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Old 10-30-2018, 09:34 AM   #1
sir shovelhands
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Default Show Me What You've Got: Sub-Moa Guns

I figured it couldn't hurt to have a single thread to let people show off their sub-moa guns.

Since there is some argument over the number of shots to be considered a "real" sub-moa gun, lets set the base-line as 10 shots @ 100 yards (which I don't think anyone can argue with). I think it's fine to show multiple groups to get to 10 shots (since most people don't normally shoot groups that size), as long as the groups are 3 or more shots. BUT, your rig will be judged by the worst group. Remember, MOA is 1.047" at 100 yards.

So:

-describe your rig
-pics of your rig
-Load data
-Where you shot it, and shooting setup
-Pics of target(s)


I'll go first.


Rig:
-American Rifle Company Mausingfield action, SA, LH
-Timney Calvin Elite Trigger
-Proof Research Barrel, 24" Sendero, 1:8 twist, 6.5 SAUM, chambered and threaded by Pete Pieper
-Manners T4A stock, carbon fiber
-PTG Stealth M5 Magwell
-APA little b@stard gen 2 muzzle brake
-American Rifle Company Scope Rings
-Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 4.5-27x56mm scope

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Load Data: Hornady Brass, 140gr ELD, 60.0gr of H1000, Fed 215 primers, Varying OAL. This is my second set of test loads for OAL on this rifle, which I narrowed down the best OAL to between 0.04 and 0.07 off lands. A total of 15 shots (one missing from first group was for checking sighting).

Range and setup: American Shooting Centers, 100 yard range, shot off of sandbags (and I'm not a great shot)

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So, this is currently a 0.901 MOA rifle (by worst group).

I'm hoping to work up some different powder loads in Dec @ 0.07" off lands and see if I can get it nice and tight.
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Old 10-30-2018, 03:27 PM   #2
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Lets try see multiple groups on a single target to keep the cherry picking to a minimum.. It's all about consistency. To achieve that you have to have the ammo, weapon and shooter clicking together. If you are missing anyone of those your accuracy will suffer. Here are some examples of mine. These are all factory guns, in fact the bottom 10 shot groups were shot with an AR15.

Three 5 shot groups @100yds shot back to back, welllllll under 1moa




Five 4 shot groups @200yds shot back to back. welllll under 1 moa




Six 3 shot groups fired back to back @ 100yds 5 of the 6 were wellllll under 1moa



Five 10 shots groups @ 100yds shot back to back. Again, welllll under 1moa

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Old 10-30-2018, 03:38 PM   #3
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well I think this stuff is awesome. one day I will have more time or decide to make it a priority.
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Old 10-30-2018, 03:59 PM   #4
sir shovelhands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendit View Post
Lets try see multiple groups on a single target to keep the cherry picking to a minimum...
Agreed, I just didn't take a whole pic before I tossed the target. Will for the next round. Nice shooting btw.
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Old 10-30-2018, 04:05 PM   #5
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Savage 12 LRP 6.5 Creedmoor
140 gr ELD-M Hornady
Sightron siii 8-32x56 LR 30mm tube

Milk jug is 5 shots at 1200yds on 10 5/8"
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Old 10-30-2018, 04:14 PM   #6
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Remington 783 in .308
DIY rattle can paint job
Sightron S-tac 3-16x42 30mm tube
Federal Gold Metal Match 175gr SMK

The gong was 4 shots at 600 yds
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Old 10-30-2018, 09:42 PM   #7
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5 shot group at 100
Remington 700 5r 308-26Ē barrel
42.5 grains varget
168 amax
Should have never sold the gun, large regret!



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Old 10-30-2018, 10:00 PM   #8
oneisnone
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Only grouping photo I have is this 5 shot group
6mm creedmoor custom
Trued 700
Proof 26Ē 8 twist
Calvin elite
MPA comp chassis
Omega can
Hornady 108 eld-m factory rounds
Leupold MK5 5-25 H59



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Old 10-30-2018, 10:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuramaxDude View Post
Savage 12 LRP 6.5 Creedmoor
140 gr ELD-M Hornady
Sightron siii 8-32x56 LR 30mm tube

Milk jug is 5 shots at 1200yds on 10 5/8"
One mile? You sir, have unique skills!
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:11 PM   #10
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I have a few.

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Old 10-30-2018, 11:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
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One mile? You sir, have unique skills!
Lol nah just some extra free time and a place to go with good conditions that day. That is a 16Ē plate in the pic.
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:21 PM   #12
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A few others.Name:  IMG_20180423_080852_196.jpg
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Old 10-30-2018, 11:56 PM   #13
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Did it with this stock Rock River AR with a bull barrel off the deck of my cabin. Can’t post the pic.
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Old 10-31-2018, 12:11 AM   #14
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Tag...down my ally & would love to see a formal tbh short range shoot for bragging rights. All I got is a crusty 6br but should hang
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Tag...down my ally & would love to see a formal tbh short range shoot for bragging rights. All I got is a crusty 6br but should hang
was my favorite T/C barrel! Still kickin' myseff for selling it... Still have a great super 14" 5.56 and a super 16" in 7-30 Waters that are both one hole tack drivers...
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:29 PM   #16
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I donít take many pics of my groups but here are 2 back to back groups shot my teenage son. APR 280AI built off Rem 700 action, his hand loads.

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Old 11-01-2018, 12:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Tag...down my ally & would love to see a formal tbh short range shoot for bragging rights. All I got is a crusty 6br but should hang
Sounds fun, let's do it!
Maybe a couple of classes, factory ammo,etc.

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Old 11-01-2018, 01:27 AM   #18
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I really miss it & would like to set up a better range at the ranch & start playing again.

Here's my 6BR & most accurate current rig I have in the line up...I've had 3 other full blow bench rigs. One heavy & one light built on Stolle Panda's & one other light switch barrel rig on a Hall.

https://discussions.texasbowhunter.c...d.php?t=685820

Repeating the other link/post: This one is on the heels when looking at paper results compared to the full blown customs & sort of a interesting build from some time ago. The action was an experiment by Jim Borden in the fact he wanted to try sleeving the bolt. I really had no idea why he wanted to do this, but I'm always game & since his 280AI & the 2 other stolles shot so well, told him to have at it. He had the gun for almost two years before I got the barreled action back. I never bugged him and actually had the ppc's built quickly by him while he used this 700 as the test mouse. The stock was originally a 40x rimfire unit that a buddy of mine modified to work the bolt for a centerfire. It's no 3" flat BR McMillan but lies on the heavy side and somewhat similar oddly.

Again, Woody was Originally a ppc made with the same reamer as my Stolle's, then I started reading up on the 6br & decided wth, let's give it a little more gas & had Mike Bryant here in tx run the 6br reamer through it. Only real difference between these two cases is feeding it N135 vs the N133 for the ppc's.

It's one of those guns where you really need flags to wring out every last bit of accuracy. For those that have never shot a real accurate rig, making bug holes is easy on good days, but it's ALWAYS difficult to make those consistent screamers. You can see the one and only screamer group in the zeros in my profile / photo albums which was done from the light 10.5lb Stolle & most accurate rig ever owned. Shooting a screamer is difficult.

I like shooting groups but for this tbh deal we would likely need to shoot score due too no moving backers & keep the competition legit. It's actually very easy to think you got 5 shots in the group when only 4 have gone down range. even more easy to turn your 4 shot screamer into figure 8 with the final 5th shot. Backers keep you honest.

Will be hopefully working on a new range this season just for this...the current one my camp faces east & cannot really shoot till late AM due to the sun. The new good range will run North / South. Thanks again for starting the thread SSH.

This rig was built off my first deer gun being a 6mm Rem ADl with a 24" Hart tube, Jewell 1.5 & 40x wood stock that is pillared. Scope is a 45x crosshair & I use the 3 & 6 o'clock hold on the bull. Still gotta pull out the ole flags to do this right.
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Old 11-01-2018, 05:55 AM   #19
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Iím hesitant to even post this because folks donít believe it but...when my dad passed away in 2014 I got his old browning BAR in 270. I hunt with it every opening weekend and other than that itís a safe Queen. The first time I took it out to check the zero this is the group I shot at 100 yards off sandbags with factory Remington Core Lokt 130ís. Iíve never shot a group this good before or after that with any rifle. But itís always pretty dang accurate. And semi auto rifles have a reputation for not grouping...



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Old 11-01-2018, 07:45 PM   #20
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Here's a few that I happen to have pics of handy.

My 6.5 PRC Ackley with the first production run of Hornady factory ammo was spooky accurate. Still regret not taking that 5th shot.



I did smoke a fly with it on the next range trip


A 260 AI for another TBH'r


Random demo rifle with factory ammo on its first range outing. This would have been shots 3-7 out of a brand new barrel, and typical of what we were seeing from Hardy barrels at that time.
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:06 PM   #21
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Here's a couple more...

7APR at 1K in a pretty stiff wind.

Same rifle during load development. 5 @100


6 Dasher at 500 yds during load development. Not sure what it measured, but under 1/2 minute I'm pretty sure.
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:07 PM   #22
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I've shot a few good ones but this is one of my favorites.

I shot this 25 shot group including foulers after cleaning while fire forming my 22-250AI.

APR built 22-250AI on old as dirt trued 700 action, tuned factory trigger with a 22 inch Bart and McM stock. Now running a 7 inch TB out front.
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:17 PM   #23
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The best one I can find. A true one wholer measuring .171 for 3 shots fired with a mod 52 Cooper in 280.
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:33 PM   #24
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Old 11-01-2018, 10:17 PM   #25
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GA Precision
Templar Hunter action
Bartlein barrel
Little ******* gen 2 brake
Manners stock
Chambered in a 6.5 PRC
Trigger Tech Special
Badger Rings
Nitride






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Old 11-02-2018, 07:25 AM   #26
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10 Shots @ 100
308 Remi. 700 Rec. AICS Stock
Krieger CMG Barrel
JP Brake
NF 8-32x56
Timney Trigger
Badger Ordinance Bolt
Badger Ordinance 20mm Rail
P&H Bi-Pod
Berger 190 VLD-H
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:40 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendit View Post
Hey don't be hatin' on us amatures. I wish is could find the picture from that rifle with 3 groups of 3 that averaged just under .3 moa at 100. What I'd consider a quarter moa rifle with at load.

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Old 11-02-2018, 11:32 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick8 View Post
Hey don't be hatin' on us amatures. I wish is could find the picture from that rifle with 3 groups of 3 that averaged just under .3 moa at 100. What I'd consider a quarter moa rifle with at load.

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Come on now, itís not that hard.

The middle 3 shot group was just a sighter.
Load development 243 Win shooting 108gr Amaxes
Started at lower left and worked my across then up and then to left with increasing powder charges.
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Old 11-02-2018, 04:54 PM   #29
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Christensen arms 6.5 hairdo.

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Old 11-03-2018, 02:56 AM   #30
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split group can be caused by a loose scope mount--all things to look at . All and all a good basic shooting, Best Regards!
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Old 11-03-2018, 07:12 AM   #31
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Quote:
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Christensen arms 6.5 hairdo.

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Guess i should have also said i wasTesting out factory loads. 143 ELDX factory shoots great. Middle pic bottom is 16.99 a box federal non typical.Good to know i could use it for hogs without change zero

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Old 11-03-2018, 08:21 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWA View Post
Christensen arms 6.5 hairdo.

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Some super nice rifles.

Can someone explain the group measuring tool/software I see commonly used?
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:30 AM   #33
sir shovelhands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Huntin View Post
Some super nice rifles.

Can someone explain the group measuring tool/software I see commonly used?
https://ontargetshooting.com/
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:07 AM   #34
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I use the range buddy app
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:21 AM   #35
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Man I wish i had half the knowledge of firearms that yíall do. All I know is I have a couple rifles that always get the job done, I wish I could do some of this stuff though. Need to start researching!!
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:03 PM   #36
sir shovelhands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendit View Post
Come on now, itís not that hard.

The middle 3 shot group was just a sighter.
Load development 243 Win shooting 108gr Amaxes
Started at lower left and worked my across then up and then to left with increasing powder charges.
That right there is a shooter.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:29 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zozolio View Post
split group can be caused by a loose scope mount--all things to look at . All and all a good basic shooting, Best Regards!
and guess how much demand precision Tutuapp 9apps Showbox
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Old 11-03-2018, 11:46 PM   #38
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I have multiple sub MOA rifles but my current favorite is my 243



Typical groups




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Old 11-04-2018, 08:31 AM   #39
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Nothing fancy. Just a T/C compass 6.5 Creedmoor. With a Bushnell banner 4-12x40. Only thing done to rifle was a trigger spring swap and a YHM brake.

I donít take a lot of pix of groups unless Iím surprised. And with only having less than $300 in rifle. I was surprised.
This is rifle and first outing to the range at 200 yards. Using Hornady Black ammo 140 grain HP.



ďThere's more fun in hunting with the handicap of the bow than there is in hunting with the sureness of the gun.Ē -Fred Bear-
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:54 AM   #40
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260 Rem. Flier on the left was me not the gun.


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Old 11-04-2018, 03:37 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckwheat View Post
Nothing fancy. Just a T/C compass 6.5 Creedmoor. With a Bushnell banner 4-12x40. Only thing done to rifle was a trigger spring swap and a YHM brake.

I donít take a lot of pix of groups unless Iím surprised. And with only having less than $300 in rifle. I was surprised.
This is rifle and first outing to the range at 200 yards. Using Hornady Black ammo 140 grain HP.



ďThere's more fun in hunting with the handicap of the bow than there is in hunting with the sureness of the gun.Ē -Fred Bear-
Jeez, if I didn't pick up one of the walmart Weatherby deals I'd have to be all over one of these for $200.
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Old 11-04-2018, 03:39 PM   #42
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Quote:
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Jeez, if I didn't pick up one of the walmart Weatherby deals I'd have to be all over one of these for $200.


I went between this and the Ruger American predator. At the time money was a little tight so I went the cheaper route. I would have been happy with 1Ē at 100 yards. But around 1/4Ē at 200 yards blew my mind.


ďThere's more fun in hunting with the handicap of the bow than there is in hunting with the sureness of the gun.Ē -Fred Bear-
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:06 PM   #43
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Buckwheat, you shooting without a rear bag?

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Old 11-04-2018, 05:13 PM   #44
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I call them wallet targets...you keep one bragger group in your wallet to show how good it can do. However Nobody ever accepts a challenge for $$$ when approached for 5 / 5 shot group average.
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:13 PM   #45
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I won't be shooting or posting groups but settled at 1/8" 3 shot group during load development and it will still shoot at least minute of sheep at 515yds

Borden Alpine Ti
Manners EH3
Bartlein 2b fluted (miller brake)
Bix n Andy Tacsport trigger
PTG aluminum bdl metal
Leopold Mark 6 in Hawkins ring
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Old 11-04-2018, 05:14 PM   #46
Buckwheat
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Quote:
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Buckwheat, you shooting without a rear bag?


No sir. Iím good but Iím not that good. Lol
I do t use a rear bag out of the stand.


ďThere's more fun in hunting with the handicap of the bow than there is in hunting with the sureness of the gun.Ē -Fred Bear-

Last edited by Buckwheat; 11-04-2018 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:19 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Artos View Post
I call them wallet targets...you keep one bragger group in your wallet to show how good it can do. However Nobody ever accepts a challenge for $$$ when approached for 5 / 5 shot group average.
Iíll take that bet. Mine will average less than 1/2 MOA.
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:37 PM   #48
Artos
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Anytime vato , but you better check the link I posted...that 6br is short range contender & can hang an average in the 2's with good conditions. Honestly think a honor system group or score tbh short range BR shoot would be a hoot.

There is a saying that you either win or lose shooting a match shooting a PPC or variant & hope to have another some day. The 6BR / 30BR isn't too far behind.
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Old 11-04-2018, 09:18 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artos View Post
Anytime vato , but you better check the link I posted...that 6br is short range contender & can hang an average in the 2's with good conditions. Honestly think a honor system group or score tbh short range BR shoot would be a hoot.

There is a saying that you either win or lose shooting a match shooting a PPC or variant & hope to have another some day. The 6BR / 30BR isn't too far behind.
Iím not going to average 2ís. Mine isnít BR rifle. Itís a 1000yd rifle. 1/2 MOA works well for that.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:07 PM   #50
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I don't do the LR game yet...that's really a different game oddly enough so not really fair to compare rigs for opposite applications.

I have a 7mm Laszeroni that will likely beat most anything at 500yds with the right shooter she's a lickety split hunter pushing 120's at almost 4000fps with the fastest time of flight to 1k but ain't gonna buck the wind with vld's going slower.

You would love it...has a 4-5" line of site to 400yds but rounds are limited too less than 1k for the 30" tube & cost like $5 for every bang. Not practical but a fun long range doe taker
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