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Old 03-15-2018, 11:22 PM   #251
Encinal
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Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
Congrats on the big released buck. Of course genetics are the biggest factor in your example.

In a native population, age is the easiest factor to control. The native genetics have a huge effect on buck’s potential. Nutrition is important and allows deer to express their best version of themselves whether it be a buck or doe. Without luck it is almost impossible to improve native deer without addressing all three factors. They’re all important, unless you cut the corner
Dude... its a pet chill out.

The argument misses the point.

Of course the biggest animals of any subset with equal nutrition and age are going to be sorted primarily by their genetic ability to grow antlers...

I mean... duh...

put 10 same aged clones out there of the same deer and feed them different... guess what...

Put 10 different aged clones out there with the same food... Guess what...
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:34 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Peyton View Post
Congrats on the big released buck. Of course genetics are the biggest factor in your example.

In a native population, age is the easiest factor to control. The native genetics have a huge effect on buck’s potential. Nutrition is important and allows deer to express their best version of themselves whether it be a buck or doe. Without luck it is almost impossible to improve native deer without addressing all three factors. They’re all important, unless you cut the corner
Thanks, he is not even close to my biggest. But he is pretty. I breed for Typicals.
Most hill country high fenced ranches will Never catch up with you south Texas high fenced ranches unless they "cut the corner". They simply do not have the genetics. Antlers or body size.
Do you think their deer can catch yours?
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:47 PM   #253
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Thanks, he is not even close to my biggest. But he is pretty. I breed for Typicals.
Most hill country high fenced ranches will Never catch up with you south Texas high fenced ranches unless they "cut the corner". They simply do not have the genetics. Antlers or body size.
Do you think their deer can catch yours?
They were equal before the 30’s...
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:51 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Thanks, he is not even close to my biggest. But he is pretty. I breed for Typicals.

Most hill country high fenced ranches will Never catch up with you south Texas high fenced ranches unless they "cut the corner". They simply do not have the genetics. Antlers or body size.

Do you think their deer can catch yours?


You lost me when you “cut the corner”.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:34 AM   #255
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You lost me when you “cut the corner”.
Hey buddy, that was your words.
My deer are as pure Texas as yours, which aren't!!!!
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:38 AM   #256
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My best friend raises deer their only food is out of a protein feeder
He had a 1 1/2 year old buck score 225 this past year
Genetics
Protein
Age
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:53 AM   #257
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Hey buddy, that was your words.
My deer are as pure Texas as yours, which aren't!!!!
That doesn't make sense
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:10 AM   #258
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That doesn't make sense
Years ago, deer were brought in to Texas by the government to repopulate. These deer were from up North.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:12 AM   #259
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Years ago, deer were brought in to Texas by the government to repopulate. These deer were from up North.
Not into Dimmit County or anywhere close.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:27 AM   #260
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Years ago, deer were brought in to Texas by the government to repopulate. These deer were from up North.
I couldn't find the Ron Burgandy meme.
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:22 AM   #261
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You have to have the genetics to have the potential to grow big deer you can feed deer with bad genetics all you want yes he probably will get bigger then what he would on natural browse but he will not be a giant it’s just like human you can eat right lift weights until you turn blue every day if it’s not in your genes to have 20” arms your not going to have them naturally that is but we are not talking about illegal steroids here are we ? And yes they need to be of age to reach your full potential but with out genetics all you will have is a bunch of 120” 130” mature deer running around that’s just the facts .
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:55 AM   #262
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Big Big Deer are Truly just Freaks Of Nature. Meaning they are Not that Common regardless what People Like to Believe Out Side the Pen. By Raising the amount of available Food in an area to Support a Bigger Herd witch allowing More Deer to Survive . Will Allow Well Managed Ranch's To have a Bigger Selections in order to Fine Tune the Surviving Deer Herd Post Culling. So witch one Played the Biggest Role?
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:15 AM   #263
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Big Big Deer are Truly just Freaks Of Nature. Meaning they are Not that Common regardless what People Like to Believe Out Side the Pen. By Raising the amount of available Food in an area to Support a Bigger Herd witch allowing More Deer to Survive . Will Allow Well Managed Ranch's To have a Bigger Selections in order to Fine Tune the Surviving Deer Herd Post Culling. So witch one Played the Biggest Role?
Bo, I thought you were out on a boat, with no cell service?????

Fair point, but if I was gonna feed a herd of wild deer, I would rather start with, say, your Mexico herd instead of these Pipe Creek(hill country)scrubs.
They are genetically superior, do you not agree?
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:24 AM   #264
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I Agree They Live in a Area That allows Far Better nutrition Witch Built a Better, Stronger Genetic Trait Visually. Witch one is Superior I Can Not Say Honesty.

My Dad Always Said "I Don't Care if the Deer only Weighs 75lbs as Long as 20lbs is Horns":

I said I was Offshore. Not On The Moon Buddy
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:32 PM   #265
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These chicken and egg discussions are always fascinating. Of course it takes great genetics , age and nutrition to grow top end deer.To me the bigger question is are you getting the full potential out of the deer you have? I propose the answer is almost always no. I also propose that almost all herds have the potential to grow deer big enough to satisfy most with just age and nutrition.

Working with native home grown deer we are consistently growing 200"+ bucks essentially every year in two different countries using only age and nutrition { No dmp, ttt or any other 'manipulation'} . Maybe we hit the genetic lottery? Maybe our results aren't transferrable to all herds? Or maybe most herds in the country are simply on insufficient nutrition to realize their full genetic potential and have been for a long time! Its curious that here in La. we are growing bucks far larger than not only our neighborhood but the state at large. Why? Whats the difference? I can say with certainty that our deer are on a higher nutritional plane than any other herd in La. I am aware of. And have been for a long time. And of course we let deer mature.

I will agree it takes a little time { generally challenging in a fast food society } for the full impacts of nutrition to be realized but once established the benefits continue to accrue. I will also agree that genetics can be controlled in a pen environment to grow stupendous deer. In that respect the genetic question is unarguable. Another question remains though...can you work with the genetics available to you and grow deer that meet or exceed your expectations? For me the answer to that question is unarguably yes.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:10 PM   #266
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To add another data point to this discussion here is another experience I personably saw.

Years back Jackie Brittingham bought a pen raised deer with supposed pedigree genetics. Was a mature deer [ I don't recall exact age ] but while it had unique width was nothing special at all . Very average 8 pt. The previous owner kept the deer as a pet feeding it mostly corn as well as whatever was in the pen where it was raised.

Jackie gave the deer to Dr. Harry Jacobson who at the time ran the Ms. State research pens in Starkville. Dr. Jacobson put the deer on a high protein diet and with the following set of antlers the buck exploded growing well over 200"s of antler . He added almost 100" over his previous best set.

The point is you can have the greatest genetics in the world but without quality nutrition the potential will not be realized.

Last edited by elgato; 03-16-2018 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:15 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by elgato View Post
These chicken and egg discussions are always fascinating. Of course it takes great genetics , age and nutrition to grow top end deer.To me the bigger question is are you getting the full potential out of the deer you have? I propose the answer is almost always no. I also propose that almost all herds have the potential to grow deer big enough to satisfy most with just age and nutrition.

Working with native home grown deer we are consistently growing 200"+ bucks essentially every year in two different countries using only age and nutrition { No dmp, ttt or any other 'manipulation'} . Maybe we hit the genetic lottery? Maybe our results aren't transferrable to all herds? Or maybe most herds in the country are simply on insufficient nutrition to realize their full genetic potential and have been for a long time! Its curious that here in La. we are growing bucks far larger than not only our neighborhood but the state at large. Why? Whats the difference? I can say with certainty that our deer are on a higher nutritional plane than any other herd in La. I am aware of. And have been for a long time. And of course we let deer mature.

I will agree it takes a little time { generally challenging in a fast food society } for the full impacts of nutrition to be realized but once established the benefits continue to accrue. I will also agree that genetics can be controlled in a pen environment to grow stupendous deer. In that respect the genetic question is unarguable. Another question remains though...can you work with the genetics available to you and grow deer that meet or exceed your expectations? For me the answer to that question is unarguably yes.
Yes, you definitely got it figured out on your places, well done sir.

Another prime example is my neighbor to the South.
High fenced for years and years. Pellet feeders gallore + all they can eat alfalfa. Ranch stays green, not overgrazed.
I have never seen a deer in there that would go 130". Small bodies, small antlers.
It's disturbing, I shew them away from the fence.
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Old 03-16-2018, 04:45 PM   #268
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I think el gato is 100% correct. Unfortunately, we are in the Texas hill country so we can’t really have spring or summer food plots due to lack of rainfall and poor soil so it’s hard for us to make sure our bucks reach their true genetic potential. We would have to irrigate our food plots to get continuous results and we all know that’s way too much $$$. We feed protein year-round and cottonseed 8 months a year but studies show that they will only eat on average around 25-35% of their diet out of a protein feeder. I know some deer are different and will be a protein hog but deer are browsers and would rather browse than stick their head in a tube and eat protein. I think if you are able to offer a buffet of nutrition with year-round protein and year-round food plots that you will definitely see a major improvement and help a buck reach his true genetic potential.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:02 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Darton, nobody in this thread is talking about CWD. Like I said my deer are clean. We were discussing if genetics or food was more important.
Now, you claim that my runt is bigger than the natives because he is 1/16th Northern?
SO, it is Genetics??
That small percentage of Northern blood has very little to do with it. Now the fact that there has been a Big buck breeding big blooded does in the pens for 25 generations has a lot to do with it.

True, but your practices produce and spread it! Here is the point! Take your prized bought and paid for breeder buck and then take your native whitetail buck! They can have the greatest genetics and you can pump all of the protein and any type of steroids in them you want, but without age they will not reach their peak! No matter how much protein you shove in his face or the genetics he or she may have without age it doesn't matter! Shoot your prize at 2 1/2 or shoot him at 5 1/2! Do you think that might change his gross score or your price tag? Age is first period!

Last edited by Darton; 03-16-2018 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:34 PM   #270
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True, but your practices produce and spread it! Here is the point! Take your prized bought and paid for breeder buck and then take your native whitetail buck! They can have the greatest genetics and you cant pump all of the protein and any type of steroids in them you want, but without age they will not reach their peak! No matter how much protein you shove in his face or the genetics he or she may have without age it doesn't matter! Shoot your prize at 2 1/2 or shoot him at 5 1/2! Do you think that might change his gross score or your price tag? Age is first period!
Huh?
I just posted a pic of a beautiful typical that has not had 1 pellet of protien in 5 1
/2 years. NOTHING!! A little corn and rain soaked coastal hay.
The only thing that deer has going for him IS genetics.
When I drove in there the other day I was scratching my head wondering what the heck he was eating. The place is rocks, cedars and a few oaks.
We don't give any deer steroids unless they are Super sick. That is a myth.
And I agree with you on the age, he has shown his best rack so far at 7 1/2.
Oh, and he will never be shot. He is busy breeding these sorry arrzed hill country does.

Last edited by bukkskin; 03-16-2018 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:03 PM   #271
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Huh?
I just posted a pic of a beautiful typical that has not had 1 pellet of protien in 5 1
/2 years. NOTHING!! A little corn and rain soaked coastal hay.
The only thing that deer has going for him IS genetics.
When I drove in there the other day I was scratching my head wondering what the heck he was eating. The place is rocks, cedars and a few oaks.
We don't give any deer steroids unless they are Super sick. That is a myth.
And I agree with you on the age, he has shown his best rack so far at 7 1/2.
Oh, and he will never be shot. He is breeding these sorry arrzed hill country does.
So, we both agree that age is more important than genetics or food? I don't care if your prized buck is breeding goats! Without the age the genetics and diet do not matter!
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:11 PM   #272
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So, we both agree that age is more important than genetics or food? I don't care if your prized buck is breeding goats! Without the age the genetics and diet do not matter!
No sir, Genetics is first and foremost in my opinion.
But yes, the older they get the bigger they get, until a certain point, then they will decline just like you and I.
And he is not breeding goats for your information, he is breeding a ton of native sorry arzzed hill country does
Hehe
Btw, He is not my prized buck. Just a middle of the road deer that we turned out to improve my buddy's herd, and let him live since I bottleraised him.

Last edited by bukkskin; 03-16-2018 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:20 PM   #273
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Lol, so killing a deer with superior genetics and diet around the age of .5 to 4.5 years of age produces more results than taking them in there prime of 5.5 +?. Age is the difference, but in a deer pen I guess you can control all of the factors you believe to be important!
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:22 PM   #274
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..
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:29 PM   #275
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Lol, so killing a deer with superior genetics and diet around the age of .5 to 4.5 years of age produces more results than taking them in there prime of 5.5 +?. Age is the difference, but in a deer pen I guess you can control all of the factors you believe to be important!
I don't shoot any trophy deer until I believe they are 6 1/2, so yes age is important.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:24 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by elgato View Post
These chicken and egg discussions are always fascinating. Of course it takes great genetics , age and nutrition to grow top end deer.To me the bigger question is are you getting the full potential out of the deer you have? I propose the answer is almost always no. I also propose that almost all herds have the potential to grow deer big enough to satisfy most with just age and nutrition.

Working with native home grown deer we are consistently growing 200"+ bucks essentially every year in two different countries using only age and nutrition { No dmp, ttt or any other 'manipulation'} . Maybe we hit the genetic lottery? Maybe our results aren't transferrable to all herds? Or maybe most herds in the country are simply on insufficient nutrition to realize their full genetic potential and have been for a long time! Its curious that here in La. we are growing bucks far larger than not only our neighborhood but the state at large. Why? Whats the difference? I can say with certainty that our deer are on a higher nutritional plane than any other herd in La. I am aware of. And have been for a long time. And of course we let deer mature.

I will agree it takes a little time { generally challenging in a fast food society } for the full impacts of nutrition to be realized but once established the benefits continue to accrue. I will also agree that genetics can be controlled in a pen environment to grow stupendous deer. In that respect the genetic question is unarguable. Another question remains though...can you work with the genetics available to you and grow deer that meet or exceed your expectations? For me the answer to that question is unarguably yes.
Rusty,
Have you ever been to the Texas Hill country, hunting deer?
If you ever come thru San Antonio and have an extra evening, you and your family have an open invite to share a steak with us at our place.
We can sit by the fence and observe my neighbors native herd.
It is pathetic, not at all the deer you started with in LA or Mexico.
I bet it would be an eye opener for you. Bunch of jackelopes!!!!
You too Darton, come see for yourself.
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:45 AM   #277
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Rusty,
Have you ever been to the Texas Hill country, hunting deer?
If you ever come thru San Antonio and have an extra evening, you and your family have an open invite to share a steak with us at our place.
We can sit by the fence and observe my neighbors native herd.
It is pathetic, not at all the deer you started with in LA or Mexico.
I bet it would be an eye opener for you. Bunch of jackelopes!!!!
You too Darton, come see for yourself.
Thanks for the invitation and I'll take you up on it should I be passing thru San Antonio.

I have never hunted the hill country but I did live in Austin Westlake area for a couple years in the late 90's . Had deer hanging out in my yard and saw plenty of the hill country deer while tooling around the area.

I have a 'theory' about the hill country deer. Not being a scientist I am unencumbered with the scientific method so I can go out on a limb not always right but never in doubt. Memory suggests that one of the biggest bucks ever to come out of Texas came from Brady which I think? qualifies as hill country. This before modern management feeding etc. And he was a giant by even todays standards. What would other bucks from the area look like from that time frame?

So what happened to the hill country. My 'theory' proposes that years back the population in the area was much lower and quality was higher. The habitat was very conducive to whitetails and the population exploded.{ Were screw worms an issue in hill country?} With the population explosion habitat was destroyed, nutrition plummeted and the herd suffered. This has continued for a long long time. Only in a relatively recent few years have feeding etc been employed to try improving the herd. Population remains a problem in many areas and in that climate it takes a long long time for habitat to recover.

So what you have is the same reason deer in the FLa. Keys are small....not much quality food for the last good many generations. Hence body sizes shrink adapting to the environment. Much like historically many Asian populations of humans adapted to the environment by being smaller that their well fed coharts in more lush parts of the world.

Thus in a nutshell my 'theory' proposes the hill country deer are small because of gross overpopulation for decades, destroying the habitat, diminishing nutrition creating an epigenetic response to the environment by becoming smaller. This took time. And it will take a long time to recover even with supplemental feeding and crops. By the same token epigenetics can be used to improve genetic responses by elevating the nutritional plane over time. While challenged by habitat destruction but can still be accomplished though it takes generations. Again our fast food want it now society isn't usually patient for such a process. That doesn't mean its not real or that the genetic potential doesn't exist for the hill country to grow bucks comparative to other parts of the country. It simply means that it could take a long time to crawl out of the hole.

Thus back to the question of genetics...I contend that genetics are not static or permanently fixed. Rather, they can be improved ...or diminished...both in the short term somewhat and rather profoundly in the long term . There are numerous scientific studies verifying this.

Last edited by elgato; 03-17-2018 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:16 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by elgato View Post
Thanks for the invitation and I'll take you up on it should I be passing thru San Antonio.

I have never hunted the hill country but I did live in Austin Westlake area for a couple years in the late 90's . Had deer hanging out in my yard and saw plenty of the hill country deer while tooling around the area.

I have a 'theory' about the hill country deer. Not being a scientist I am unencumbered with the scientific method so I can go out on a limb not always right but never in doubt. Memory suggests that one of the biggest bucks ever to come out of Texas came from Brady which I think? qualifies as hill country. This before modern management feeding etc. And he was a giant by even todays standards. What would other bucks from the area look like from that time frame?

So what happened to the hill country. My 'theory' proposes that years back the population in the area was much lower and quality was higher. The habitat was very conducive to whitetails and the population exploded.{ Were screw worms an issue in hill country?} With the population explosion habitat was destroyed, nutrition plummeted and the herd suffered. This has continued for a long long time. Only in a relatively recent few years have feeding etc been employed to try improving the herd. Population remains a problem in many areas and in that climate it takes a long long time for habitat to recover.

So what you have is the same reason deer in the FLa. Keys are small....not much quality food for the last good many generations. Hence body sizes shrink adapting to the environment. Much like historically many Asian populations of humans adapted to the environment by being smaller that their well fed coharts in more lush parts of the world.

Thus in a nutshell my 'theory' proposes the hill country deer are small because of gross overpopulation for decades, destroying the habitat, diminishing nutrition creating an epigenetic response to the environment by becoming smaller. This took time. And it will take a long time to recover even with supplemental feeding and crops. By the same token epigenetics can be used to improve genetic responses by elevating the nutritional plane over time. While challenged by habitat destruction but can still be accomplished though it takes generations. Again our fast food want it now society isn't usually patient for such a process. That doesn't mean its not real or that the genetic potential doesn't exist for the hill country to grow bucks comparative to other parts of the country. It simply means that it could take a long time to crawl out of the hole.

Thus back to the question of genetics...I contend that genetics are not static or permanently fixed. Rather, they can be improved ...or diminished...both in the short term somewhat and rather profoundly in the long term . There are numerous scientific studies verifying this.
I agree,
Plus, for generations the herd has been "shot down" from the top, genetically.

You have 2 bucks eating at a feeder. One is a 3 yr old 10 point and one is a 6 yr old 6 point.
Guess who got the bullet??

But, it seems like more and more people are trying to supplement and manage the deer for quality. So that is a good thing.
We shall see.
Thanks
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:47 AM   #279
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ttt for a great thread!
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:11 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
I agree,
Plus, for generations the herd has been "shot down" from the top, genetically.

You have 2 bucks eating at a feeder. One is a 3 yr old 10 point and one is a 6 yr old 6 point.
Guess who got the bullet??

But, it seems like more and more people are trying to supplement and manage the deer for quality. So that is a good thing.
We shall see.
Thanks
Genetics can’t be moved up or down with a rifle, especially in the situation you describe where young deer do most of the breeding.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:46 AM   #281
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Genetics can’t be moved up or down with a rifle, especially in the situation you describe where young deer do most of the breeding.
I was on an intensively managed lease. For 10 years spikes did not count toward buck quotas (I was there the last 2 years). At the end of that we never saw spikes and our 1.5yo deer were normally 8pts (baskets) and I did see one 12pt 1.5yo with a 6" spread and the tines were only about 1". The lease next to us shot a 4.5yo deer that grossed 180+, he looked 6.5 based on nose, body and hocks.

The next biologist believed that every deer could be a trophy and stopped this. 7 years later most of our deer at 1.5 were either 4 or 6 pts. And there were spikes to be seen every hunt.

You are right that young deer (3.5) do most the breeding, so if you take the spikes out at 1.5 they do not breed.......you move the genetics.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:23 AM   #282
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genetics first. Food 2nd.

Just like a human with bad genetics you can only do so much naturally
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:08 AM   #283
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Genetics can’t be moved up or down with a rifle, especially in the situation you describe where young deer do most of the breeding.
Not sure I could ever grasp that.
So, let's take it to the extreme.

If the entire North American continent was managed the same way, And I mean every deer participated. None slipped thru the cracks.

For a thousand years(1,000), all bucks were reviewed at 2 yrs old. Anything with greater than 4 points was killed off. Anything with 4 or less points got to live and breed.

After the 1,000 was up. We let them all grow.

Your telling me that we would be in the same position, antlerwise, than if it was the opposite way on culling these 2 yr olds?
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:59 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outbreaker View Post
I was on an intensively managed lease. For 10 years spikes did not count toward buck quotas (I was there the last 2 years). At the end of that we never saw spikes and our 1.5yo deer were normally 8pts (baskets) and I did see one 12pt 1.5yo with a 6" spread and the tines were only about 1". The lease next to us shot a 4.5yo deer that grossed 180+, he looked 6.5 based on nose, body and hocks.

The next biologist believed that every deer could be a trophy and stopped this. 7 years later most of our deer at 1.5 were either 4 or 6 pts. And there were spikes to be seen every hunt.

You are right that young deer (3.5) do most the breeding, so if you take the spikes out at 1.5 they do not breed.......you move the genetics.
I know of a ranch that doesn't kill spikes and killed the state record... twice.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:01 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by bukkskin View Post
Not sure I could ever grasp that.
So, let's take it to the extreme.

If the entire North American continent was managed the same way, And I mean every deer participated. None slipped thru the cracks.

For a thousand years(1,000), all bucks were reviewed at 2 yrs old. Anything with greater than 4 points was killed off. Anything with 4 or less points got to live and breed.

After the 1,000 was up. We let them all grow.

Your telling me that we would be in the same position, antlerwise, than if it was the opposite way on culling these 2 yr olds?

For a thousand years all bucks were put in an impossible to achieve hypothetical situation where every buck was correctly selected and shot with a rifle consistently by 30 successive generations of hunters with no other changes to their environment or noise in the system.

Sounds doable... you get on that.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:08 PM   #286
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Genetics can’t be moved up or down with a rifle, especially in the situation you describe where young deer do most of the breeding.
Agree, most people will never get this!! The only situation where it might help is under an intensely managed high fence but even then the bell curve shift is minimal, and it takes years to see results.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:40 PM   #287
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I know of a ranch that doesn't kill spikes and killed the state record... twice.
Maybe you should have been killing spikes and y'all could of did it 3 times.


JK Marco.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:27 PM   #288
bukkskin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
For a thousand years all bucks were put in an impossible to achieve hypothetical situation where every buck was correctly selected and shot with a rifle consistently by 30 successive generations of hunters with no other changes to their environment or noise in the system.

Sounds doable... you get on that.
Answer the question??
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Agree, most people will never get this!! The only situation where it might help is under an intensely managed high fence but even then the bell curve shift is minimal, and it takes years to see results.
Shane, ya'll don't take any culls?

Actually, I hope that both of you are correct. I don't shoot any spikes and don't like having to kill culls (management ) deer. But our ranch owner gets frustrated if we don't shoot enough.
I would love to let them ALL grow up, more mature deer for everyone.
I mean, if it is not gonna help the genetics, why not?

Last edited by bukkskin; 03-19-2018 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:41 PM   #289
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We've never shot spikes anywhere. And we let them ALL grow up. Call them culls or management deer or whatever...all semantics. What i can tell you is the hunters that get to shoot them are very excited. The only logic I employ to removing bucks is herd population management.

I always found the 'culling to improve genetics' idea more an excuse to shoot deer than anything practical. I personally do not believe you can with great consistency tell a bucks genetic potential till he's at least 4. I've seen to many surprises with young deer. So we start removing deer at 4 [ or 3 for those that believe ] yet how many will also shoot a trophy at 4 or 5 or even 6. How many are willing to let all the top end bucks grow old and die of old age to maximize their breeding?

So in essence we are killing the 'inferior' deer to improve the genetics then turning around and shooting the trophies cause ...well they are the best deer out there.Hmmm!
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:31 AM   #290
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Guys that breed need the “shot down genetics” story to sell deer.

It’s just a marketing tactic.
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