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Old 03-18-2018, 09:11 PM   #1
Hooverfb
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Default Confiscation starts..

Gotta watch out for them 56year olds with small 5-6 shot arms.
Florida confiscated them under the rule in which a family member or law enforcement may petition a judge if they "think" they're a danger but haven't been committed.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.breit...ntrol-law/amp/
Interesting that they dont state who made the petition, and on what grounds.

Let's continue to ignore the sweeping under the rug of a kid who had been in trouble multiple times and actually ended up killing people as a result of bad policy and horrible law enforcement ....
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Old 03-18-2018, 09:32 PM   #2
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Read this the other day. Pathetic. People will be along shortly to say they support this because the guy was a bit cookoo.


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Old 03-18-2018, 10:32 PM   #3
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Read this the other day. Pathetic. People will be along shortly to say they support this because the guy was a bit cookoo.


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You had no problem with a crazy kid being allowed to buy Guns?
The article probanly said all it could say about his involuntary psych treatment because there are HIPA laws.
Believe it or not, some of us deal with real psychotic people on nearly a daily basis. And there is currently nothing to prevent most of them from buying weapons and going on a killing spree
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Old 03-18-2018, 10:48 PM   #4
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http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...316-story.html

This is a better article of the same event. Yeah, he needs those guns taken away
" temporarily "
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:16 AM   #5
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See those are the details that matter. Sounds like he probably did need his guns taken away if he's got a screw loose. First article didn't say anything about that really and I couldn't find much else. Thanks for sharing that article.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:05 AM   #6
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Infringement of second amendment rights. If the guy is mentally unstable and is believed to be a threat you don't take his guns away, you follow due process and have him admitted to a psych ward until he is under control and wont harm anyone. What's the thought process here? He gets out and goes home and now there aren't any guns to use on a shooting spree? No problem, did we take his butcher block full of knives away? What about his vehicle, did we take that too? Baseball bat in the closet?

Worse part about this is a liberal city government (I know right, never in America) via a police force gets to make a determination of mental health status with no degree or certification in mental health disciplines?


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Old 03-19-2018, 07:11 AM   #7
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How long before a liberal Sheriff or Mayor in FL decides to confiscate the guns from a political opponent and then uses the innuendo of mental instability to discredit them? Or just for general revenge.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:20 AM   #8
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How long before a liberal Sheriff or Mayor in FL decides to confiscate the guns from a political opponent and then uses the innuendo of mental instability to discredit them? Or just for general revenge.
The law states the confiscation is temporary, not permanent.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:23 AM   #9
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The law states the confiscation is temporary, not permanent.
90 years is temporary, just saying.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:28 AM   #10
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Or wives, ex wives, or wives wanting a divorce say you are crazy? Just tape you drinking and joking with your buddies and Bam all your guns are gone. At that point she gets everything...Good luck proving you are not crazy and getting everything back.

Bottom line is IF someone is crazy and a threat they should be off the streets period. If allowed on the streets they hold the 2nd amendment rights.
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:34 AM   #11
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Or wives, ex wives, or wives wanting a divorce say you are crazy? Just tape you drinking and joking with your buddies and Bam all your guns are gone. At that point she gets everything...Good luck proving you are not crazy and getting everything back.

Bottom line is IF someone is crazy and a threat they should be off the streets period. If allowed on the streets they hold the 2nd amendment rights.
This is what I was expecting the story to end up being. I'd be interested to know what the current laws for this type of situation are. I'd honestly be a little surprised if there wasn't something in place already to handle this besides just taking hia guns away and involuntary commitment.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:09 AM   #12
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I did not read both of the articles but apparently there are differences between the two. Maybe the government should get involved in any news outlet or source that prints or reports a false or misleading story. Might be a good idea for the government to start an agency that vets all news stories before they are printed or aired to verify the story is correct.









For those without a meter, yes I know what I just posted.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:28 AM   #13
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This is what I was expecting the story to end up being. I'd be interested to know what the current laws for this type of situation are. I'd honestly be a little surprised if there wasn't something in place already to handle this besides just taking hia guns away and involuntary commitment.
In Florida they have had the Baker act for several years. They have already been able to take guns from crazy people but ( as with the new law) required to give the guns back once the person is released from the hospital,mental facility etc.
I do not trust gov. at any level not to try and expand their authority but i also know that people are taken to the hospital against their will for psych. evals all the time. Typically because they are acting like the man in the article or threatening to kill themselves or others.
There is a NEED for laws like this one regardless what some think
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:11 AM   #14
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Or wives, ex wives, or wives wanting a divorce say you are crazy? Just tape you drinking and joking with your buddies and Bam all your guns are gone. At that point she gets everything...Good luck proving you are not crazy and getting everything back.

Bottom line is IF someone is crazy and a threat they should be off the streets period. If allowed on the streets they hold the 2nd amendment rights.
I hear what you're saying, but it brings up questions in my mind.... So, do we want to increase the government's ability to commit people to mental hospitals for life rather than simply take guns away from people with a history of mental illness? Can we not think of the same kinds of hypothetical scenarios about liberal judges, sheriffs, etc. abusing that power too? What if someone that hates you files a report about how you're mentally instable and all the liberals in control of the situation decide that your affection for guns means that you are mentally instable and potentially dangerous, and since they can't take your guns away they'll just send you away to a mental institution for the rest of your life instead? If you were the victim of such abuse, would you rather live out your remaining days in a medicated fog inside a mental institution or live in your home without guns? If we're going to discuss worst case scenario what-ifs and use those as our justifications about where we come down on these issues, shouldn't we look at all of them, rather than just one?

It sounds to me like this case in Florida is using due process. It sounds to me like the end result was very positive as well. I'm as pro-2nd Amendment as you can imagine. I have zero issue with insane people like this guy in Florida not being allowed to own, purchase, or possess firearms. We've been arguing all along that it isn't a gun control issue, it's a mental health issue. That's true. Mentally ill people should be in treatment and under supervision, especially when they are potentially violent. They shouldn't be allowed to have guns either. Ever - regardless of where they live. At the same time, there should be lots of checks and balances in the system to ensure that anyone who ends up on the mental illness "list" gets a fair opportunity to dispute it. And if anyone is later found to not be mentally ill, then their name should be cleared. And, yes, I can think of ways that system could still fail in isolated cases here and there. We can't come up with anything that won't have potential holes in it. I think we need to be looking for a system that has the least amount of holes in it, not the non-existent "perfect" one.
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:32 AM   #15
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The problem that no one in this thread has mentioned is that our mental health care system is broken. Legitimately crazy people get sent to Rusk or any state facility and unless they lose their **** while there, they are released with more medication ( which may or may not affect them positively) in sometimes as short as a few days. What good does it do to take someone’s guns, send them to the looney bin, then give them back soon as they get out? Are they really better or just medicated?

There are a lot of people casting stones here about things they know little to nothing about, hence the reason I won’t provide an opinion on the OP.


Sierracharlie out…
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:00 PM   #16
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I hear what you're saying, but it brings up questions in my mind.... So, do we want to increase the government's ability to commit people to mental hospitals for life rather than simply take guns away from people with a history of mental illness? Can we not think of the same kinds of hypothetical scenarios about liberal judges, sheriffs, etc. abusing that power too? What if someone that hates you files a report about how you're mentally instable and all the liberals in control of the situation decide that your affection for guns means that you are mentally instable and potentially dangerous, and since they can't take your guns away they'll just send you away to a mental institution for the rest of your life instead? If you were the victim of such abuse, would you rather live out your remaining days in a medicated fog inside a mental institution or live in your home without guns? If we're going to discuss worst case scenario what-ifs and use those as our justifications about where we come down on these issues, shouldn't we look at all of them, rather than just one?

It sounds to me like this case in Florida is using due process. It sounds to me like the end result was very positive as well. I'm as pro-2nd Amendment as you can imagine. I have zero issue with insane people like this guy in Florida not being allowed to own, purchase, or possess firearms. We've been arguing all along that it isn't a gun control issue, it's a mental health issue. That's true. Mentally ill people should be in treatment and under supervision, especially when they are potentially violent. They shouldn't be allowed to have guns either. Ever - regardless of where they live. At the same time, there should be lots of checks and balances in the system to ensure that anyone who ends up on the mental illness "list" gets a fair opportunity to dispute it. And if anyone is later found to not be mentally ill, then their name should be cleared. And, yes, I can think of ways that system could still fail in isolated cases here and there. We can't come up with anything that won't have potential holes in it. I think we need to be looking for a system that has the least amount of holes in it, not the non-existent "perfect" one.
2 points.

First, it should never be the determination of a govt entity to diagnose mental illness. No judge, no jury, no LE no one except a qualified Mental Health Practitioner and in the case of the govt it should be a third party Practitioner with no ties to the situation since the govt is the last entity we want making these decisions.

Next, lets define "mentally ill". PTSD? Depression? Anxiety? That list will include me and god knows how many other veterans as well as millions of other good people that would never hurt a fly except in the defense of self and others. Good luck disarming the veterans. That will go splendidly for you let me tell ya!
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:08 PM   #17
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2 points.

First, it should never be the determination of a govt entity to diagnose mental illness. No judge, no jury, no LE no one except a qualified Mental Health Practitioner and in the case of the govt it should be a third party Practitioner with no ties to the situation since the govt is the last entity we want making these decisions.

Next, lets define "mentally ill". PTSD? Depression? Anxiety? That list will include me and god knows how many other veterans as well as millions of other good people that would never hurt a fly except in the defense of self and others. Good luck disarming the veterans. That will go splendidly for you let me tell ya!
Obesity is defined as a mental illness...Just to help prove your point.

What I find more disturbing is our law makers are rushing to pass a bill in an attempt to keep egg off their face. None of them are really looking at the root cause of why the FBI, Boward county Sheriff and now school counselors failed to take action with this kid when they had multiple opportunities to do so.
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Old 03-19-2018, 01:18 PM   #18
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He is a good idea
Everyone, including felons and mentally disturbed who are legal American citizens should be allowed to constitution carry at all times and places.
No gun restrictions on anyone for Any reason
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Old 03-19-2018, 01:18 PM   #19
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2 points.

First, it should never be the determination of a govt entity to diagnose mental illness. No judge, no jury, no LE no one except a qualified Mental Health Practitioner and in the case of the govt it should be a third party Practitioner with no ties to the situation since the govt is the last entity we want making these decisions.

Next, lets define "mentally ill". PTSD? Depression? Anxiety? That list will include me and god knows how many other veterans as well as millions of other good people that would never hurt a fly except in the defense of self and others. Good luck disarming the veterans. That will go splendidly for you let me tell ya!
I agree^
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Old 03-19-2018, 01:21 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by sierracharlie338 View Post
The problem that no one in this thread has mentioned is that our mental health care system is broken. Legitimately crazy people get sent to Rusk or any state facility and unless they lose their **** while there, they are released with more medication ( which may or may not affect them positively) in sometimes as short as a few days. What good does it do to take someone’s guns, send them to the looney bin, then give them back soon as they get out? Are they really better or just medicated?

There are a lot of people casting stones here about things they know little to nothing about, hence the reason I won’t provide an opinion on the OP.


Sierracharlie out…
Yep. We need to get mental hospitals going the way they used to run again for sure. A month in and then release with drugs is not working for a lot of seriously mentally ill people.

The way I understand the new Florida law is that it would prevent the person in your scenario from owning firearms again, even after release from the mental hospital or treatment facility.
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Old 03-19-2018, 02:00 PM   #21
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2 points.

First, it should never be the determination of a govt entity to diagnose mental illness. No judge, no jury, no LE no one except a qualified Mental Health Practitioner and in the case of the govt it should be a third party Practitioner with no ties to the situation since the govt is the last entity we want making these decisions.

That^^^^ does not exist now. The person in question will be taken to the relevant professionals for this determination.

Next, lets define "mentally ill". PTSD? Depression? Anxiety? That list will include me and god knows how many other veterans as well as millions of other good people that would never hurt a fly except in the defense of self and others. Good luck disarming the veterans. That will go splendidly for you let me tell ya!
Are they not mental illnesses? There are varying degrees of each on your list.
The worst cases are quite evident when you go to their house at 2 am and they are wanting to kill you and those around you who are trying to help. Again, a professional will make the determination
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Old 03-19-2018, 02:39 PM   #22
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Are they not mental illnesses? There are varying degrees of each on your list.
The worst cases are quite evident when you go to their house at 2 am and they are wanting to kill you and those around you who are trying to help. Again, a professional will make the determination
In your example they are committing a crime. Im talking about someone who has not commited a single crime. In the statute FL placed there is no differentiation between a criminal and a law abiding citizen. The police are already allowed to seize firearms if they are used in a crime.
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Old 03-19-2018, 02:48 PM   #23
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In your example they are committing a crime. Im talking about someone who has not commited a single crime. In the statute FL placed there is no differentiation between a criminal and a law abiding citizen. The police are already allowed to seize firearms if they are used in a crime.
No, I am not describing a crime. Im talking about people who are in the midst of a mental breakdown who want to kill themselves or those around them.
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Old 03-19-2018, 02:50 PM   #24
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No, I am not describing a crime. Im talking about people who are in the midst of a mental breakdown who want to kill themselves or those around them.
Suicide is a crime. Its in the books.


Look brother, you and me agree on about 99 percent of stuff but this one aint gonna be it lol. Who will watch the watcher?
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Old 03-19-2018, 02:51 PM   #25
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Yep. We need to get mental hospitals going the way they used to run again for sure. A month in and then release with drugs is not working for a lot of seriously mentally ill people.
That would be the right direction but back in the 1980's nearly all funding was stripped from mental facilities. I sold pharmaceuticals in that market for about 11 years.........always had increasing sales.........those sales are still increasing today! The out-patient model implemented way back then is now part of the real world issue we are all living thru.
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:04 PM   #26
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Suicide is a crime. Its in the books.


Look brother, you and me agree on about 99 percent of stuff but this one aint gonna be it lol. Who will watch the watcher?
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:15 PM   #27
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Here's the problem with the mental health track. It is/will be ran by the same bureaucrats that have proven time and time again to be incompetent, untrustworthy and abusive.
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:17 PM   #28
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Anybody that hunts defenseless animals is mentally ill....................sound familiar?


DJ
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:00 PM   #29
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Obesity is defined as a mental illness...Just to help prove your point.

.
#fakenews

You need to show your work on this one

Please show us where in the DSM it says this
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:06 PM   #30
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Would there be ANY scenario that would justify confiscating guns from an individual?
(Other than committing a crime)
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:24 PM   #31
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Would there be ANY scenario that would justify confiscating guns from an individual?
(Other than committing a crime)
NO!!!
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:42 PM   #32
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NO!!!
So, if a person was able to buy guns legally but then it is determined that that person should have never been able to buy the guns ( like the Texas church shooter) your saying that once he has them....too freakin bad he gets to keep them?
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:50 PM   #33
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So, if a person was able to buy guns legally but then it is determined that that person should have never been able to buy the guns ( like the Texas church shooter) your saying that once he has them....too freakin bad he gets to keep them?
Correct!!!
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:52 PM   #34
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Okidoke
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:55 PM   #35
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Okidoke


The Texas church shooter, by law, was not legal to buy a gun.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:03 PM   #36
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The Texas church shooter, by law, was not legal to buy a gun.
Yes I know that's why I used that as an example. Technically he was legal to buy a gun because mistakes were made.
So, regardless, your apparently saying those mistakes can't be undone.
I don't believe that should be the case.

Would be nice if everyone else would answer my question. I give you credit for your response though I disagree.

Last edited by flywise; 03-19-2018 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:49 PM   #37
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The Texas church shooter, by law, was not legal to buy a gun.
What's your reasoning on allowing him to keep guns then?
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:50 PM   #38
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Yes I know that's why I used that as an example. Technically he was legal to buy a gun because mistakes were made.
So, regardless, your apparently saying those mistakes can't be undone.
I don't believe that should be the case.

Would be nice if everyone else would answer my question. I give you credit for your response though I disagree.
So the government made a mistake? That's exactly who will be running any program confiscating guns. You're asking a group of people to approve parameters that would essentially take away an idividuals 2nd amendment rights. This is the same group that can't balance a budget. Once the parameters for confiscating guns were set there would be an agency in charge of overseeing the laws, not unlike the IRS agency that targeted conservatives, or a FBI agency that stretches truths or flat lies for about a FISA document. There are so many examples of government overreach and abuse how can anyone ask that they pass laws that infringe on an individual's 2nd amendment rights? Sure it's fine when they're at Jimmy's house, that guy is crazy. But what happens when they knock on your door?
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:54 PM   #39
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If we don't trust the govt to get this right I don't see why we trust the govt to make sure the death penalty is done right.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:07 PM   #40
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So, if a person was able to buy guns legally but then it is determined that that person should have never been able to buy the guns ( like the Texas church shooter) your saying that once he has them....too freakin bad he gets to keep them?
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Correct!!!
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The Texas church shooter, by law, was not legal to buy a gun.
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What's your reasoning on allowing him to keep guns then?
My question too.

So, if through some error on the NCIC or other database, a person convicted of a felony, family violence assault or any other offense that disqualified them from purchasing or possessing a firearm, is sold a firearm, even by mistake, they should get to keep it? Even though they never should have had it in the first place?

That's what you wrote, but surely thats not what you meant.

Last edited by Roy Munson; 03-19-2018 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:02 PM   #41
Ironman
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My question too.

So, if through some error on the NCIC or other database, a person convicted of a felony, family violence assault or any other offense that disqualified them from purchasing or possessing a firearm, is sold a firearm, even by mistake, they should get to keep it? Even though they never should have had it in the first place?

That's what you wrote, but surely thats not what you meant.
Flywise said if he was able to buy it legally. He wasn't able to buy it legally. Now, he did buy a gun that he shouldn't have been able to, I agree. But what if he already had guns, which it wouldn't surprise me if he did. Should the government have raided his house, and took his guns, once they realized the Navy said that he had disciplinary problems? Maybe after they realized he was dishonorably discharged? Is that a good enough reason to confiscate firearms?

What are the laws now on family violence? If convicted, are your guns confiscated? If that's the case, then it wasn't only the Navy who missed something, correct? Was he convicted of family violence? Was he convicted of a felony? I ask, because I don't remember the true facts.

Last edited by Ironman; 03-19-2018 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:13 PM   #42
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Flywise said if he was able to buy it legally. He wasn't able to buy it legally. Now, he did buy a gun that he shouldn't have been able to, I agree. But what if he already had guns, which it wouldn't surprise me if he did. Should the government have raided his house, and took his guns, once they realized the Navy said that he had disciplinary problems? Maybe after they realized he was dishonorably discharged? Is that a good enough reason to confiscate firearms?

What are the laws now on family violence? If convicted, are your guns confiscated? If that's the case, then it wasn't only the Navy who missed something, correct? Was he convicted of family violence? Was he convicted of a felony?
Yes he absolutely was able.to purchase the guns legally precisely because people screwed up. And yes, if the screw up was noticed after he bought the guns they should be able to confiscate them. At a very minimum the ones bought after the dishonorable discharge.
By the way, why does a dishonorable discharge prevent someone from buying a gun but a documented case of mental illness not prevent the purchase a firearm?
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:29 PM   #43
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If he was dishonorably discharged and/or convicted of family violence and/or been adjudicated as mentally defective, or several other things, then he lied on that 4473 and of course they can confiscate THAT firearm obviously. What's the due process of firearms already owned?
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:43 PM   #44
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If he was dishonorably discharged and/or convicted of family violence and/or been adjudicated as mentally defective, or several other things, then he lied on that 4473 and of course they can confiscate THAT firearm obviously. What's the due process of firearms already owned?
I think flywise was asking what you/we thought the law/due process should be, not necessarily what it currently is.
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:33 AM   #45
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If we don't trust the govt to get this right I don't see why we trust the govt to make sure the death penalty is done right.


They got it right.

https://youtu.be/lfsMMVgIToA



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Old 03-20-2018, 07:21 AM   #46
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90 years is temporary, just saying.
Yep, the citizens in NO who had their weapons confiscated during Katrina got them back years later, mostly rusted or damaged. A few never got them back. Despite having committed no crime whatsoever.
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:05 AM   #47
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I think flywise was asking what you/we thought the law/due process should be, not necessarily what it currently is.
I don't see what's wrong with the current due process. The Florida kid could've and should've been arrested on several occasions.
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:23 AM   #48
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Does this new law require the state to return the firearms within a certain amount of time if they cannot prove a person's mental illness?
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:54 AM   #49
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He is a good idea
Everyone, including felons and mentally disturbed who are legal American citizens should be allowed to constitution carry at all times and places.
No gun restrictions on anyone for Any reason
then other end of that extreme is
No crazy people are allowed to have guns.
You must be crazy if you want to own a gun
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:08 PM   #50
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Does this new law require the state to return the firearms within a certain amount of time if they cannot prove a person's mental illness?
Yes, as soon as possible
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