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Old 03-14-2019, 03:53 PM   #1
bcj jones
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Default I hate arrows

Still trying to find the right weight of arrow to shoot. I asked this on another thread but have had no responses. I just added some weight to my arrows because I wanted more impact and penetration. I'm shooting a Halon 6 at 27" and 70lbs. All my arrows weight 553-555 grains total with 100 grain tips cut at 28". Now that i'm reading this maybe im way too heavy but I was recommended to try and get about 8 grains per lb of draw weight. Thats about 16 GPI. Am I way off shooting them this heavy? Shooting Easton Axis 340 spine arrows

They definitely thump the bag more than the 430ish I was shooting them at before but im sure there moving pretty slow compared to before.
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:11 PM   #2
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Honestly its whatever performance you are looking for and how your bow shoots the particular arrow. I work in an archery shop and I usually suggest a a happy medium. 8 grains will definitely get you more speed and you shouldn't have any penetration issues. I shoot 60 pounds with a 29 inch draw. My arrows are GT XT hunters in 400 or 340 spine. My arrows weigh around 400 grains and at 28 inches long they shoot through everything. Your broadheads also are deciding factor to your penetration. A Magnus 2 or 4 blade or a Slick Trick will out penetrate say a Rage all day..
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcj jones View Post
Still trying to find the right weight of arrow to shoot. I asked this on another thread but have had no responses. I just added some weight to my arrows because I wanted more impact and penetration. I'm shooting a Halon 6 at 27" and 70lbs. All my arrows weight 553-555 grains total with 100 grain tips cut at 28". Now that i'm reading this maybe im way too heavy but I was recommended to try and get about 8 grains per lb of draw weight. Thats about 16 GPI. Am I way off shooting them this heavy? Shooting Easton Axis 340 spine arrows



They definitely thump the bag more than the 430ish I was shooting them at before but im sure there moving pretty slow compared to before.


How did you get a 27Ē 340 Axis over 550gr?
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:39 PM   #4
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How are you adding weight to your arrows, if you're adding it to the point your arrows are going to be way to weak.

550grains at 70 lbs is pretty close to 8 grains per pound, which is a pretty good overall weight, with good trajectory.
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:05 PM   #5
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Within reason you can never be too heavy IMO. 500-550 grains of TAW is pretty solid.


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Old 03-14-2019, 06:15 PM   #6
bcj jones
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How did you get a 27” 340 Axis over 550gr?
14 gauge electric wire! Added 130 grains of it which is about 6 inches or so. Balances out fine with still more weight in the front

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Old 03-14-2019, 06:40 PM   #7
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I may need to get down to about 500 grains. My short draw length is hindering me a little. Just went and shot at 40 and using an HHA optimizer lite I’m inching towards to top of the adjustment. Not even sure if there’s enough to get out to site it in at 60
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:41 PM   #8
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The weight I’m adding is toward the rear of the arrow
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:56 PM   #9
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The weight Iím adding is toward the rear of the arrow


What is your reasoning for adding weight to the rear of your shafts?


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Old 03-14-2019, 06:58 PM   #10
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https://youtu.be/LEBe-gqAoEU


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Old 03-14-2019, 07:16 PM   #11
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Default I hate arrows

This is the set up Troy sent me to try out.
All of the weight is in the front of the shafts,
Havenít had a chance to hunt with them yet but my bows are much quieter and man do they whop my target!!

I shoot 70lbs and have a short draw length of 26.5Ē

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Old 03-14-2019, 07:29 PM   #12
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Thanks for the info! This is mostly just to try a heavier weight arrow. I’ve been playing around with different weights. He reason it’s towards the rear is solely because I can shove the end of the wire into the knock and not have it move around in the arrow shifting the weight. I’ll eventually do as you did and buy some brass inserts with some add on weight and put it all up front.

I know he makes fun of spine rating but once I find a good weight I may have to go down in spine rating

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Old 03-14-2019, 07:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by bcj jones View Post
Thanks for the info! This is mostly just to try a heavier weight arrow. Iíve been playing around with different weights. He reason itís towards the rear is solely because I can shove the end of the wire into the knock and not have it move around in the arrow shifting the weight. Iíll eventually do as you did and buy some brass inserts with some add on weight and put it all up front


There you go brother!
You wonít be disappointed


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Old 03-14-2019, 07:39 PM   #14
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I've added weight to arrows before by inserting a full length piece of Stihl .105 trimmer string. The balance point of the arrow remains about the same like that. I can't recall right now how much that stuff weighs per inch, but it increases arrow weight, and if you wanted to increase the weight less, you could use a smaller diameter string. I just checked, a 25 1/2 piece inserted into my Easton FMJ 250's increases the finished weight from 712 grains to about 780 grains. This with the 75 grain insert already in the front. These do hit hard, and the bow is very quiet. The downside is the trajectory..

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Old 03-14-2019, 08:14 PM   #15
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Pig, what spine arrow you running?
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:21 PM   #16
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So, what are you looking for. From what I read you are wanting to increase penetration.

How do you increase penetration with out buying s faster bow. MASS. mass is the only way. Can you do things to improve your existing arrow yes. Broadhead choice. The best head for penetration is a two blade cut on contact. And a long slender is the best. The worst is a Mech head that requires lots of ke to open.

Let’s look at what you will be hunting. If you are hunting deer in Texas mid 400 with the correct head will do you just fine. Keep the shot in the Magic V. If you prefer heads that require more energy to penetrate then you must increase mass.

Now, as you noticed I never said anything about velocity. You can increase penetration by increaseing velocity. But you cannot increase penetration by increasing velocity with the same bow. This gets us back to buying a faster bow.

So, what did all that bull**** mean. Stay above 500gr get a good head and go kill. Don’t worry about velocity. Mass is your friend.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:27 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by bcj jones View Post
14 gauge electric wire! Added 130 grains of it which is about 6 inches or so. Balances out fine with still more weight in the front


Not the right way to go about this.


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Old 03-14-2019, 09:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigstika1978 View Post
This is the set up Troy sent me to try out.
All of the weight is in the front of the shafts,
Havenít had a chance to hunt with them yet but my bows are much quieter and man do they whop my target!!

I shoot 70lbs and have a short draw length of 26.5Ē

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Yup! Troy took me from 412 to 592 grains. The only pass through I had on a pig before was a gut shot. I busted through all kinds of ribs like butter on this guy.
That's the exit. Entry was on the back end of the V, and he was about broadside. Made it less than 20 yards before he layed down.

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Old 03-14-2019, 09:35 PM   #19
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Yup! Troy took me from 412 to 592 grains. The only pass through I had on a pig before was a gut shot. I busted through all kinds of ribs like butter on this guy.
That's the exit. Entry was on the back end of the V, and he was about broadside. Made it less than 20 yards before he layed down.

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Thatís awesome!!
The man is the real deal!!



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Old 03-14-2019, 09:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by tradslam View Post
Pig, what spine arrow you running?


Carbon Xpress Maxima Hunters dual spine 250ís.
Gold Tip Hunter XTís 340ís.
Black Eagle Spartans 250ís.
Black Eagle Rampage 300ís.


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Old 03-14-2019, 09:48 PM   #21
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Thank you for the replies everyone! More info certainly helps.

Muddy fuzzy obviously I know you know a little about arrows lol. What’s wrong with adding weight with some wire? People add weight in all kinds of weird various ways
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:49 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
So, what are you looking for. From what I read you are wanting to increase penetration.

How do you increase penetration with out buying s faster bow. MASS. mass is the only way. Can you do things to improve your existing arrow yes. Broadhead choice. The best head for penetration is a two blade cut on contact. And a long slender is the best. The worst is a Mech head that requires lots of ke to open.

Letís look at what you will be hunting. If you are hunting deer in Texas mid 400 with the correct head will do you just fine. Keep the shot in the Magic V. If you prefer heads that require more energy to penetrate then you must increase mass.

Now, as you noticed I never said anything about velocity. You can increase penetration by increaseing velocity. But you cannot increase penetration by increasing velocity with the same bow. This gets us back to buying a faster bow.

So, what did all that bull**** mean. Stay above 500gr get a good head and go kill. Donít worry about velocity. Mass is your friend.


This^^^^


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Old 03-14-2019, 09:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by bcj jones View Post
Thank you for the replies everyone! More info certainly helps.

Muddy fuzzy obviously I know you know a little about arrows lol. Whatís wrong with adding weight with some wire? People add weight in all kinds of weird various ways
I won't answer for him, but I think the main problem is adding weight to the rear. I would use some JB weld, or something and glue any added weight to the front. With weight in the front, or even over all, it should fly straight. When you have more weight in the back, things start trying to fly sideways, because the weight wants to get out front.

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Old 03-14-2019, 10:05 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by pigstika1978 View Post
Carbon Xpress Maxima Hunters dual spine 250ís.
Gold Tip Hunter XTís 340ís.
Black Eagle Spartans 250ís.
Black Eagle Rampage 300ís.


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I like the black eagle arrows. I shot 400 spine renegades before. Changed to 300 spine and added 100 grains to the back of the bone crusher inserts. Also switched to 125 grain Magnus stinger buzzcuts from 100 grain Rage hypos. I plan to try the hypos again, just to see how they do with the weight increase. Gotta rule out the fact that it might just be switching to the fixed blades. Might also try shooting fixed blades on my lighter arrows. I wish I would have been this interested in learning stuff when I was in school. Lol

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Old 03-14-2019, 10:18 PM   #25
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I like the black eagle arrows. I shot 400 spine renegades before. Changed to 300 spine and added 100 grains to the back of the bone crusher inserts. Also switched to 125 grain Magnus stinger buzzcuts from 100 grain Rage hypos. I plan to try the hypos again, just to see how they do with the weight increase. Gotta rule out the fact that it might just be switching to the fixed blades. Might also try shooting fixed blades on my lighter arrows. I wish I would have been this interested in learning stuff when I was in school. Lol

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Iíve never been a fan of mechanical heads but Iíve killed a few pigs with them.
My first go to fixed blade was the Shuttle Tís
When they were still made by Tight point.
Then I started shooting G5 Strikers for several years and they were awesome till about 2 years ago. Seems the quality went to crap. I do still have older Strikers that I still use on occasion that I just resharpen and theyíre like brand new again.
Iíve been shooting the Magnus Black Hornets for a couple years now and man Iím super impressed with them.
I think theyíre the best performing heads Iíve ever shot.
Troy also sent me a few heads to try that Iím looking forward to running them through some swine as soon as I get some time away from work.



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Old 03-14-2019, 10:23 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by pigstika1978 View Post
Iíve never been a fan of mechanical heads but Iíve killed a few pigs with them.
My first go to fixed blade was the Shuttle Tís
When they were still made by Tight point.
Then I started shooting G5 Strikers for several years and they were awesome till about 2 years ago. Seems the quality went to crap. I do still have older Strikers that I still use on occasion that I just resharpen and theyíre like brand new again.
Iíve been shooting the Magnus Black Hornets for a couple years now and man Iím super impressed with them.
I think theyíre the best performing heads Iíve ever shot.
Troy also sent me a few heads to try that Iím looking forward to running them through some swine as soon as I get some time away from work.



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I almost ordered the black hornets, but I decided on the more tapered design of the stingers...with the bleeder blades. I've only heard good things about the hornets though. I'll probably order them when I decide to play around again.

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Old 03-14-2019, 10:25 PM   #27
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I almost ordered the black hornets, but I decided on the more tapered design of the stingers...with the bleeder blades. I've only heard good things about the hornets though. I'll probably order them when I decide to play around again.

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Brother theyíre awesome heads!!
Canít beat a true COC


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Old 03-14-2019, 10:29 PM   #28
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Dang bcj Jones sorry brother didnít mean to hijack your thread.
Bonus though!
Some great info in it for you


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Old 03-14-2019, 10:42 PM   #29
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when an arrow has a fixed broadhead on it there is very little impact energy because the head cuts through easily unless it hits bone,,,


keep in mind even the best heaviest and fastest arrows carry less energy than a 22lr round.....


using a mechanical head will get you more impact energy but at the cost of reduced penetration,,,,,, and the impact energy is feeble at best
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:12 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by bcj jones View Post
Still trying to find the right weight of arrow to shoot. I asked this on another thread but have had no responses. I just added some weight to my arrows because I wanted more impact and penetration. I'm shooting a Halon 6 at 27" and 70lbs. All my arrows weight 553-555 grains total with 100 grain tips cut at 28". Now that i'm reading this maybe im way too heavy but I was recommended to try and get about 8 grains per lb of draw weight. Thats about 16 GPI. Am I way off shooting them this heavy? Shooting Easton Axis 340 spine arrows

They definitely thump the bag more than the 430ish I was shooting them at before but im sure there moving pretty slow compared to before.
I have a cpl of questions, first what are you trying to penetrate? If it is a whitetail anything over about 375 grains will do that just fine with a fixed blade head.

What is the impact you mentioned wanting? Kinetic energy? An arrow kills by blood loss not kinetic energy like a bullet. You do need enough energy to get complete penetration.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:24 AM   #31
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After reading some of y'alls concerns with FOC and the fact that some of the weight was towards the rear I went to remove the wire. I guess from the impact of hitting the bag the wire shoved itself all the way at the front of the arrow. It crinkled up and is stuck at the front of the arrow and wont come out lol. That fixed my FOC problem but I was hoping this would be a temporary trial and error. I'll see if I can get it out another way. I was wondering why, despite the FOC concerns, the arrows were flying so good. I was nailing the center of the bag at 40 yards with them. I guess I know why now.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:26 AM   #32
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I have a cpl of questions, first what are you trying to penetrate? If it is a whitetail anything over about 375 grains will do that just fine with a fixed blade head.

What is the impact you mentioned wanting? Kinetic energy? An arrow kills by blood loss not kinetic energy like a bullet. You do need enough energy to get complete penetration.
Mostly whitetail deer and hogs. I tend to hug the front should pretty tight and want to be able to blow through the should if I hit it. You're right though, arrows do kill by blood loss and not kinetic energy, but I want enough to take down a large hog or blow through the shoulder of a whitetail. I hate to sacrifice too much speed though, so suggestions for a good median would be great!
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:04 AM   #33
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Penetrating a shoulder blade is tough if you center punch it, the outer edges not so much.

A big hogs shield can stop some bullets so you are best waiting for a quartering shot.


If you are shooting a 400 gr arrow( +or- 20 gr ) at a decent speed with a good fixed blade broadhead you should be fine. Broadhead design and construction is important.
I still shoot Rocky Mt Titaniums 100 gr

Find the sweet spot that your bow shoots the best at.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:24 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by bcj jones View Post
After reading some of y'alls concerns with FOC and the fact that some of the weight was towards the rear I went to remove the wire. I guess from the impact of hitting the bag the wire shoved itself all the way at the front of the arrow. It crinkled up and is stuck at the front of the arrow and wont come out lol. That fixed my FOC problem but I was hoping this would be a temporary trial and error. I'll see if I can get it out another way. I was wondering why, despite the FOC concerns, the arrows were flying so good. I was nailing the center of the bag at 40 yards with them. I guess I know why now.
I was wondering about that. I started a thread a couple months ago, when I was switching from 100 to 125 grain broadheads (that's what got me started increasing overall weight and FOC). Someone posted a YouTube link that showed a guy using nylon rope to add weight. It packed forward as well. If it's shooting good, I don't see any reason to remove it. I lost 35 fps when I went from 412 to 592 grain arrows. I shoot 62# at 27" from a Mathew's Z3.

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Old 03-15-2019, 09:14 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by bcj jones View Post
Still trying to find the right weight of arrow to shoot. I asked this on another thread but have had no responses. I just added some weight to my arrows because I wanted more impact and penetration. I'm shooting a Halon 6 at 27" and 70lbs. All my arrows weight 553-555 grains total with 100 grain tips cut at 28". Now that i'm reading this maybe im way too heavy but I was recommended to try and get about 8 grains per lb of draw weight. Thats about 16 GPI. Am I way off shooting them this heavy? Shooting Easton Axis 340 spine arrows

They definitely thump the bag more than the 430ish I was shooting them at before but im sure there moving pretty slow compared to before.
Forget impact, that's nothing in archery.

When talking about penetration there are 12 factors, read the Ashby papers if you really want to know them all, here are my main factors.

1) Mass
2) FOC
3) Broadhead Design

Broadhead design has more to do with breaking bones than any other factor.
Mass will always increase penetration.
FOC (the location of the mass) will always help penetration.

So, the idea, is to build a heavy arrow, but build the weight by adding FOC; best of both worlds. For overall penetration.

Then choose a good penetrating broadhead.

A 2 blade, single bevel, cut on contact head is best. A good 4 blade, with small, breakaway bleeders is next best. A good four blade is next and a three blade is the least effective. This is dependent on a bone hit which almost always occurs (at least a rib is hit). Big mechanicals are the least effective at penetration. Remember, penetration can only occur if the bone is broke sufficiently to allow the shaft to continue, mass and FOC doesn't matter if you can't break the bone.

However, plenty of deer are killed with three blade heads, that blow through ribs all the time. Big mechanicals kill animals all the time, and blow through ribs as well, and shoulders and have the advantage of a much wider wound channel that may, in some instances, be better than a narrower would channel.

I like two blade with small bleeders, technically a four blade, with a decent mechanical advantage; I shoot Magnus Stingers. 20% FOC and 500 gr. For me, a great all around arrow, but not very fast by today's standards @ 255 FPS.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:24 AM   #36
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bc jones
I shoot a 2015 Bowtech Prodigy at 27" draw and 60 lb draw weight
I shoot Black Eagle X Impacts cut at 26.5" long with an Ethics 180 gr outsert/insert with a 125 grain Muzzy 4 blade head, My TAW is exactly 550 grains,No problems with penetration here as long as I do my part,and my bow is very quiet..
I'm gonna give the Tooth of the Arrow 125 gr 4 blade a try, I like how its machined out of a solid piece of steel..

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Old 03-15-2019, 12:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcj jones View Post
Thank you for the replies everyone! More info certainly helps.

Muddy fuzzy obviously I know you know a little about arrows lol. Whatís wrong with adding weight with some wire? People add weight in all kinds of weird various ways

I just feel that adding weight in a more conventional manner yields more repeatable and reliable results. Honestly, mass is the easiest thing to negotiate. Pick your weight and build to it. Dropping down a spine and adding the appropriate tip weight is the way I go about it.


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Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM   #38
antiparadigm
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Personal story: I shoot the Victory VAP arrows at 445 grains (125gr head) at 292 fps. They actually increase penetration vs "similar" (broad statement) arrows due to the micro diameter of the arrow, the taper from the outsert/insert to the shaft, and the ICE ceramic coating. Sounds like a lot of marketing junk, but I have proven it works. I have tested them against arrows that weigh over 600 grains (FMJ Dangerous Game) and they go deeper - even at 60 yards. And by mental math estimate, fly about 25 fps faster.

So coat your arrows with Teflon. Ha. Jk.

Like someone said before, sounds like penetration won't be an issue for you if you're hunting in TX. Deer are pretty small compared to up north. I had a pass through at 420 grains, breaking ribs with mechanical heads on quartering away shot on a deer. You'll be fine.

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Old Yesterday, 02:25 PM   #39
enewman
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antiparadigm View Post
Personal story: I shoot the Victory VAP arrows at 445 grains (125gr head) at 292 fps. They actually increase penetration vs "similar" (broad statement) arrows due to the micro diameter of the arrow, the taper from the outsert/insert to the shaft, and the ICE ceramic coating. Sounds like a lot of marketing junk, but I have proven it works. I have tested them against arrows that weigh over 600 grains (FMJ Dangerous Game) and they go deeper - even at 60 yards. And by mental math estimate, fly about 25 fps faster.

So coat your arrows with Teflon. Ha. Jk.

Like someone said before, sounds like penetration won't be an issue for you if you're hunting in TX. Deer are pretty small compared to up north. I had a pass through at 420 grains, breaking ribs with mechanical heads on quartering away shot on a deer. You'll be fine.

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What did you shoot to see that the lighter arrow deeper then the 600 gr arrow
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