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Old 01-19-2018, 09:55 AM   #1
HighwayHunter
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Fairly new to archery, so without sparking a heated debate I'd like to know something.

My bow is no top of the line bow. It's a diamond infinite edge. However I am accurate with it and it shoots pretty fast at a 70# draw 31". Should I worry about shooting heavier arrows for better penetration and losing some speed? Or keep my lighter arrows and keep the speed in hopes to beat a deer who might jump the string?


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Old 01-19-2018, 09:59 AM   #2
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You don't need to worry about penetration...at all.
Speed is overrated so don't worry about that either. Just hunt and keep your shots on whitetail under 40 yds, 30 or less would be ideal
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:01 AM   #3
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I've got no scientific answers other than "KE is where it's at." I went from a fast XLR8, shooting lasers, to my Halon 32-6. Same dw/dl and same arrow setup. I immediately noticed a significant lob in the trajectory of my arrow out of the Halon. I didn't like it. After I got it dialed in, I started shooting one arrow per spot on the target to avoid the unlikely chance that I "Robinhood" some arrows. FMJs are expensive! Anyways, I shot a spot on the target near the edge and the whole target spun 45 degrees. I immediately lost any worry of lack of velocity because "the energy is there." My assumption was proved correct on the first animal I shot. Clean pass through the ribs with enough energy to stick the shaft 6" into the sand behind my target. (Shooting from 15' ladder).

Again, I'm no pro and would consider myself a bowhunting novice as well. Just my personal experience.

Just for reference/context: I'm shooting 320 spine FMJ with 100gr heads. 470gr total.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:04 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by HighwayHunter View Post
Fairly new to archery, so without sparking a heated debate I'd like to know something.

My bow is no top of the line bow. It's a diamond infinite edge. However I am accurate with it and it shoots pretty fast at a 70# draw 31". Should I worry about shooting heavier arrows for better penetration and losing some speed? Or keep my lighter arrows and keep the speed in hopes to beat a deer who might jump the string?


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Your arrow will never beat the sound there. Period. Focus on getting it quiet which means......efficient.

Energy in a bow is lost to vibration which is transmitted into sound.

A bow is more efficient with heavier (not heaviest) arrows. Think about throwing a whiffle ball vs a baseball.

A bow is more efficient when perfectly tuned.

A bow is more efficient when %FOC is right.

Now that we have transmitted the maximum amount of stored energy into the arrow we need to dissipate the rest of the energy and vibrations so they do not end up as sound.

Limbsaver started this and I still believe in their products. On the limbs, strings and accessories.

Make sure everything is tight so it also does not vibrate.

My hoyt Havoc with heavy carbons shoots quieter than most traditional gear and almost all compounds. And was still pushing the 280 fps mark.

That is my take from experience and Physics.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:10 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BlackHogDown View Post
I've got no scientific answers other than "KE is where it's at." I went from a fast XLR8, shooting lasers, to my Halon 32-6. Same dw/dl and same arrow setup. I immediately noticed a significant lob in the trajectory of my arrow out of the Halon. I didn't like it. After I got it dialed in, I started shooting one arrow per spot on the target to avoid the unlikely chance that I "Robinhood" some arrows. FMJs are expensive! Anyways, I shot a spot on the target near the edge and the whole target spun 45 degrees. I immediately lost any worry of lack of velocity because "the energy is there." My assumption was proved correct on the first animal I shot. Clean pass through the ribs with enough energy to stick the shaft 6" into the sand behind my target. (Shooting from 15' ladder).

Again, I'm no pro and would consider myself a bowhunting novice as well. Just my personal experience.

Just for reference/context: I'm shooting 320 spine FMJ with 100gr heads. 470gr total.
Sorry, but KE is not where it is at with bowhunting set ups. MOMENTUM is where it is at and the more momentum you have the better the penetration should be.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:12 AM   #6
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Short answer is you will never beat a deer's ability to duck an arrow. Speed is the least of my concern. With that being said, I like speed with a heavy arrow to increase KE.

Personally, I would focus more on the heavy arrow/stiffer spine than speed.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:15 AM   #7
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Sorry, but KE is not where it is at with bowhunting set ups. MOMENTUM is where it is at and the more momentum you have the better the penetration should be.
You sound like a physicist. Please enlighten us. If memory serves correctly, KE and Momentum are'NT (edit) related. Difference being that momentum is a vector... quantity AND direction. NOT being a smart A, genuinely curious from a physics standpoint... bowhunting aside.

From a shooting standpoint, KE does sound like what we're after. "The amount of energy due to motion." Again, someone correct me if i'm wrong, isn't the "moment" changing every millisecond the arrow is in flight? Why do I care about the "moment" as long as my arrow is hitting where I'm aiming? Serious Q...

Last edited by BlackHogDown; 01-19-2018 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:27 AM   #8
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Sorry, but KE is not where it is at with bowhunting set ups. MOMENTUM is where it is at and the more momentum you have the better the penetration should be.
The 2 have very little to do with each other.

KE is the energy state of an object in motion and gives an indication of the ability to do work. This is because work is the change in energy.

Momentum is the ability of an object to resist a change in its current inertia state (direction and speed of movement).

While for non physics people this may not seem like a big deal it is a huge difference.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:29 AM   #9
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[QUOTE=HighwayHunter;13114590]Fairly new to archery, so without sparking a heated debate I'd like to know something.

Well so much for that!
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:33 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mudslinger View Post
Sorry, but KE is not where it is at with bowhunting set ups. MOMENTUM is where it is at and the more momentum you have the better the penetration should be.
Ding, ding, ding!!! Winner. And as outbreaker posted, your arrow will never be as fast as the speed of sound, which is about 1100 fps at sea level.

The three most important things to a bowhunter IMO are 1. Hunt the wind, 2. Tune your bow 3. Perfect practice (not just slinging arrows).
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:33 AM   #11
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[quote=ACCURACYINC;13114690]
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighwayHunter View Post
Fairly new to archery, so without sparking a heated debate I'd like to know something.



Well so much for that!


Yeah that didn't work out I do enjoy reading this though. For a guy like me I'm having to look stuff up to just keep up with these convos lol


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Old 01-19-2018, 10:37 AM   #12
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A bow and arrow will never match the KE of a 22. Momentum is a better measurement for bow hunting. Heavy arrow will equal better penetration and a more efficient , quieter bow. Not saying you have to go crazy with the weight.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:38 AM   #13
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Well I'm not the brightest when it comes to KE, speed, etc. I am definitely on board with keeping your shot distance to a minimum regardless of the bow you shoot. I practice out to 50 yards, but rarely make a shot over 25. Deer are very keen animals, and in the interest of making the most ethical shot possible, I choose to take the shortest shot I can every time I can.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:39 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by ACCURACYINC View Post
Well I'm not the brightest when it comes to KE, speed, etc. I am definitely on board with keeping your shot distance to a minimum regardless of the bow you shoot. I practice out to 50 yards, but rarely make a shot over 25. Deer are very keen animals, and in the interest of making the most ethical shot possible, I choose to take the shortest shot I can every time I can.
I wish some of my buddies had the same mindset when I invite them out!
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by ACCURACYINC View Post
Well I'm not the brightest when it comes to KE, speed, etc. I am definitely on board with keeping your shot distance to a minimum regardless of the bow you shoot. I practice out to 50 yards, but rarely make a shot over 25. Deer are very keen animals, and in the interest of making the most ethical shot possible, I choose to take the shortest shot I can every time I can.
This is important. I have never shot at a deer or pig over 18yds.

I have shot many rabbits, jackrabbits, pack rats, and armadillos out to 60yds.

Before my elbow injury I would practice until I could place 10/10 inside a pie plate at 80yds in the open air.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:03 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BlackHogDown View Post
You sound like a physicist. Please enlighten us. If memory serves correctly, KE and Momentum are'NT (edit) related. Difference being that momentum is a vector... quantity AND direction. NOT being a smart A, genuinely curious from a physics standpoint... bowhunting aside.

From a shooting standpoint, KE does sound like what we're after. "The amount of energy due to motion." Again, someone correct me if i'm wrong, isn't the "moment" changing every millisecond the arrow is in flight? Why do I care about the "moment" as long as my arrow is hitting where I'm aiming? Serious Q...
KE was a term we used 20 years ago. Then some smart arse started using Momentum. Now if you use KE, someone will correct your stupid arse!
Kinda like saying clips instead of magazines.

Still the same philosophy.....What's gonna do more damage.....a 100mph baseball or a 55mph bowling ball?

Hail, even some of the arrows sold today are called Kenetic.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:07 AM   #17
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KE was a term we used 20 years ago. Then some smart arse started using Momentum. Now if you use KE, someone will correct your stupid arse!
Kinda like saying clips instead of magazines.

Still the same philosophy.....What's gonna do more damage.....a 100mph baseball or a 55mph bowling ball?

Hail, even some of the arrows sold today are called Kenetic.
Lol Amen! Somebody with an actual physics background chimed in to remove "momentum" from the conversation because it does not apply. Lol Obviously people didn't read his response... or it went over their head. "Ding, Ding. winner"
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:07 AM   #18
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The larger the cutting area the heavier total arrow weight should be for best penetration. I shoot a heavy arrow compared to most here for whitetail with total arrow weight of 565 grain (265fps) and haven't had any issues with string jump. I limited my shot distance on whitetail to no more than 25 yards. My bow is very quiet shooting this arrow weight compared to someone shooting a arrow at the minimum weight allowed to get more speed.

Heres a good read on KE vs Momentum
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/blog...inetic-energy/


Momentum is the key!!!
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:15 AM   #19
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i hear alot of blab about speed ke bla bla
i threw a heavy 10.8 gpi arrow on my mathews and it shoots slow but blows thru anything- it is very accurate so my vote is go heavy
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by flywise View Post
You don't need to worry about penetration...at all.
Speed is overrated so don't worry about that either. Just hunt and keep your shots on whitetail under 40 yds, 30 or less would be ideal
^^^^ this!!!!
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Traildust View Post
KE was a term we used 20 years ago. Then some smart arse started using Momentum. Now if you use KE, someone will correct your stupid arse!
Kinda like saying clips instead of magazines.

Still the same philosophy.....What's gonna do more damage.....a 100mph baseball or a 55mph bowling ball?

Hail, even some of the arrows sold today are called Kenetic.
A 55mph bowling ball would have more initial energy imput into the system compared to a 100mph baseball. You are not measuring the actual energy difference.

A 100mph baseball would be compared to a 16mph bowling ball.

I would not want to get hit by either one and each will do the same amount of work as they both have a similar KE. Even though the momentums are massively different.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:21 AM   #22
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Lol Amen! Somebody with an actual physics background chimed in to remove "momentum" from the conversation because it does not apply. Lol Obviously people didn't read his response... or it went over their head. "Ding, Ding. winner"
His physics is wrong though.......I teach physics.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:22 AM   #23
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His physics is wrong though.......I teach physics.
I was referring to you as the physicist and agreeing with you, sir. Saying that people didn't read your initial response.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:22 AM   #24
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His physics is wrong though.......I teach physics.
Somebody is about to get schooled! Where's my popcorn?
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by BlackHogDown View Post
You sound like a physicist. Please enlighten us. If memory serves correctly, KE and Momentum are'NT (edit) related. Difference being that momentum is a vector... quantity AND direction. NOT being a smart A, genuinely curious from a physics standpoint... bowhunting aside.

From a shooting standpoint, KE does sound like what we're after. "The amount of energy due to motion." Again, someone correct me if i'm wrong, isn't the "moment" changing every millisecond the arrow is in flight? Why do I care about the "moment" as long as my arrow is hitting where I'm aiming? Serious Q...
KE is also a vector quantity. Momentum is as well. They measure 2 totally different things though.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:24 AM   #26
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KE is also a vector quantity. Momentum is as well. They measure 2 totally different things though.
Ahh I see the confusion. "You sound like a physicist" = Sarcasm.

Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:33 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Outbreaker View Post
A 55mph bowling ball would have more initial energy imput into the system compared to a 100mph baseball. You are not measuring the actual energy difference.

A 100mph baseball would be compared to a 16mph bowling ball.

I would not want to get hit by either one and each will do the same amount of work as they both have a similar KE. Even though the momentums are massively different.
Not really sure what you said, but I just use inertia when I'm talking to my DA friends....they don't know the difference
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:35 AM   #28
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I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Especially since your at 70# 31” draw, I know for the deer I hunt there’s no need to go heavy. I’ve never shot a deer and not had a pass through, with a light or heavy setup.

Just shoot whatever you are confident in, make a good shot with a sharp head and everything will work out.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:38 AM   #29
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I did a little testing going from light to heavy arrows. You will reach a point with a still viable arrow where KE will barely increase, but momentum will still rise. Several positives are there when looking at momentum and not KE. Increasing momentum will give you a heavier arrow, quieter bow, but slower speeds. My heavier arrows also gave ME more forgiveness and more accuracy at longer shot distances. Biggest problems you will run into is when you start going to heavier arrow and trying to increase the FOC, your arrow spine is going to come into question and could very well make the arrow almost impossible to tune. Heavier arrows have a lot of positives, but also some negatives. When I went to 150 grains heavier with a drastic increase in FOC I had to go from a 350 spine to a 250 spine.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:39 AM   #30
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Long read but gives good logic behind momentum and KE.

http://www.grizzlystik.com/Ashby-On-...ation-W19.aspx
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:40 AM   #31
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Not really sure what you said, but I just use inertia when I'm talking to my DA friends....they don't know the difference
Non technical version.

You can't compare a 40lb bow to a 100lb bow because they put different amounts of energy into the arrow. If we standardize (make the same) the energy going into the arrow the kinetic energy coming out will be the same. This is because the same work was being done.

This way we are comparing the pure difference in momentum........not the difference between a 40lb bow and a 100lb bow.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:56 PM   #32
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My bows @ 63# with a 31.5" draw length.
I used to keep my arrows at 420 grian max, 6 grains per pound draw weight. When I built them I was shooting daily so I was comfortable with 70# draw weight. I rarely shoot now so it's backed down to 63#.

I made some shots that should have ended better than they did. It left me unhappy with MY CHOICE of arrow build. I researched and texted a few things. I changed my build specs from.420 grain max.
To.
20% FOC.
Fixed blade COC Broadhead.

Now they weigh in at 628 grains, if memory serves me.
That could change cause I'm considering a micro diameter shaft.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:58 PM   #33
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I blew through many a deer with an old round wheeler shooting 30" XX75 2317's going 204fps.
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Old 01-19-2018, 01:01 PM   #34
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I blew through many a deer with an old round wheeler shooting 30" XX75 2317's going 204fps.
Been there, I have no idea how slow they were going but I will tell you a squirrel can get out of the way in the time it took it to go 10yds. Had to wait for them to hide their heads.
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:26 PM   #35
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Outbreaker and Blackhogdown, I would love to share a campfire with you sometime! We could have some great conversations over a lot of different subjects on archery, bowhunting and what works best. Serious on this as I think we all think alike, but maybe coming in from different angles!
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:34 PM   #36
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Outbreaker and Blackhogdown, I would love to share a campfire with you sometime! We could have some great conversations over a lot of different subjects on archery, bowhunting and what works best. Serious on this as I think we all think alike, but maybe coming in from different angles!
I hear ya. We are all saying go heavy.....but not too heavy. It is really about getting the system you are shooting to be the most efficient possible.

Then blow the energy how you want. I was pushing 1.75" mechanicals and would still find them 30 yards the other side of a deer when shooting from the ground.
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:44 PM   #37
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Momentum equals the mass (weight) times velocity
Kinetic energy equals the mass times velocity times velocity (squared)

KE is used for the killing potential of firearms, since the transfer of energy from the bullet to the destruction of bone/ tissue/ organs is the primary way a bullet kills.

An arrow kills by exsanguination (blood loss) so tissue damage is of a lesser concern.

BUT, I'VE SEEN THIS DEBATED ON BOWHUNTING WEB SITES FOR OVER 20 YEARS.

Quiet is good. Quieter is better.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:40 PM   #38
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I'll play... When this debate is brought up, it is usually deer and hog hunters going back and forth between kinetic vs. momentum. With deer size game it's really not very crucial and the very most average set up is more than lethal. Matter of fact, a sharp broad head and perfect arrow flight will work even out of some of the lightest set ups on deer sized game. Now, move to large game such as bison, muskox, etc and you will immediately realize the importance of momentum. Kinetic energy is a marketing tool.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:45 PM   #39
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Pretty sure the Infinite Edge only goes to 30 inch DL, but aside from that, just shoot a ballpark 400 grain arrow and you will be quiet enough and fast enough to kill deer.
At some point, you might see that the riser will be compromised by the highest poundage and longest draw length for that bow.
The Infinite Edge was not specifically designed to be shot at it's extreme capability.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:03 PM   #40
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Pretty sure the Infinite Edge only goes to 30 inch DL, but aside from that, just shoot a ballpark 400 grain arrow and you will be quiet enough and fast enough to kill deer.

At some point, you might see that the riser will be compromised by the highest poundage and longest draw length for that bow.

The Infinite Edge was not specifically designed to be shot at it's extreme capability.


Mines the infinite edge pro if that makes a difference. I know it draws at max of 31" and pulls a hair shy of 70#. It's my first bow, but I plan to do some deer/hog hunting with it this year before buying a high dollar bow.


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Old 01-19-2018, 08:08 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Bill in San Jose View Post
Momentum equals the mass (weight) times velocity
Kinetic energy equals the mass times velocity times velocity (squared)

KE is used for the killing potential of firearms, since the transfer of energy from the bullet to the destruction of bone/ tissue/ organs is the primary way a bullet kills.

An arrow kills by exsanguination (blood loss) so tissue damage is of a lesser concern.

BUT, I'VE SEEN THIS DEBATED ON BOWHUNTING WEB SITES FOR OVER 20 YEARS.

Quiet is good. Quieter is better.
So no tissues are damaged to cause the bleeding? This is interesting.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:13 PM   #42
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Mines the infinite edge pro if that makes a difference. I know it draws at max of 31" and pulls a hair shy of 70#. It's my first bow, but I plan to do some deer/hog hunting with it this year before buying a high dollar bow.


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You are right, it does go to 31 inch DL.
Bow is really maxed.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:14 PM   #43
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I'll play... When this debate is brought up, it is usually deer and hog hunters going back and forth between kinetic vs. momentum. With deer size game it's really not very crucial and the very most average set up is more than lethal. Matter of fact, a sharp broad head and perfect arrow flight will work even out of some of the lightest set ups on deer sized game. Now, move to large game such as bison, muskox, etc and you will immediately realize the importance of momentum. Kinetic energy is a marketing tool.
So you are saying a 750gr arrow traveling at 100fps do better than a 250 gr arrow going 300fps?
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:16 PM   #44
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You are right, it does go to 31 inch DL.

Bow is really maxed.


Yes it is. I'm thinking of trying out the Hoyt XXL


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Old 01-19-2018, 08:20 PM   #45
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What’s the vector Victor? I can’t add anything to what’s been said but don’t over think it. With your setup a deer will die at the end of a well shot sharp broadhead of your choosing.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:31 PM   #46
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So you are saying a 750gr arrow traveling at 100fps do better than a 250 gr arrow going 300fps?


Depending on what you are after it totally can be. 750 at 100 FPS is like a locomotive man, tipped with the right broadhead it can be pretty unstoppable. Itís a bit extreme though a better, more reasonable analogy would be 550 grains at about 250.


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Old 01-19-2018, 08:47 PM   #47
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Depending on what you are after it totally can be. 750 at 100 FPS is like a locomotive man, tipped with the right broadhead it can be pretty unstoppable. Itís a bit extreme though a better, more reasonable analogy would be 550 grains at about 250.


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Both the 250gr arrow at 300 and the 750gr arrow have the EXACT SAME momentum!

If the science holds it works at extremes. It is not all about momentum.

Infact if both of these arrows have the exact same cut to point broadhead the 250gr will penetrate further since it has 3 times the KE.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:49 PM   #48
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Both the 250gr arrow at 300 and the 750gr arrow have the EXACT SAME momentum!



If the science holds it works at extremes. It is not all about momentum.



Infact if both of these arrows have the exact same cut to point broadhead the 250gr will penetrate further since it has 3 times the KE.


Negatory


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Old 01-19-2018, 08:53 PM   #49
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You see thatís the problem, guys get all wrapped up in numbers and online calculators. If that logic held true guys would be shooting Cape with the 250 grain set up but itís simply not done, ever..... and there is good reason for it, it doesnít translate into lethality. Play with it all you want but itís just not the same.


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Old 01-19-2018, 09:11 PM   #50
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You see thatís the problem, guys get all wrapped up in numbers and online calculators. If that logic held true guys would be shooting Cape with the 250 grain set up but itís simply not done, ever..... and there is good reason for it, it doesnít translate into lethality. Play with it all you want but itís just not the same.


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So the laws of Physics fail to apply when you put fletching on an arrow....Nice to know. I will let the world know that Newton, Einstein and many other have been wrong all along.

They also do not shoot Cape with an arrow traveling 100fps. It would fail dismally even with 750gr. Realize this is slower than a short stop throws to first base.

This is why for archery on dangerous game there is a minimum arrow weight requirement AND a minimum poundage requirement with many differentiating for Compound vs Trad.

KE and Momentum travel together. When you increase one you almost always increase the other.

If you are shooting the same bow (no change in the input to the system) the heavier arrow wins not by increasing the momentum (which it does) but increasing the efficiency to which the bow transfers the KE to the arrow.

KE does work (cutting blood vessels, cutting skin and breaking bone). Momentum just resists a change to its inertial state. While they are similar and travel in the same pack, they are not the same.

The examples you use are like saying. The .458 Lott is better than the .45 ACP because it is a heavier bullet and has more momentum.

No.......it is better because the 2 have nowhere near the same KE or Gunpowder......like shown above when I fixed the baseball/bowling ball analogy.
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