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Old 05-21-2018, 07:23 PM   #1
RickBarbee
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Default A Word on Single Bevel Broadheads

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Old 05-21-2018, 07:39 PM   #2
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Next time I'm hunting old grapes I need to take a single bevel head?

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Old 05-21-2018, 07:57 PM   #3
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Rick Iím usually on board with you but this video proves that a double bevel cuts more efficiently than a single bevel. That knife was cutting so much easier than the single bevel. Or at least it appears that way. I love single bevels so Iím not hating


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Old 05-21-2018, 09:26 PM   #4
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I think the point was the natural rotaional cut. However there is a trade off in bevel angle. The shallower bevel angle makes splitting bone more of a challenge as well.


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Old 05-21-2018, 10:20 PM   #5
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David, the broadhead was cutting the grape as easily as the knife. The problem was I could not stop the rotation to keep a thin slice.

So, in the end, it you are looking for a straight cut (no rotation of the blade), then a double bevel is the ticket, but don't ever fool your self into thinking that single bevel wasn't just as sharp, and cutting just as easily.

There's just no way to finesse cut with that rotation, but cut it does.

I kinda like cork screw cutting anyway.

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Old 05-21-2018, 10:26 PM   #6
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Iíd like to see one of those broadheads in person. I know I can get my grizzlies hair splitting sharp and Iím sure you can those as well they just look super thick. I bet they rotate well but seems like that would rob a lot of energy. Have you done any ballistic gel comparisons?


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Old 05-21-2018, 10:30 PM   #7
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Very helpful when attempting to harvest ballistic jellies. Which of course are much more difficult to harvest, but not as tasty, as grape jellies.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkincaid View Post
Iíd like to see one of those broadheads in person. I know I can get my grizzlies hair splitting sharp and Iím sure you can those as well they just look super thick. I bet they rotate well but seems like that would rob a lot of energy. Have you done any ballistic gel comparisons?


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I've done penetration tests with them against several other type heads, both double, and single bevel of the same weight, and on the same arrow.

They actually penetrated better than all.

They are expensive, but they are awesome. About the only way you would ever have to replace one is if you lose it, because you aren't going to break, or wear it out, and they have a lifetime warranty against structural failure.

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Old 05-23-2018, 10:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
I think the point was the natural rotaional cut. However there is a trade off in bevel angle. The shallower bevel angle makes splitting bone more of a challenge as well.


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http://tuffhead.com/education/ashby.html

Gary: check out #7 "Why single-bevel broadheads?"

Dr. Ashby explains how and why the edge of a single bevel splits bone.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:11 AM   #10
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I want my 4 minutes back.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:35 AM   #11
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Tough crowd 8)
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:38 AM   #12
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Some may be missing Rick's point of the video, which -- I believe -- was to show that a thick, single-bevel broadhead can indeed be made razor sharp ("shaving sharp"). To demonstrate that, he compares the clean cutting of a soft grape without tearing the skin or "meat" of the that grape. Obviously, the thin-bladed knife can be made shaving sharp, as it shows.

What is throwing some off the point is the fact that the video demonstrates an unintended major point beyond the broadhead's sharpness aspect, and it does this so dramatically that the sharpness of the blade is almost overshadowed. What the secondary point is is the obvious tendency of the single-bevel blade to push laterally (sideways) against the meat of the grape and try to rotate perpendicular to the line of the cut. This is why a single-bevel broadhead splits bone when shot into an animal. It's not a debate; it's proven fact. See the evidence of the lowly grape. Definitely not a waste of time!

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Old 05-23-2018, 12:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasma View Post
Tough crowd 8)
Naa. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tradtiger View Post
Some may be missing Rick's point of the video, which -- I believe -- was to show that a thick, single-bevel broadhead can indeed be made razor sharp ("shaving sharp"). To demonstrate that, he compares the clean cutting of a soft grape without tearing the skin or "meat" of the that grape. Obviously, the thin-bladed knife can be made shaving sharp, as it shows.

What is throwing some off the point is the fact that the video demonstrates an unintended major point beyond the broadhead's sharpness aspect, and it does this so dramatically that the sharpness of the blade is almost overshadowed. What the secondary point is is the obvious tendency of the single-bevel blade to push laterally (sideways) against the meat of the grape and try to rotate perpendicular to the line of the cut. This is why a single-bevel broadhead splits bone when shot into an animal. It's not a debate; it's proven fact. See the evidence of the lowly grape. Definitely not a waste of time!
^^^ THIS^^^

If you've ever tried to slice a mushy grape, especially thin slice it, then you know what it takes to get it done.

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Old 05-23-2018, 01:35 PM   #14
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Dr. Ashbey's conjectures have merit and value. However his stuff is a tough read. That said most of us shooting deer and pigs can get by without spending the money the quality single bevel heads command. That said I don't find them difficult to sharpen.

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Old 05-23-2018, 01:40 PM   #15
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Also if we missed the point it's because it wasn't clearly presented. He talked about how hard it was to make a thin straight cut more than pointing out a single bevel could be sharp. Of course they can be sharp.

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Old 05-23-2018, 02:23 PM   #16
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Here's another video showing free (non restricted) rotation of the blade.

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Old 05-23-2018, 02:34 PM   #17
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I did do the video showing how sharp the single bevel can be. The rotation was an unintended second attraction.

The "Reason" I did the video is I hear a lot of folks saying, that you can't get a single bevel (especially a steep angle single bevel) as sharp as a double bevel.

That/Their assumption is "FALSE", and only a reflection on their sharpening skills.

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Old 05-23-2018, 02:51 PM   #18
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What was the point of that video?
The difficulty of cutting the grape with the broadhead, despite sawing at it (even while saying you're not sawing), seems to run counter to the claim that the broadhead is as sharp as the knife.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
What was the point of that video?
The difficulty of cutting the grape with the broadhead, despite sawing at it (even while saying you're not sawing), seems to run counter to the claim that the broadhead is as sharp as the knife.
All I have to say to that is - Try it. You might then understand it.

Some folks will try to dispute just about anything, especially when they have a hard time understanding the things they are looking at.

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Old 05-23-2018, 03:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
All I have to say to that is - Try it. You might then understand it.

Some folks will try to dispute just about anything, especially when they have a hard time understanding the things they are looking at.

Rick
Well that's the thing isn't. Some folks don't want to go out and actually put in the effort to try something different. That costs time and money. And there isn't anything wrong with that. But when somebody comes by and tries to prove a point, then the answer "go and try it for yourself" doesn't really do much to validate the point. If you are trying to prove a point, then the onus is on the presenter to prove it... not necessarily on the observer to prove it for themselves.

This goes against most folks who like to innovate stuff's grain. A common thing I like to say, when I feel like being snarky is "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."

But I know deep down that is pretty snarky and not the way the real world works is if you really want to be influential in what you are trying to do... Your messaging and explanation has to be spot on... and not in how YOU see it, but how others see it. Taking feedback on "I don't get it" and massaging your explanation/messaging is paramount for helping people "get it"... IF that is important to you.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampRabbit View Post
Well that's the thing isn't. Some folks don't want to go out and actually put in the effort to try something different. That costs time and money. And there isn't anything wrong with that. But when somebody comes by and tries to prove a point, then the answer "go and try it for yourself" doesn't really do much to validate the point. If you are trying to prove a point, then the onus is on the presenter to prove it... not necessarily on the observer to prove it for themselves.

This goes against most folks who like to innovate stuff's grain. A common thing I like to say, when I feel like being snarky is "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."

But I know deep down that is pretty snarky and not the way the real world works is if you really want to be influential in what you are trying to do... Your messaging and explanation has to be spot on... and not in how YOU see it, but how others see it. Taking feedback on "I don't get it" and massaging your explanation/messaging is paramount for helping people "get it"... IF that is important to you.
OK, I LOLed at this, because - if you can't understand it in the video, then there's no way to make you understand it, "other than" telling you to go try it.

I went out of my way to try to contribute something to the community, and to dispel any wives tales there may be about single bevel broadheads. I didn't have to, but thought it might be informative, and useful for "some".

Slicing a soft & mushy grape without crushing, or tearing it is very difficult without a "very sharp" blade. Introduce a very thick single bevel blade, and the difficulty is greatly amplified, yet this single bevel did the trick.

Is there anything to be misunderstood there?

There have been several guys see these videos who make their living by producing quality & sharp blades. They were impressed, because, well because they understand it.

YMMV.

Rick

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Old 05-23-2018, 05:33 PM   #22
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So, the Single Bevel head makes animals more dead because the head cuts better?
I am just stirring the pot a little, Sorry Rick.
You are right in that, "If you don't get it through the video then you have to just try it yourself."
- Ever tied a horse to a trough, they still won't drink.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:34 PM   #23
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Good videos! Don't let them get you down. You're doing it right. Once you pique their curiousity it's up to them to do some reading and youtubing.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
Good videos! Don't let them get you down. You're doing it right. Once you pique their curiousity it's up to them to do some reading and youtubing.
Thanks.

The last thing I'll do is let anyone get me down.
They won't get me to give in either.

All I can do is lay out there.

Rick

P.S.
For those of you sharpening challenged folk:
Send your broadheads to me.
I'll get them so sharp it'll make your eyes bleed to look at them.
For a nominal fee of course.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:45 PM   #25
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I donít think anyone is trying to get anyone down. I was simply confused as to what the purpose was. The knife in the video threw me even further off. I thought the purpose was to show that you can slice a grape just as thin with that thick broad head as you can with a knife. Now that I know it was to show that you can get a broadhead like that sharp I know what the purpose was.


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Old 05-23-2018, 06:53 PM   #26
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Man oh man!! Somebody cares A LOT about the minutia of single-bevel broadheads.

More power to ya, but my G5s work just fine and I'll keep using them.

The condescension doesn't serve to connect you with your audience, if you're looking for input on your delivery. First one is free!
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:54 PM   #27
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Psh, one grape? Step your game up.
https://giphy.com/gifs/2xF8cNKui0gvyrRNJN
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:58 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sir shovelhands View Post
Psh, one grape? Step your game up.
https://giphy.com/gifs/2xF8cNKui0gvyrRNJN


In case you didn't notice - That single bevel broadhead isn't long enough to do that.

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Old 05-23-2018, 07:54 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
Man oh man!! Somebody cares A LOT about the minutia of single-bevel broadheads.

More power to ya, but my G5s work just fine and I'll keep using them.

The condescension doesn't serve to connect you with your audience, if you're looking for input on your delivery. First one is free!
What bow you shooting?

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Old 05-23-2018, 08:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
Man oh man!! Somebody cares A LOT about the minutia of single-bevel broadheads.

More power to ya, but my G5s work just fine and I'll keep using them.

The condescension doesn't serve to connect you with your audience, if you're looking for input on your delivery. First one is free!
I'm not trying to persuade anyone to switch to a different broadhead.
I'm only trying to dispel the "myth" some few believe, that you can't get a single bevel broadhead as sharp as a double bevel.

As far as the condescension thing is concerned, I point it back when it's pointed at me, but only after it's pointed at me.
Character flaw (maybe), but at this stage of my life I doubt I'll change any.
That one's free also.

David (Dkincaid), I knew what you were saying. No problemo Bro.

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Old 05-23-2018, 09:15 PM   #31
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I have some single bevel heads. I keep them shaving sharp. However I prefer three blade heads. That said if I ever go shoot a bison or elk I'll go with the single bevel because you know I'll hit the shoulder.

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Old 05-23-2018, 09:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post


In case you didn't notice - That single bevel broadhead isn't long enough to do that.

Rick
It wasnít?! My broadheads are all at least 8Ē long.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:06 PM   #33
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Quote:
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It wasnít?! My broadheads are all at least 8Ē long.
Awesome !!!, but that's a spear head at 8".

Rick
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:10 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
OK, I LOLed at this, because - if you can't understand it in the video, then there's no way to make you understand it, "other than" telling you to go try it.

I went out of my way to try to contribute something to the community, and to dispel any wives tales there may be about single bevel broadheads. I didn't have to, but thought it might be informative, and useful for "some".

Slicing a soft & mushy grape without crushing, or tearing it is very difficult without a "very sharp" blade. Introduce a very thick single bevel blade, and the difficulty is greatly amplified, yet this single bevel did the trick.

Is there anything to be misunderstood there?

There have been several guys see these videos who make their living by producing quality & sharp blades. They were impressed, because, well because they understand it.

YMMV.

Rick
]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
I'm not trying to persuade anyone to switch to a different broadhead.
I'm only trying to dispel the "myth" some few believe, that you can't get a single bevel broadhead as sharp as a double bevel.

As far as the condescension thing is concerned, I point it back when it's pointed at me, but only after it's pointed at me.
Character flaw (maybe), but at this stage of my life I doubt I'll change any.
That one's free also.

David (Dkincaid), I knew what you were saying. No problemo Bro.

Rick
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Old 05-24-2018, 03:49 PM   #35
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Rick I for
One appreciate all the info you put on here and Facebook. I have learned to look at some things differently because of your posts. Keep the info coming!!!


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Old 06-08-2018, 03:35 PM   #36
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Look what I got!



I still don't necessarily believe that they are as sharp as a double... I also don't have to to see other things I like about them. I'm taking these (along with some G5s) with me to Chama in September.
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Old 06-09-2018, 08:32 PM   #37
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Single bevels are more acute and therefore sharper by default.


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Old 06-09-2018, 08:51 PM   #38
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Single bevels are more acute and therefore sharper by default.





Attachment 911122


Hogwash! I have seen a lot of single bevels that were not nearly as sharp as my double bevels! Itís all in how good the guy doing the sharpening is!!!!!

And my German Kinetic double bevel heads are at 19* . I would be willing to bet there are not any single bevels that are steeper than that!

Bisch


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Old 06-09-2018, 09:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisch View Post
Hogwash! I have seen a lot of single bevels that were not nearly as sharp as my double bevels! It’s all in how good the guy doing the sharpening is!!!!!

And my German Kinetic double bevel heads are at 19* . I would be willing to bet there are not any single bevels that are steeper than that!

Bisch


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Actually, you'd have two 19* angles coming together. A single bevel cut to the same criteria would have one 19* angle and one 0* angle. You can call "hogwash" all you want, but geometry is geometry.
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:00 PM   #40
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Much to do about nothing much imo. In other words, fluff. Nice to have discussions about but I doubt any more animals succumb to single bevel than double.

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Old 06-09-2018, 10:46 PM   #41
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I have a nice 3" cut on my leg from a 2 blade double bevel head.
It was sharpened to a razor edge then given 1 pass on each side with a rough stone.
I didn't even feel the cut!
The head hardly touched me and it sliced through my pants, under armour and me with ease.
Pretty hard to beat a double bevel

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Old 06-11-2018, 02:11 PM   #42
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Rick, I appreciate the video. Thanks for posting that.

I will say that you can get both, the single and double bevel heads very sharp. Personally, I shoot some 3 blade and 2 blades. Of the 2 blade heads that I shoot, they are single bevel. I started with the grizzlies (that many people have taken many animals with) and have moved on to "thicker" single bevel heads such as the RMS gear Cutthroughts (not the same design of what you have but still thicker material like what you are showing). I personally love the thick single bevel heads as they do tend to have great penetration/rotation and do show to have the bone splitting action for when things do not go as planned. (This is usually my fault and why the single bevel is my #1 choice.)

In the end, I think it comes down to what you can get sharp. If you can't or do not care to sharpen a single bevel but get a double bevel sharp as a razor, that is your ticket! I can get a 3 blade razor sharp in no time at all. I spend a bit more time on a single bevel as I am not as efficient as others. That is why I shoot both. If I need to, I will sharpen the 3 blade quick in the field if it has been dug out of an animal or dirt and the single bevel at home when i have more time.

I love these threads as people always toss in their 2 cents (or more) but there is always a new side or thought or point of view that I had not considered before.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:47 PM   #43
Draco
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Thanks for the video, Rick. I may just try them now if I can get them that sharp.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:02 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
Actually, you'd have two 19* angles coming together. A single bevel cut to the same criteria would have one 19* angle and one 0* angle. You can call "hogwash" all you want, but geometry is geometry.


That is correct about the 2 angles coming together, but each angle is still what it is.

The hogwash comment was about a single bevels being intrinsically sharper than a double bevel. Any of them are only as sharp as the the guy sharpening can get them. Any of them can be razor sharp so as dull as a butter knife.

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Old 06-11-2018, 10:35 PM   #45
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I shot single bevel for a period, cutt throat, helix, grizzly, kudos and a few others ( thought they were the shizzle) . And found I had far better penetration on animals with double bevel heads. Tried shooting them threw bones on several occasions ( usually a bet by some one, saying they could do as well with there double bevel) and made some money, just because a lot of the double bevels would brake Before they would brake the bone, fully. And found single bevels did not brake bone any better, then a double bevel that would stay together. The strength of the single bevel is what helps it the most. But we shot the cutt throat and the double bevel VPA thru various bones and they both got through about half of the bones we shot them at. But I pretty much have proven to my self, double bevels seem to penetrate animals better, offering two holes, with the arrow fully exiting the animal. We shot several pigs and the German kenetics I was shooting, would get pass through about every time. The cutt throat, helix would hang up on the fletching at the entrance hole more often then not. Same bow, same arrows, same weight heads. It's not very often I encounter heavy bone unless it's on purpose. ( trying to prove my broad head can). And can also say the kenitcs stayed sharper after pass through then the double bevels. Just my two cents.

Last edited by critter69; 06-11-2018 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:24 AM   #46
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Don't let any of this distract you from the fact that in 1966, Al Bundy Scored 4 touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the 1966 city Championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School, including the game-winning touchdown in the final seconds against his long time nemesis, "Spare Tire" Dixon.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:00 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
Single bevels are more acute and therefore sharper by default.


Attachment 911122
In this diagram it's actually backwards. You show the double bevel ( blade thickness) as over twice that of the single bevel. And it should be the single bevel are generally far thicker( the thickness is where most of the help in splitting bones comes from IMO, more so then the rotation, but the thickness aids in rotation also) then the double bevel. Changes the angle at which they are sharpened.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:15 AM   #48
Mike Murphey
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I tried single bevel heads a few years ago, Zwickey Single Bevel. After several attempts to make them sharp, I called Jack Zwickey and asked him the correct way to sharpen these heads. I was sharpening them as I would any other Zwickey, 10" Mill ******* File but could not get them sharp without strapping them on the opposite side. According to Jack, he could not either...So I now hit them on the opposite side a few strokes and all is good, but I don't think you can call it a single bevel....
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:18 AM   #49
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Also you need different single bevel heads for right handed and left handed....
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:13 PM   #50
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Default A Word on Single Bevel Broadheads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Murphey View Post
Also you need different single bevel heads for right handed and left handed....


Huh???? Not right handed vs left handed.

You need to match the bevel of the broadhead to the helical of the fletching; right to right and left to left.

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