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Old 01-07-2018, 12:04 PM   #1
CrookedArrow
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Default Speed kills, or does it???

As I already do not have enough tid bit hobbies. My lease buddy has taken on the trad sport. Bill aka boh347 has killed in his first yr a hog and a DEER. He says he will no longer pick up his 1200 dollar compound bow. I am now kicking it around as to trying it out.

You Tube is my friend IF, IF, IF I do decide to give it a shot with trad I am going pretty cheap, Samick Sage. Yeah I know it isn't a Bear, BW etc. I can not justify going all out on a first trad bow and for whatever reason I may not think it was for me. Hope that makes sense.

Watching one guy shoot a Sage set at 55 lbs and shooting about 175 feet per second??? Kinetic Energy has to be a trad guys friend. So yeah I have been absorbing a bunch of stuff from YT on trad shooting and hunting.

I will let you know how I progress. More importantly I will be asking a bunch of questions for help in here as well................

Now then, get your equipment--your quiver and bow--and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me. Genesis 27:3
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:25 PM   #2
jerp
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Welcome! Yeah the speed-thing takes some getting used to - a change of mindset. I remember back in my wheel bow days I was at a friend’s annual backyard preseason shoot - about 15 guys most of whom were high tech speed freaks. Then a guy showed up with a longbow. I couldn’t believe how heavy his arrows were and how slow they flew - like he was lobbing telephone poles in comparison. I will admit it bothered me a bit when I first switched to trad because I had been conditioned to think speed was everything. It didn’t take long to be dissuaded of that notion. My fastest bow is around 180fps
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:43 PM   #3
RickBarbee
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Get your bow.
A Sage will deliver an arrow as well as many of the the top of the line customs.

Get your arrows.
Get their weight to be around 9 to 10 grains per pound of whatever draw weight you get, and make sure you get them shooting good.

Don't worry about the speed.
Just learn to shoot it. Once you do, it'll work.

Rick
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:13 PM   #4
boh347
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When you get a chance watch this film below. Very very knowledgeable film. Specially if your self taught kinda like us.
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:13 PM   #5
DRT
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I'm going say I disagree somewhat with the general attitude on speed many on here have. I want to shoot the fastest most efficient arrow I can. Not because it gets there faster. But because I want as flat a trajectory as possible.

Rick is right about the Sage. What it lacks in aesthetics and feel won't matter to the dead animal.

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Old 01-07-2018, 01:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
I'm going say I disagree somewhat with the general attitude on speed many on here have. I want to shoot the fastest most efficient arrow I can. Not because it gets there faster. But because I want as flat a trajectory as possible.

Rick is right about the Sage. What it lacks in aesthetics and feel won't matter to the dead animal.

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Very true, I was telling crookedarrow I wanted to go up on weight next season to get flatter trajectory.
That’s the biggest adjustment for me coming from a compound is lobbing those arrows. I’m mean LOBBING
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:27 PM   #7
Phillip Fields
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A fast bow is nice but it doesn't mean squat if you can't hit what you're aiming at.
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:30 PM   #8
DRT
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True but a heavy arrow doesn't mean squat if you can't hit with it either.

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Old 01-07-2018, 01:37 PM   #9
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If I was only shooting 3D I would build my arrows considerably lighter - at the minimum GPP recommended by the bowyer - and less FOC. I’m sure I would pick up quite a bit of speed and trajectory would be flatter. Since I am primarily a hunter and just shoot 3D occasionally I will continue to lob telephone poles
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:57 PM   #10
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Speed doesn't kill, technically speaking. What kills is a broadhead running far enough through the vitals of an animal. Kinetic energy has been promoted for years, but by the physics of it, momentum is what matters. How hard is it to stop the arrow? Well, more mass at lower velocity is still harder to slow to a stop than a light arrow flying a bit quicker. Since speed is always limited with a traditional bow, we are always looking for a compromise between trajectory and momentum. There's all sorts of technical discussion out on the net for you to get lost in, but the bottom line is that slow, but heavy arrows, with razor sharp broadheads, will kill. It's as simple as that!

Get the Sage! Maybe swap out the string. Definitely put some moleskin in the string grooves on the limb tips to quiet it down. Add some wool puff string silencers, and start shooting! It's one wild ride, and the rabbit hole goes DEEP!
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrookedArrow View Post
As I already do not have enough tid bit hobbies. My lease buddy has taken on the trad sport. Bill aka boh347 has killed in his first yr a hog and a DEER. He says he will no longer pick up his 1200 dollar compound bow. I am now kicking it around as to trying it out.

You Tube is my friend IF, IF, IF I do decide to give it a shot with trad I am going pretty cheap, Samick Sage. Yeah I know it isn't a Bear, BW etc. I can not justify going all out on a first trad bow and for whatever reason I may not think it was for me. Hope that makes sense.

Watching one guy shoot a Sage set at 55 lbs and shooting about 175 feet per second??? Kinetic Energy has to be a trad guys friend. So yeah I have been absorbing a bunch of stuff from YT on trad shooting and hunting.

I will let you know how I progress. More importantly I will be asking a bunch of questions for help in here as well................

Now then, get your equipment--your quiver and bow--and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me. Genesis 27:3
Not kinetic energy but momentum.
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:17 PM   #12
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I'd put dome mole skin in the limb pockets as well. It really helped quiet mine.

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Old 01-07-2018, 02:23 PM   #13
Phillip Fields
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The fastest most efficient arrow you can shoot does not always equate to the most shootable bow for you. A really fast bow is often finicky, intolerant of an improperly placed hand on the grip, or a less than perfect release or a little torque. Sure I try to minimize these problems, but in a hunting situation I may be shooting from awkward positions, my fingers may be a little stiff from the cold so I want a forgiving bow, even if the arrow speed is a little slower.

Speed is nice, but not at the expense of shootability.
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:24 PM   #14
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Going with 9 - 10 grains per pound of draw weight will keep the speed up some, but will tame the bow, thus making it more pleasurable to shoot, and shorten the learning curve.

For most (including me), that's a darn good hunting weight arrow also.

Once you get a good handle on the tuning & shooting, then you can go up/down in arrow weight to suit your preference.

It is a combination of both kinetic energy & momentum, that does the trick for penetration. You can get to heavy, and you can get to lite. I like happy mediums, and right around 9.5 gpp is where I have found that happy medium to be for me.

Rick
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:49 PM   #15
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Heavier arrows are slower. Slower is more controllable for me. Slower is also quieter. I don’t care as long as it goes where I want and has the momentum to push it through the vitals. Slower arrows are more forgiving to form and torque. Not all huntin situations are as perfect as back yard practice. You have your nerves, odd shooting positions, steep angles, and just stuff in the way. I want the most forgiving set up possible. And there’s my two cents on the speed stuff. Bare in mind though, I shoot instinctive so trajectory does not matter to me. I just need to shoot what I practice with.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWood View Post
I just need to shoot what I practice with.
AND THAT right there truly is the End All, Be All of it.

Rick
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:10 PM   #17
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I started with a 35lb Sage. **** good bow no matter what anyone thinks. I still have it for form work. Currently shooting a 45lb Griz. My shafts are right at 9g per pound and I like them that light as the fly flat for me. I've tried much more than that, much much more, with footed shafts and 100g inserts backing 150g heads and they are hard hitting but I'm not accurate with them out past about 15 yards, and not all that great closer in. My advice is buy the bow, buy some shafts and start shooting. Dial in what works for you and go with it.

God bless and happy hunting.
Richard.
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:57 PM   #18
loco cacahuate
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I like watching my arrow fly, seeing it fall into the spot I was looking at.

sharp broadheads and shot placement is the key.

the challenge, the simplicity, the fun
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:16 AM   #19
Phillip Fields
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All of my bows are tuned with 10.5 to 11.5 grain per pound. This gives me a speed somewhere in the mid to upper 170s on all my bows. After many years of shooting this is grooved into my brain. It's worked for me on critters from rabbits to bison.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:17 AM   #20
CEpperson
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I have no idea what speeds my bows put out nor do I care, dropping arrow weight will only gain you a small amount of FPS but it can cost you inches in penetration if you hit bone or shoulder. Sure on a 3D course it doesn't matter but for hunting purposes I have found that heavier is better, and thats from experience not hear say. Ultimately you will have to find what works for your setup and go with it, but like Rick said somewhere around 10gpp of draw weight is a good place to start and lots of shooting in the backyard. Good luck and God bless!

Clay
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Fields View Post
A fast bow is nice but it doesn't mean squat if you can't hit what you're aiming at.
^^^THIS^^^
A slow HIT is better than a fast MISS.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:08 AM   #22
caughtandhobble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrookedArrow View Post
As I already do not have enough tid bit hobbies. My lease buddy has taken on the trad sport. Bill aka boh347 has killed in his first yr a hog and a DEER. He says he will no longer pick up his 1200 dollar compound bow. I am now kicking it around as to trying it out.

You Tube is my friend IF, IF, IF I do decide to give it a shot with trad I am going pretty cheap, Samick Sage. Yeah I know it isn't a Bear, BW etc. I can not justify going all out on a first trad bow and for whatever reason I may not think it was for me. Hope that makes sense.

Watching one guy shoot a Sage set at 55 lbs and shooting about 175 feet per second??? Kinetic Energy has to be a trad guys friend. So yeah I have been absorbing a bunch of stuff from YT on trad shooting and hunting.

I will let you know how I progress. More importantly I will be asking a bunch of questions for help in here as well................

Now then, get your equipment--your quiver and bow--and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me. Genesis 27:3
Checkout "The Push" and "Arne Moe" videos both of these fellows have some good information.

Once you start grouping your arrows fairly well it's time to start tuning your arrows. I wouldn't worry about fine tuning until you're grouping your arrows consistently.

Checkout the "stickies" up top, there's some good information up there. If Bill lives close to you shoot with him every chance you get, he will shorten the learning curve. Good luck and have fun!!!
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:51 AM   #23
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Great info above. Guys with worldwide experience posting. Btw, Arne Moe, mentioned above, has a teaching thread on Traditional Archery Friends.
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrookedArrow View Post
As I already do not have enough tid bit hobbies. My lease buddy has taken on the trad sport. Bill aka boh347 has killed in his first yr a hog and a DEER. He says he will no longer pick up his 1200 dollar compound bow. I am now kicking it around as to trying it out.

You Tube is my friend IF, IF, IF I do decide to give it a shot with trad I am going pretty cheap, Samick Sage. Yeah I know it isn't a Bear, BW etc. I can not justify going all out on a first trad bow and for whatever reason I may not think it was for me. Hope that makes sense.

Watching one guy shoot a Sage set at 55 lbs and shooting about 175 feet per second??? Kinetic Energy has to be a trad guys friend. So yeah I have been absorbing a bunch of stuff from YT on trad shooting and hunting.

I will let you know how I progress. More importantly I will be asking a bunch of questions for help in here as well................

Now then, get your equipment--your quiver and bow--and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me. Genesis 27:3
First off, love the Bible verse. I put Genesis 27:3 as my "name" on my Black Widow...

But to answer your question... speed doesn't kill, shot placement kills. Speed just makes it easier to determine where the deer's vitals will be when your arrow gets there.

Nothing wrong with a sage. I killed my first few critters with a 50# sage. Still have it, would use it as a back up without hesitation and it currently has my bow fishing rig on it. In fact, p_dot on here just tagged out with a sage this season... He has more to show for with his $200 bow than I do with my $1200 bow and I had just as many cracks at deer that he probably did... so it is not the bow, but the guy pulling the string.

Have fun with it... it is definitely an adventure... can be frustrating at times too. Plenty of folks on here have been through just about any problem you might face along the way or question you may have.

Enjoy!
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:15 PM   #25
Bisch
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Default Speed kills, or does it???

I will add this to the mix: trad archery/hunting is not a “tid bit” hobby. It takes a lot of time and dedication to get good enough to be successful, and then a lot of time to practice and learn to stay proficient enough to be successful.

There is nothing in hunting more rewarding than walking up to a critter you just shot with a trad bow with no sights or letoff. The reason for that is because of all the time and dedication it takes to get you to that point!


Bisch


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Old 01-09-2018, 04:27 AM   #26
twillgo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisch View Post
I will add this to the mix: trad archery/hunting is not a “tid bit” hobby. It takes a lot of time and dedication to get good enough to be successful, and then a lot of time to practice and learn to stay proficient enough to be successful.

There is nothing in hunting more rewarding than walking up to a critter you just shot with a trad bow with no sights or letoff. The reason for that is because of all the time and dedication it takes to get you to that point!


Bisch


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Sage advice all! Unless you are atypical, it will take a good while to become proficient enough to hunt. Like others have said, the Sage is a great bow for the money and I still prefer shooting it over my other bows. For me, the grip is just about perfect.

Todd
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:26 AM   #27
tdwinklr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumpkin View Post
Speed doesn't kill, technically speaking. What kills is a broadhead running far enough through the vitals of an animal. Kinetic energy has been promoted for years, but by the physics of it, momentum is what matters. How hard is it to stop the arrow? Well, more mass at lower velocity is still harder to slow to a stop than a light arrow flying a bit quicker. Since speed is always limited with a traditional bow, we are always looking for a compromise between trajectory and momentum. There's all sorts of technical discussion out on the net for you to get lost in, but the bottom line is that slow, but heavy arrows, with razor sharp broadheads, will kill. It's as simple as that!

Get the Sage! Maybe swap out the string. Definitely put some moleskin in the string grooves on the limb tips to quiet it down. Add some wool puff string silencers, and start shooting! It's one wild ride, and the rabbit hole goes DEEP!
heavy arrows, razor-sharp BIG TWO-BLADED broadheads ... Fred Bear proved that a long time ago in killing anything that moved.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:01 PM   #28
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In 2000 killed a doe in PA shooting a 52# hickory selfbow that shot 137 fps. It was the first bow I ever built and has some decent string follow on the top limb. I didn't get a pass through but it was a dead deer. I was shooting laminated birch shafts with 3 blade Wensel Woodsman broadheads. That was the only time I used those heads, I switched to two blade after that. I also killed a doe in PA with a 43# hybrid longbow after my first back surgery in 2005. I was shooting Gold Tip Traditional carbons with 100grn brass inserts and Magnus Stingers. I never shot that bow through a chrono but it was no speed demon and it was still a dead deer .

I believe sharp broadheads, a heavy arrow, and lots of practice with what you hunt with equal tagged animals when hunting with trad gear.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:54 PM   #29
RJH1
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I will be the one who goes against the grain here and say, skip the sage. With a little looking you can find a real nice used bow that only cost a little more. And you wont be dissatisfied with it in a few months. Good luck and have fun
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:41 AM   #30
CrookedArrow
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Well, waiting on "what can brown do for you?" Ordered the Sage
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:52 AM   #31
Bisch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrookedArrow View Post
Well, waiting on "what can brown do for you?" Ordered the Sage


The fun is just beginning now!!!!!

Good luck, and welcome to the fun side!

Bisch


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Old 01-11-2018, 10:26 AM   #32
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It's definitely a challenging yet satisfying pursuit. Lots of good folks here to visit with and learn from. Good shooting to you.

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Old 01-14-2018, 03:54 AM   #33
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If the bow is quiet speed is not that important. At 15 yds and under if the bow is worth it's salt your arrow won't drop that much. 567 gr. arrow at about 155-160 . 47@26
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Old 01-14-2018, 04:25 AM   #34
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I'm running 430 out of my 55lbs Satori, I built several sets of arrows and tested them on the 3d course. The lighter arrows upped my scores by 30%, every animal I've shot with them has passed threw completely or the fletching hung up on the exit. They are tuned to perfection, with a 125 grain helix broadhead up front.

This guy was the worst penetration I had this year. (thats the exit)
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Old 01-14-2018, 07:39 AM   #35
4dog
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Nice!!^^^^^&&
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:39 AM   #36
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I guess I'm lucky. For the brief few years I shot a compound they only shot 190fps so I don't miss anything.
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