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Old 01-13-2015, 11:54 AM   #51
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Nice Muddy....Which Simmons is that? Do you shoot it out of a compound?

That is the 165 Land Shark and yes I shoot them out of a compound.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:00 PM   #52
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That is the 165 Land Shark and yes I shoot them out of a compound.
I have seen those heads at the Bow Zone. 6 pack of heads for $60 something which is an absolute bargain. I'd really like to try the Tree Shark but just wondering how well they will fly. My guess is that they will fly almost as good as my GK DS's. I've never seen anything fly better than a GK though so hopefully someone has some experience with them. Do yours come with bleeders?
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:06 PM   #53
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Tell me more about this broadhead.....I have considered trying the Simmons Tree Shark at 190gr if and when I run out of the 185gr GK's. I am always open to trying new (to me) heavy broadheads.
Ok I never shot a hog with one. I shot several Rams. **** thing never slowed down. But I did shoot a big red deer doe. I do not remember the weight on the arrow. But what I do remember is I lined straight up on shoulder. It was a nasty sound on impact. I did not get a complete passsthru. It did make it out the other side.

Now what I do remember is that deer looked like I shot it with my 308. It broke everything in its way

The 225 gn head came in around 230 gn. It was 1 5/16 wide and it is .072 thick. This head is not going to bend on a bone. The single bevel is on around 35 degree angle instead of 25 like most. This and the way the kick out design cause this head to really rotate. This is why this head breaks bones.
It is also very easy to sharpen.

I hunt hogs so I do not like to shoot expensive heads. This is why I shoot zwickys. And I will put the Zwickey up against any two blade out there.
But if I had the resources to do what I wanted. I would pass a law that only a helix could be brought onto my property.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:28 PM   #54
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Well that's a great testimony for the Helix's performance. Since they have right and left helix single bevels, do you think they will fly with 4 fletch mini's with a 2 degree right offset?
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Old 01-19-2015, 03:59 PM   #55
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Newman did my calculations pushing a 430 gr 280 fps 67# nitrum turbo 28" dl @ .53. Plenty
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Old 01-19-2015, 07:48 PM   #56
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Newman did my calculations pushing a 430 gr 280 fps 67# nitrum turbo 28" dl @ .53. Plenty
I think so plus with a good head it's going to be hard to beat. What arrow are you using.
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Old 01-19-2015, 08:38 PM   #57
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Black eagle deep impact .350 with 42 gr outsert and a 100 gr head. Muddy and I talked we think I'm borderline weak and will definitely be weak with a 125 head
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Old 01-19-2015, 08:54 PM   #58
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Black eagle deep impact .350 with 42 gr outsert and a 100 gr head. Muddy and I talked we think I'm borderline weak and will definitely be weak with a 125 head
trying to,remember your 29 in draw. If I'm thinking right.
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:34 PM   #59
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I shot the 160ish hog at the end of 13 season w the helix, square through both shoulders. Complete pass through at 20yds and if I remember right my arrow was 560gn,69#-28 1/2dl, don't remember speed. That's the only hog we have shot w helix.

Last edited by Hholland; 01-19-2015 at 09:38 PM. Reason: not complete
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:36 PM   #60
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trying to,remember your 29 in draw. If I'm thinking right.
28" dl
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:39 PM   #61
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28" dl
How close is the spine at that draw.

I'm fixing to pull the trigger on some carnivors to test. Going to try to push the limit with 75 to 100 gn insert. I think.
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:41 PM   #62
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I shot the 160ish hog at the end of 13 season w the helix, square through both shoulders. Complete pass through at 20yds and if I remember right my arrow was 560gn,69#-28 1/2dl, don't remember speed. That's the only hog we have shot w helix.
I was there and it was 1.60 lbs.
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:42 PM   #63
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Pretty borderline but they tuned well today with the two hours I got to play with it. Set center shot. Level nock. Fps BH'S together. Lol
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:49 PM   #64
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Pretty borderline but they tuned well today with the two hours I got to play with it. Set center shot. Level nock. Fps BH'S together. Lol
Sounds good. Now it's time to,go hunting
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:52 PM   #65
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I was there and it was 1.60 lbs.
nope u pussed out and went to diamond c, read the post, it was 2013
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:53 PM   #66
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Sounds good. Now it's time to,go hunting
I'm out of doe tags on our lease !!!
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:58 PM   #67
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I'm out of doe tags on our lease !!!
I'm thinking you need to do some testing on some big hogs
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:00 PM   #68
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I'm thinking you need to do some testing on some big hogs
Buddy might let me cut loose on some javes!!! My favorite
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:06 PM   #69
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Buddy might let me cut loose on some javes!!! My favorite
That sounds like fun I'm going to,have to do that my self one day.
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:07 PM   #70
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If I go I'm gunna line two or three up and try to get the arrow through all of them lol !
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:11 PM   #71
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If I go I'm gunna line two or three up and try to get the arrow through all of them lol !
Now that will be a test
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:14 PM   #72
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Now that will be a test
Viper trick or a drt would be the head. I think the steep angle of a grizz trick will just go about half way through the second one
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:36 PM   #73
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In the engineering curriculum, as you can imagine, we must endure physics class after physics class and then take more physics classes. That exposure has really helped me understand the importance of momentum and its value to the bow hunter. I'm guessing that the industry focuses so much on kinetic energy because the putzs over in the marketing department figure that we will get more excited about the larger, more impressive figures for KE than getting excited about .50 momentum.
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Old 01-20-2015, 06:14 AM   #74
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In the engineering curriculum, as you can imagine, we must endure physics class after physics class and then take more physics classes. That exposure has really helped me understand the importance of momentum and its value to the bow hunter. I'm guessing that the industry focuses so much on kinetic energy because the putzs over in the marketing department figure that we will get more excited about the larger, more impressive figures for KE than getting excited about .50 momentum.
I totally agree. All in the sale.


Another comment on ke. What a lot of people also don't understand is the chart they put out showing how much ke to take a certain size animal. Does not mean pass thru.
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Old 01-21-2015, 07:34 PM   #75
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In the engineering curriculum, as you can imagine, we must endure physics class after physics class and then take more physics classes. That exposure has really helped me understand the importance of momentum and its value to the bow hunter. I'm guessing that the industry focuses so much on kinetic energy because the putzs over in the marketing department figure that we will get more excited about the larger, more impressive figures for KE than getting excited about .50 momentum.
Simply due to boredom, I'm gonna ask this.
If I have an arrow that weighs 417 grains, and has a speed of 299 fps, I have 82.8 lbs of K.E.
What is the "Momentum" of my set-up?
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:05 PM   #76
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Simply due to boredom, I'm gonna ask this.

If I have an arrow that weighs 417 grains, and has a speed of 299 fps, I have 82.8 lbs of K.E.

What is the "Momentum" of my set-up?

55 but i cheated. What bow is that?
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:09 PM   #77
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55 but i cheated. What bow is that?
What is the difference in penetrating potential of 82.8. lbs of K.E., and .55 momentum?
Bowtech Prodigy, 29-72 lbs.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:13 PM   #78
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We shot an arrow that weighed 385 grains, 310 fps, with a K.E of 82.17.
What is the momentum of this arrow weight and speed?
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:17 PM   #79
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We shot an arrow that weighed 385 grains, 310 fps, with a K.E of 82.17.
What is the momentum of this arrow weight and speed?
.530. Going some where arnt you. And I do agree. But
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:23 PM   #80
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.530. Going some where arnt you. And I do agree. But
No, not really going anywhere, BUT, just wondering what the penetration potential difference is with all these numbers.
Both numbers,(K.E. and Momentum) are simply measurements of penetrating potential, and simply wondering if one of these formulas trumps the other, and why.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:23 PM   #81
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What is the difference in penetrating potential of 82.8. lbs of K.E., and .55 momentum?
Bowtech Prodigy, 29-72 lbs.
if you are comparing the two, it could be a lot. Now we know this isn't the case with your set-up but humor me for a second. I could get 82 ft/lbs of ke out my turbo pretty easy. shoot a 350 grain arrow at 325, no problem for that bow what so ever. Those numbers would give me right at 82 ft/lbs. Now conversely look at the 419 @ 299. This set-up by my calcs is right @ 83 ft/lbs, very comparable in the KE department. Now there is a reason you don't hunt with that 350 grain arrow, that reason is momentum.........the 419 @ 299 is simply a more efficient killing arrow. That's just the way I see it, but I think you feel the same too based on your selection.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:24 PM   #82
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Well I don't know where he's going. My z7x is 276 with a 420g arrow 51 momentum and 70ke. Has worked great for me on hogs and deer. It's the main reason why I haven't bought another bow. I was looking at the Prodigy.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:32 PM   #83
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No, not really going anywhere, BUT, just wondering what the penetration potential difference is with all these numbers.
Both numbers,(K.E. and Momentum) are simply measurements of penetrating potential, and simply wondering if one of these formulas trumps the other, and why.
K.E. Is amount of energy that is in all directions on impact. Momentum is the amount of energy in one direction.

This is the way I see it. The 417 gn arrow is .55 and the 385 is .53. So the numbers don't look like much, but that is a big difference.

Now will you and me see that difference. Prolly not ever. With it being .53 to .55

But I have seen it on shooting hogs. The differance on .56 and .63. Same speed same head. .56 not a pass. The .63 complete pass.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:37 PM   #84
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if you are comparing the two, it could be a lot. Now we know this isn't the case with your set-up but humor me for a second. I could get 82 ft/lbs of ke out my turbo pretty easy. shoot a 350 grain arrow at 325, no problem for that bow what so ever. Those numbers would give me right at 82 ft/lbs. Now conversely look at the 419 @ 299. This set-up by my calcs is right @ 83 ft/lbs, very comparable in the KE department. Now there is a reason you don't hunt with that 350 grain arrow, that reason is momentum.........the 419 @ 299 is simply a more efficient killing arrow. That's just the way I see it, but I think you feel the same too based on your selection.
Well, we all know that a heavier arrow "maintains" better than a lite arrow.
What I question is at what point does 'Momentum' take over 'K.E.'
We all know that speed is to some extent an accuracy enhancer on longer shots, so at what point do we decide to give up speed, for a better "momentum or K.E." number, if both numbers are simply "penetrating potential" numbers, and either are well within killing potential?
We would all like to shoot 600 grain arrows, 300 FPS, but physically for most, it's simply not possible.

If we simply select one number/ formula to base our arrow selection on, we're compromising at some point.
Some say " I want to stay above X fps, so I have to stay below X grains of arrow weight.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:42 PM   #85
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No, not really going anywhere, BUT, just wondering what the penetration potential difference is with all these numbers.

Both numbers,(K.E. and Momentum) are simply measurements of penetrating potential, and simply wondering if one of these formulas trumps the other, and why.

Here's my limited understanding.

KE is in all directions.
I tend think of it like the cavitation a firearm causes in gel block.

Momentum is in a specific direction.
Like a hot knife through butter.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:51 PM   #86
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Well, we all know that a heavier arrow "maintains" better than a lite arrow.
What I question is at what point does 'Momentum' take over 'K.E.'
We all know that speed is to some extent an accuracy enhancer on longer shots, so at what point do we decide to give up speed, for a better "momentum or K.E." number, if both numbers are simply "penetrating potential" numbers, and either are well within killing potential?
We would all like to shoot 600 grain arrows, 300 FPS, but physically for most, it's simply not possible.

If we simply select one number/ formula to base our arrow selection on, we're compromising at some point.
Some say " I want to stay above X fps, so I have to stay below X grains of arrow weight.
You are spot on. I build a lot of arrows, there is a reason that most of the builds result in an arrow from 420-440 grains......its just a nice happy medium. In most modern bows with average draw lengths it produces a trajectory that is acceptable to most and makes decent KE and momentum. There is the added benefit of running up the FOC and we can really do that with a light GPI shaft. I personally shoot a 440, another nice middle of the road set-up. Today it hit 283 which is giving me .55 momentum and 78 ft/lbs of KE which is a nice-well rounded arrow in all regards......................except the FOC...................its a little weird................@ 22%.

I just ask people what they want out of their equipment then build to suit, offer advice when solicited but at the end of the day folks want what they want. I just personally think a well rounded approach is best for most folks.
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Old 01-21-2015, 08:58 PM   #87
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I may have looked into what rocky was asking. This is what I thought he was getting at. If I have a lite arrow. That has an momentum of .55. And an arrow that is heavy but momentum is the same .55. Then why shoot slow when you can shoot fast.

Ok let's start by saying this can not happen from the same bow. No matter what bow you shoot. The heavy arrow will always have more momentum.

Now let's take two bows. Say 350 ibo and a 350 arrow. Momentum is .543. Now same bow just adding 40 gn now arrow is 390 took momentum to .583. That is a lot.
Now a bow with ibo 330. With 350 gn arrow. Momentum is .512 Now put an 390 gn arrow momentum is .548. A 425 gn arrow is now .575.

so as you can see no matter what momentum goes up. So if you have an high ibo bow. You can shoot a lighter arrow and it will penetrate as good as a lower ibo bow with an heavy arrow. All them numbers was based on ibo number arrow gn numbers at 70 lb pull at 30 in draw and nothing on the string.
This is part of the reason I shoot a heavy arrow. The other is my bow is very quiet at the shot.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:02 PM   #88
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Here's my limited understanding.

KE is in all directions.
I tend think of it like the cavitation a firearm causes in gel block.

Momentum is in a specific direction.
Like a hot knife through butter.
I disagree.
Both are measurements of force to push the head thru mass.
The head will weigh (in most cases) between 85 and 150 grains, with shafts weighing more, so we have more mass pushing the head through the material, regardless of what that material is.
If I will agree to anything, more total mass is more penetrating potential,( if speed is irrelevant), but I'm not really sure this is true.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:06 PM   #89
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Well, we all know that a heavier arrow "maintains" better than a lite arrow.
What I question is at what point does 'Momentum' take over 'K.E.'
We all know that speed is to some extent an accuracy enhancer on longer shots, so at what point do we decide to give up speed, for a better "momentum or K.E." number, if both numbers are simply "penetrating potential" numbers, and either are well within killing potential?
We would all like to shoot 600 grain arrows, 300 FPS, but physically for most, it's simply not possible.

If we simply select one number/ formula to base our arrow selection on, we're compromising at some point.
Some say " I want to stay above X fps, so I have to stay below X grains of arrow weight.
Momentum never takes over K.E. In archery K.E. Should never be look at.

But where do we start. In my experance. I know that I start getting good results at around .56 momentum. So that is a number I use. And I talk to people about
Now is that an absolute number no. People kill everyday with a lot less.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:14 PM   #90
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Momentum never takes over K.E. In archery K.E. Should never be look at.

But where do we start. In my experance. I know that I start getting good results at around .56 momentum. So that is a number I use. And I talk to people about
Now is that an absolute number no. People kill everyday with a lot less.
If you were to choose to shoot below 250 FPS, couldn't you build an arrow that produced higher momentum numbers?
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:15 PM   #91
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I disagree.
Both are measurements of force to push the head thru mass.
The head will weigh (in most cases) between 85 and 150 grains, with shafts weighing more, so we have more mass pushing the head through the material, regardless of what that material is.
If I will agree to anything, more total mass is more penetrating potential,( if speed is irrelevant), but I'm not really sure this is true.
Yes both are measurements. But momentum has an direction. K.E. Does not. So in an arrow that relies on moving Foward to get through the object it is shot at need momentum. No K.E.

Now if all we wanted was the arrow to explode in all directions on impact then we need K.E.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:16 PM   #92
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If you were to choose to shoot below 250 FPS, couldn't you build an arrow that produced higher momentum numbers?
Yes as long as it's the same bow.

If I shoot a 353 gn arrow from my bow I get close to 302 fps. That is .473 momentum. My 483 gn arrow shoots 263 fps. That is .566 momentum. My 560 gn is around 243 fps and my momentum is .604

Last edited by enewman; 01-21-2015 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:21 PM   #93
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Yes as long as it's the same bow.
Again, it's a compromise.
In the case of most modern compound bows, the difference in speed, K.E. and momentum is negligible, assuming arrow weights +/- 400 grains.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:28 PM   #94
enewman
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Again, it's a compromise.
In the case of most modern compound bows, the difference in speed, K.E. and momentum is negligible, assuming arrow weights +/- 400 grains.
Yes I would think so with your arrow being at that 400 mark.

But for me and my short draw I have to be willing to loose something to,get to the penetration I want. And that is speed. Just need to build a bow with a pully system so I can shoot a 30 in draw bow
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:58 AM   #95
bowhuntntxn
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Here is one quick question for all the high FOC, high momentum folks. Is a complete pass through on an animal more effective in killing an animal than a non pass through, assuming of course that the animal is shot in the area of the lungs/heart as opposed to the hind quarter area?

IMO all of this brain melting calculating of momentum versus KE versus what ever is mostly pointless when tens of thousands of animals die every year to the "average" set up. Building an arrow that has the correct length and spine seems more efficient and speed, KE and momentum are by products that neither enhance of diminish performance.

Again that is my opinion, and folks are going to do what they do.
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Old 01-22-2015, 05:55 AM   #96
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Here is one quick question for all the high FOC, high momentum folks. Is a complete pass through on an animal more effective in killing an animal than a non pass through, assuming of course that the animal is shot in the area of the lungs/heart as opposed to the hind quarter area?

IMO all of this brain melting calculating of momentum versus KE versus what ever is mostly pointless when tens of thousands of animals die every year to the "average" set up. Building an arrow that has the correct length and spine seems more efficient and speed, KE and momentum are by products that neither enhance of diminish performance.

Again that is my opinion, and folks are going to do what they do.
You do not need a complete passsthru to kill. An complete pass is so you have two holes leaking blood not one. And with a complete pass the arrow is not pluging up the only hole you have.

And your right it is pointless to lots of hunters that don't give a crap when out hunting. They buy a bow get arrows sight in on a pie plate at 20 and go shoot animals. In the shoulder , guts, butt, and all in between. They get Poor penetrations and loose animals. Then there is the lucky ones, that are just lucky.

Then there are a few and I mean just a few. That try to take bow hunting to the next level. We try to tune our bows beyond perfect. Then we do everything we can to build an arrow not for the good shoots. But for that one bad shot because something went wrong. The arrow hits square on the shoulder.

This is where all of my time that I have waisted. Trying to build that heavy, high foc arrow. All the times I've spent testing to find that momentum number that works for me. What weight of arrow that makes my bow just a little quieter to help slow down that deer reaction so that I can still make a good shot. So when I hit that animal square on the shoulder. I kill that animal. I recover that animal. And I have not injured or lost an animal that God as given me to take and feed my family.

I can guarantee you I will have a bad shot, I will lose an animal, but at the end of all my waisted time. I will at least no that I built the best arrow I could for the job.

Last edited by enewman; 01-22-2015 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 01-22-2015, 06:18 AM   #97
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You're not wasting your time.
This is what YOU want out of your bow, and it's good info for others to consider.
There are many different directions to take when bowhunting, and nearly all will get us to the same end result if we do our part correctly.
Less experienced bowhunters typically will start with a standard +/- 400 grain arrow and an FOC around 10-13 % might read this and start trying to change their set-up without understanding that what they have will kill.
In other words, inadequacies of the shooter can't be fixed with different arrows, or other components until that shooter can shoot better than the equipment he has, has killed enough animals to see results from his current set-up and then, only then, should he start this process that you are going thru.
Speed is still foremost in the minds of bowhunters, as you can see by the bows being put out are advertised according to the speed they "might" shoot, selling to the mainstream bowhunter.
It would be/actually is hard to tell a newer bowhunter that he needs to slow his bow down with an arrow like yours.
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Old 01-22-2015, 06:40 AM   #98
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Morning rocky.

You are completely correct. Part of my post was just being sarcastic and to give bowhuntntxn a hard time.

We do need to remember about the new archer. That is your job. Get them in an good bow. Get them shooting. And after a few season. Then maybe interduce them into the next level. That last thing we want to do is discourage an new bow hunter. I never in person talk about this type of
Info with a new hunter

Kind of like scuba diving. I have made several dives in the 250 ft mark. But I would never talk to a new diver about that. Heck I would not talk about it to some season divers.

A lot of these post are due to people looking for answer. And hopefully we can answer then with out completely screwing them up.
Thanks
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