone and leave a crater where the school once was. (Hyperbole)

Im not saying there aren't veterans that could do what is needed in a school shooting but the vast majority have not been trained to do so. In fact the vast majority of the military never is issued a pistol or qualifies with one.

Simply put; in no way whatsoever is being a veteran indicative of being an expert pistol marksman.

FYI, I am a veteran and would never take a shot in a crowded school unless the target was isolated or I could get a contact shot and I had put in sufficient range time which a CHL is not.


100 times better than the system in place now.

We're talking about teenage cowards, just the presence of a few armed personnel is all that is really necessary to stop 90% of these soft headed pricks.


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Old 05-23-2018, 10:09 AM   #103
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100 times better than the system in place now.

We're talking about teenage cowards, just the presence of a few armed personnel is all that is really necessary to stop 90% of these soft headed pricks.


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There is no system in place now apparently. Besides society being the moral equivalents of a piece of dog **** right now there is another point I have a theory about why these things are happening.

Highschools now are massive. Giant systems like prisons almost. Santa Fe High: Demographics[edit]

As of 2018 the school had about 1,500 students, with the majority being Hispanic and non-Hispanic white and with 24% being classified as low income.[7]

How easy is it for a wolf to hide among that many sheep? These school incidents seem to be happening at large schools. No way teachers in that size of a system can detect a student is mentally ill when they only see him for an hour once or twice a week as well as a thousand plus other students. The Woodlands HS states 4500 students? How is that possibly safe. The larger the school the greater the chance for something bad to happen not just by the law of averages but because of what I have outlined above.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:14 AM   #104
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I have a daughter in Highschool and have taught her as best I can of what to do in these types of situations and now thinking about it a refresher is in the works for tonight.

I have a baby on the way right now. I have no desire to send them to a Public HS one day if they do not drastically reduce the number of students per school and put in metal detectors at bottle necks where armed and specially trained police are present.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:59 AM   #105
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The fallacy with that lies in what a Veteran is. First off the vast majority of veterans come from a non combat MOS and have very little firearms experience (in comparison to a Combat MOS) other than a past (up to 30 years as you say) basic rifle marksmanship qualification that was done on a quarterly basis. Now you then must understand that Officers, Pilots, Spec Ops, MPs and Medics I may be missing a few) are the only ones that carry a side arm. Here is the Military M9 qualification standards. As you can clearly see military training with a side arm has little to no practical bearing on taking out an armed gunman amongst students in a populated building.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...23-35/appa.htm

Those that train regularly with weapon systems are mostly Combat MOS which are Armor, Artillery and Infantry and then the MOS's I outlined above.

All three combat MOS's will destroy, suppress or neutralize the enemy by overwhelming means of fire power. If you want half the school slaughtered then call in the Infantry, if you want the walls torn down and all vehicles in the parking lots and half the students dead call in Armor. Or call in Arty and just kill everyone and leave a crater where the school once was. (Hyperbole)

Im not saying there aren't veterans that could do what is needed in a school shooting but the vast majority have not been trained to do so. In fact the vast majority of the military never is issued a pistol or qualifies with one.

Simply put; in no way whatsoever is being a veteran indicative of being an expert pistol marksman.

FYI, I am a veteran and would never take a shot in a crowded school unless the target was isolated or I could get a contact shot and I had put in sufficient range time which a CHL is not.
ditto
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:30 AM   #106
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I like this specialized training for LE assigned to schools. Take a look and check out your ISD to see if they use this training resource or something similar. If not I would ask why the hell not already. Klein and Conroe ISD are trained in it.


https://www.alerrt.org/
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:35 AM   #107
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I've been invited by Governor Abbott to go to Austin tommorow for a Round table disscusion. While sitting here worrying about my son I've purposely tried not to focus on any political agendas. I've only concerned my self with prayers him. That gave me a peace and calm that allowed me to think open minded about alot of thing. I plan on sitting down tonight and writing down my thoughts and feelings. This tragedy shouldn't spark a gun debate. Evil will happen no matter what, the debate is what to do to limit its impact.

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Old 05-23-2018, 11:41 AM   #108
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I have a daughter in Highschool and have taught her as best I can of what to do in these types of situations and now thinking about it a refresher is in the works for tonight.

I have a baby on the way right now. I have no desire to send them to a Public HS one day if they do not drastically reduce the number of students per school and put in metal detectors at bottle necks where armed and specially trained police are present.
Are you against having teachers and volunteers armed in school? Only specially trained police?
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:46 PM   #109
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I've been invited by Governor Abbott to go to Austin tommorow for a Round table disscusion. While sitting here worrying about my son I've purposely tried not to focus on any political agendas. I've only concerned my self with prayers him. That gave me a peace and calm that allowed me to think open minded about alot of thing. I plan on sitting down tonight and writing down my thoughts and feelings. This tragedy shouldn't spark a gun debate. Evil will happen no matter what, the debate is what to do to limit its impact.

Hoggslayer

I will say a prayer for you tonight that you will have a clear mind.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:51 PM   #110
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I like this specialized training for LE assigned to schools. Take a look and check out your ISD to see if they use this training resource or something similar. If not I would ask why the hell not already. Klein and Conroe ISD are trained in it.


https://www.alerrt.org/

Burnet CISD and Burnet PD/Sheriff has done this. They also on a regular basis do mock drills on the weekends at the various campus' in town. The City and School Board yesterday came to agreement to where as each Campus will have at minimum one Police officer on each Campus all day and during morning and afternoon (when most shooting occur) Have additional officers patrolling the parking lots/campus's. I think this is a great start for our little town.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:15 PM   #111
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Are you against having teachers and volunteers armed in school? Only specially trained police?
No, the first group you described Im fine with taking a shot if the target is isolated from other students or a contact shot is possible. Anyone firing into a crowd of children better have specialized training in my opinion. Very specialized; like the very far end of the bell curve specialized. So two different scenarios.

CHL carriers should be able to have a weapon on them if the school isn't going to have metal detectors. The gun free zone I don't agree with.

Last edited by J Sweet; 05-23-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:18 PM   #112
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Burnet CISD and Burnet PD/Sheriff has done this. They also on a regular basis do mock drills on the weekends at the various campus' in town. The City and School Board yesterday came to agreement to where as each Campus will have at minimum one Police officer on each Campus all day and during morning and afternoon (when most shooting occur) Have additional officers patrolling the parking lots/campus's. I think this is a great start for our little town.
Awesome to hear.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:21 PM   #113
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You have any ideas on how to stop school shootings?
Yes, but nothing most people don't want to hear. Like good old parents raising kids the right way. Allowing and encouraging parents to spank kids. Allowing discipline back in schools. Make parents work instead of living off welfare. Letting God back in schools.

You know, just stupid stuff like that.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:27 PM   #114
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Yes, but nothing most people don't want to hear. Like good old parents raising kids the right way. Allowing and encouraging parents to spank kids. Allowing discipline back in schools. Make parents work instead of living off welfare. Letting God back in schools.

You know, just stupid stuff like that.
That's a great wish list. Nothing wrong with it. I was thinking of something that might actually stop a bad guy with a gun. Thanks.

Last edited by Traildust; 05-23-2018 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:25 PM   #115
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That's a great wish list. Nothing wrong with it. I was thinking of something that might actually stop a bad guy with a gun. Thanks.
A good guy with good marksmanship
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:32 AM   #116
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That's a great wish list. Nothing wrong with it. I was thinking of something that might actually stop a bad guy with a gun. Thanks.
It's called creating or going back to having decent people in society.

Of course it won't happen but neither will all your dreams of people walking around with guns and that making everyone safe.

If we have bad guys then people are going to get shot or blown up. You can buy protection here and there but they will just shoot in the other places. You can't stop crazy..Period.

And as said 100,000 times go ahead and spend another 10 billion on metal detectors and armed guards at every single school. Then when the next shooter shoots kids on a bus I'll say told you so. Then you can arm every bus. Heck may want to have armored buses! And then bus stops..and on and on.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:38 AM   #117
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Yes, but nothing most people don't want to hear. Like good old parents raising kids the right way. Allowing and encouraging parents to spank kids. Allowing discipline back in schools. Make parents work instead of living off welfare. Letting God back in schools.

You know, just stupid stuff like that.
I have always wondered what people mean by putting God "back" in schools.
How much God were you taught in public school?

Spanking ALL kids is dumb. Has been proven. Some kids need spanked, others dont.

I do agree that a stronger sense of respect and discipline need to be had on all school levels.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:52 AM   #118
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I have always wondered what people mean by putting God "back" in schools.
How much God were you taught in public school?

Spanking ALL kids is dumb. Has been proven. Some kids need spanked, others dont.

I do agree that a stronger sense of respect and discipline need to be had on all school levels.

Religious or not most rationally minded people agree on the social mores and laws built from them that are also found in modern Christian teachings. I know some agnostics that have a stronger moral compass than some Christians. I think the point he was making is society is slipping away from those mores.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:07 AM   #119
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Religious or not most rationally minded people agree on the social mores and laws built from them that are also found in modern Christian teachings. I know some agnostics that have a stronger moral compass than some Christians. I think the point he was making is society is slipping away from those mores.
And my point was - we had a pledge and never heard anything else in school about God in public school.

And like you, the most judgmental / hypocritical people I know are Christians.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:40 AM   #120
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Like with most things in life, there is not black and white answer. I firmly believe that culture has a large part in these tragedies. I think most of us on this site agree that it isnít a gun problem. So what is it then?

Nothing will work to stop this if we continue to look at it from a re-action standpoint. Pro-active is how you stop it from happening. Until we can change the present culture of things, all we have is reaction.

Like riverrat says, we could put the kids in fort knox, with security everywhere. Bad people will find a way. Busses, field trips, school plays, prom etcÖ bad people will find a way. And each time they constrict the laws/rules for everyone to try and stop a few. You rule for the majority, not the exceptions.

In Florida, I understand that kid was already on administrators radar, but they didnít want to submit him into whatever program or disciplinary actions because it would add to the districts totals for bad seeds.

We have taken the power away from the schools and teachers. My wifeís a teacher (so is her sister), she canít do anything to correct a kids behavior. My kids canít fail tests, they just get to keep retaking them. Missed homework can just be turned in laterÖ. There are no consequences for the kids actions. There was just an article the other day about a school district changing students grades to they donít lose state/federal funding. This may seem like rambling, but I do believe the system has slowly morphed into one that lifts everyone up, to the point of hiding potential deadly characteristics. Parents are too quick to side with their kids when steps are taken at school. Look at the response from the greek father, his first statement to the public contained the point that he felt like a victim too. Absurd, itís not about you. No sense of ownership. His next thing was please donít kill him. Why? 40+ years in prison on the taxpayerís dime. What possible benefit will his life bring? Apparently this kid also when against the dress code by wearing the trench coat, all the time. Send his butt home!, or make him wear a PE uniform all day like we did.

For the comment above about how spanking kids doesnít work???? What snowflake research determined that? When properly administered, even the threat of paddling was enough to keep myself and many others in line. Everybody had a coach with a special paddle, one with holes in it. Ha ha


Throw metal detectors up to appease the mob.
Funding for schools shouldnít be based on schools performance. (districts are being shown to manipulate results anyway)
Let kids fail! Let them have consequences for their actions.
and start backing the teachers/administrators on the ground level. Sister-in-law has told me stories of her getting her butt kicked by students, chairs thrown etcÖ only to see the kid the next day in class.


In many of these cases weíve had systems already in place that could have better prevented the escalation but people in authority were too worried about sounding alarms in fear of reprisal. No action, in many cases is the same as the wrong action. Same thing with most of the terrorist that have hit us. How many times have you heard, joe bloe was already on some FBI watch list.

These kids have not been from low income families, had a hard life etc.. they have been privileged white collar suburban kids that canít deal with life.

I know this is a close subject for some, and Iím not looking to ruffle any feathers. but Iím not going to apologize if I offend you either.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:46 AM   #121
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And my point was - we had a pledge and never heard anything else in school about God in public school.

And like you, the most judgmental / hypocritical people I know are Christians.
Im lost on the emphasis in your last statement. Is it that you are saying I am judgmental and hypocritical or that the most hypocritical judgmental people I know are Christians?
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:50 AM   #122
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Im lost on the emphasis in your last statement. Is it that you are saying I am judgmental and hypocritical or that the most hypocritical judgmental people I know are Christians?
Not you at all, lol.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:31 AM   #123
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It's called creating or going back to having decent people in society.

Of course it won't happen but neither will all your dreams of people walking around with guns and that making everyone safe.

If we have bad guys then people are going to get shot or blown up. You can buy protection here and there but they will just shoot in the other places. You can't stop crazy..Period.

And as said 100,000 times go ahead and spend another 10 billion on metal detectors and armed guards at every single school. Then when the next shooter shoots kids on a bus I'll say told you so. Then you can arm every bus. Heck may want to have armored buses! And then bus stops..and on and on.
That makes sense. Let's not change a thing. It's working so well. Cowering in a corner and praying the shooter doesn't come in your classroom seems like the best option. When it happens again....and it will ( if we don't do something to stop the crazy from entering the school ), I can say I told you so.

Your president already allocated 4 billion dollars last month to school safety. Why are you worried about the money....it's already spent.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:10 PM   #124
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https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/637216002

How about the system they use in Israel?
They are the best in the world on stopping these type of things.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:31 AM   #125
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https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/637216002

How about the system they use in Israel?
They are the best in the world on stopping these type of things.
Oh my god USA Today lol. Did you see the next article down?

" Would the Founders want our kids to die in school shootings like Santa Fe? I doubt it."

Yes, our founding fathers wrote the BOR specifically so that in a couple hundred years children could be shot by other children. Yes that is exactly what they wanted. Journalism is so effing dead.
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Old 05-25-2018, 01:14 PM   #126
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**** right. USA Today. I read articles from both sides. Listening to one sides story and not the other only makes you narrow minded. Name one country in this world that is better at protecting their people than Israel. I would certainly have discussions with them and cherry pick some ideas. That would be a hell of a lot better than what we are doing now. I just spent a week in Washington DC on the hill speaking to several congressmen and senators and none of them have any answers at this point. The only thing they could tell you is it is on the top of their agenda and they are doing everything they can. So far there has only been arguing and discontent among the two parties so nothing can make it to the floor.
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Old 05-25-2018, 01:43 PM   #127
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**** right. USA Today. I read articles from both sides. Listening to one sides story and not the other only makes you narrow minded. Name one country in this world that is better at protecting their people than Israel. I would certainly have discussions with them and cherry pick some ideas. That would be a hell of a lot better than what we are doing now. I just spent a week in Washington DC on the hill speaking to several congressmen and senators and none of them have any answers at this point. The only thing they could tell you is it is on the top of their agenda and they are doing everything they can. So far there has only been arguing and discontent among the two parties so nothing can make it to the floor.


Well ridding the country of the scourge of feel good gun free zones would be a start.


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Old 05-27-2018, 08:17 AM   #128
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**** tough read from a Santa Fe mother.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/a...ta-fe-shooting


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Old 05-27-2018, 08:43 AM   #129
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**** tough read from a Santa Fe mother.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/a...ta-fe-shooting


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" I tell her it's time to shut off social media and put the phone away."

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