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Old 10-31-2018, 12:03 PM   #1
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Default ATF Prosecutes man for pistol brace

Good news is the ATF lost the case. This did not seem to be related to the shouldering issue that was brought up before. This could have set a dangerous president.

https://www.range365.com/atf-prosecu...WmWLskU6V9f.01

"The Bureau has defied its own definitions, saying that adding a pistol brace to a pistol made it a short-barreled rifle."
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Old 10-31-2018, 12:24 PM   #2
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Gun in question.


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Old 10-31-2018, 12:33 PM   #3
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Seriously guys come on! That hideous contraption serves no other purpose other than being shouldered. All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted.
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Old 10-31-2018, 12:34 PM   #4
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And l, what is all that other crap on the gun? This must belong to some millennial who has no concept of functionality.
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Old 10-31-2018, 12:35 PM   #5
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And l, what is all that other crap on the gun? This must belong to some millennial who has no concept of functionality.
Thats all that tacticool stuff
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
Seriously guys come on! That hideous contraption serves no other purpose other than being shouldered. All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted.
Very much disagree!!
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:07 PM   #7
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^Yup. Slippery slope… Gov shouldn't be involved AT ALL! Blows my mind to see "conservatives" arguing for more gov involvement in our lives.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
Seriously guys come on! That hideous contraption serves no other purpose other than being shouldered. All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted.
Hope you’re kidding. You should go read about why these arm braces were developed before you spout off that they have no other purpose than being shouldered. I suspect you might learn a thing or two about people with certain disabilities.

With that said, I can’t stand all the tacticool garbage people out on their guns. Why in the world would I want a scope, flashlight, laser, pressure switches, and a cotton candy machine on my hand guard? To each their own though, and let it be that way.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:52 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
Seriously guys come on! That hideous contraption serves no other purpose other than being shouldered. All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted.
"I support muh 2nd amendment, BUT....."
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:53 PM   #10
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^Yup. Slippery slope… Gov shouldn't be involved AT ALL! Blows my mind to see "conservatives" arguing for more gov involvement in our lives.
It's more clean cut than a slipper slope. It's idiotic.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:59 PM   #11
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Hope you’re kidding. You should go read about why these arm braces were developed before you spout off that they have no other purpose than being shouldered. I suspect you might learn a thing or two about people with certain disabilities.

With that said, I can’t stand all the tacticool garbage people out on their guns. Why in the world would I want a scope, flashlight, laser, pressure switches, and a cotton candy machine on my hand guard? To each their own though, and let it be that way.
To circumvent the NFA tax stamp?

The whole SBR regulation is a bunch of crap, yes. But kidding ourselves into thinking 99.999% of people buying a brace because they’re disabled and want to tie their AR pistol to their arm is not helping anything.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:00 PM   #12
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To circumvent the NFA tax stamp?

The whole SBR regulation is a bunch of crap, yes. But kidding ourselves into thinking 99.999% of people buying a brace because they’re disabled and want to tie their AR pistol to their arm is not helping anything.
That's fine, except that the ATF itself has ruled it's okay to shoulder them.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:01 PM   #13
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Very much disagree!!

Please enlighten me on what the above contraptions designed purpose is?
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:06 PM   #14
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^Yup. Slippery slope… Gov shouldn't be involved AT ALL! Blows my mind to see "conservatives" arguing for more gov involvement in our lives.

The Gov't is involved because there are written laws on SBR's, "pistols" and their use. If the person who was in possession of the pistol above was shoulder firing it, the firearm would then be considered an SBR and they have violated a law and should be prosecuted.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:13 PM   #15
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The Gov't is involved because there are written laws on SBR's, "pistols" and their use. If the person who was in possession of the pistol above was shoulder firing it, the firearm would then be considered an SBR and they have violated a law and should be prosecuted.
That is false.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:15 PM   #16
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That's fine, except that the ATF itself has ruled it's okay to shoulder them.
For now, yes.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:16 PM   #17
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Please enlighten me on what the above contraptions designed purpose is?
Not the point. ATF said they are ok to shoulder so shoulder away. What someone wants to put on there rifle is up to them and really has nothing to do with you. Just because you don't like a light on a rifle doesn't mean that they should be prosecuted for your opinion.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:18 PM   #18
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The Gov't is involved because there are written laws on SBR's, "pistols" and their use. If the person who was in possession of the pistol above was shoulder firing it, the firearm would then be considered an SBR and they have violated a law and should be prosecuted.


Absolutely not true.

Just because you shoulder it does not make it an SBR.


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Old 10-31-2018, 02:19 PM   #19
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For now, yes.
I get what you are getting at and agree. The ATF is a sham.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:20 PM   #20
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Not the point. ATF said they are ok to shoulder so shoulder away. What someone wants to put on there rifle is up to them and really has nothing to do with you. Just because you don't like a light on a rifle doesn't mean that they should be prosecuted for your opinion.

Great, put all the crap you want on it.


Maybe I should read the article?
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:21 PM   #21
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This thread is really making me want to build an AR pistol...
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:22 PM   #22
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Great, put all the crap you want on it.


Maybe I should read the article?
That's usually a good bet and can prevent someone from spewing false info in defense of their opinion.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:23 PM   #23
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I feel bad for the defendant. I bet it was incredibly expensive for him to pay for his defense. This isn't a happy ending for him at all. All because some bull headed ATF agent didn't understand its agencies own rules.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
Seriously guys come on! That hideous contraption serves no other purpose other than being shouldered. All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
Great, put all the crap you want on it.


Maybe I should read the article?
I didn't need to read the article to have an opinion on what you said. I strongly disagree with "All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted." If someone wants to put something on thier rifle and it is deemed legal than who gives a crap how they use it. Do people use pistol braces to get around the tax stamp? Yes. Is it legal? According to the ATF yes, so why in the world should someone be prosecuted for it?
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:28 PM   #25
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Ok, I read the article.


If a contraption on the end of your firearm is placed against your shoulder and the weapon is fired, then it's a shoulder stock which turns your item into an SBR.

Argue all you want with 1 line responses. Give me some proof.

pis·tol
/ˈpistl/Submit
noun
1.
a small firearm designed to be held in one hand.

ri·fle1
/ˈrīfəl/Submit
noun
1.
a gun, especially one fired from shoulder level, having a long spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.

Short-barreled rifle (SBR) is a legal designation in the United States, referring to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm, made from a rifle, with a barrel length of less than 16 in (41 cm) or overall length of less than 26 in (66 cm), or a handgun fitted with a buttstock and a barrel of less than 16 inches length.

A gunstock, often simply stock, also known as a shoulder stock, a buttstock or simply a butt, is a part of a long gun such as rifle, to which the barrelled action and firing mechanism are attached and is held against the user's shoulder when shooting the gun.

A gunstock or buttstock can be anything that is placed against your shoulder when firing the weapon.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:28 PM   #26
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I think I will dust off my copy of Unintended Consequences and remind myself of why the idiotic sh%$ show that is known as the ATF Firearms Division is inherently unconstitutional.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1shot View Post
I didn't need to read the article to have an opinion on what you said. I strongly disagree with "All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted." If someone wants to put something on thier rifle and it is deemed legal than who gives a crap how they use it. Do people use pistol braces to get around the tax stamp? Yes. Is it legal? According to the ATF yes, so why in the world should someone be prosecuted for it?

He is being prosecuted for the item turning his firearm into an SBR and it not being registered, IF he was shoulder firing it.

IF, he was not shoulder firing it, then it's a bogus court case.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:33 PM   #28
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If I as a gun manufacturer, for DoD research, have to abide by laws and regulations, then why shouldn't a civilian?

I mean, our 20mm projectile "guns" must have serial numbers and be registered. We also must have a manufacturing license, tax stamp, FFL, Explosives License, etc.

All of these items are for research and would never be used in production or an actual product. Why do we need to go through all the red tape? Because the laws state that we do.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:36 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
He is being prosecuted for the item turning his firearm into an SBR and it not being registered, IF he was shoulder firing it.

IF, he was not shoulder firing it, then it's a bogus court case.
Wasn't talking about the article.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:36 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
He is being prosecuted for the item turning his firearm into an SBR and it not being registered, IF he was shoulder firing it.

IF, he was not shoulder firing it, then it's a bogus court case.
https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/...ch-21-2017.pdf

Shoulder fire all day
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
Ok, I read the article.


If a contraption on the end of your firearm is placed against your shoulder and the weapon is fired, then it's a shoulder stock which turns your item into an SBR.

Argue all you want with 1 line responses. Give me some proof.

pis·tol
/ˈpistl/Submit
noun
1.
a small firearm designed to be held in one hand.

ri·fle1
/ˈrīfəl/Submit
noun
1.
a gun, especially one fired from shoulder level, having a long spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.

Short-barreled rifle (SBR) is a legal designation in the United States, referring to a shoulder-fired, rifled firearm, made from a rifle, with a barrel length of less than 16 in (41 cm) or overall length of less than 26 in (66 cm), or a handgun fitted with a buttstock and a barrel of less than 16 inches length.

A gunstock, often simply stock, also known as a shoulder stock, a buttstock or simply a butt, is a part of a long gun such as rifle, to which the barrelled action and firing mechanism are attached and is held against the user's shoulder when shooting the gun.

A gunstock or buttstock can be anything that is placed against your shoulder when firing the weapon.
Have you even read what the ATF’s current ruling is?
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:44 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by WItoTX View Post
I feel bad for the defendant. I bet it was incredibly expensive for him to pay for his defense. This isn't a happy ending for him at all. All because some bull headed ATF agent didn't understand its agencies own rules.
Seriously. The hassle and the probably tens of thousands in legal fees is actual punishment. All because some jack boot wanted to make a case. Pretty disgusting.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:46 PM   #33
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Shhhhh. He's on a roll.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:47 PM   #34
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Seriously guys come on! That hideous contraption serves no other purpose other than being shouldered. All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted.
Are you a Hillary voter ?? Just because you don't understand it or don't like isn't a reason to outlaw it. He did obey the law, he was the target of an over zealous or ignorant law enforcement officer.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by TacticalCowboy View Post
To circumvent the NFA tax stamp?

The whole SBR regulation is a bunch of crap, yes. But kidding ourselves into thinking 99.999% of people buying a brace because they’re disabled and want to tie their AR pistol to their arm is not helping anything.
Cmon man, give more credit than that. I don’t argue that most people that buy them do so to “circumvent the NFA tax stamp”. My comment was in response to someone saying there is NO OTHER USE for them. Actually, there IS another use for them.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:16 PM   #36
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Are you a Hillary voter ?? .
Cute.

Why can we not have a good old agree to disagree conversation without the need to insult or project upon the other parties?

No, I am not. Just stating my position on the article posted on this forum.

Thank you for the ATF letter link.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:20 PM   #37
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That dude should have been prosecuted for building an ugly stupid looking POS LOL
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:24 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by WItoTX View Post
I feel bad for the defendant. I bet it was incredibly expensive for him to pay for his defense. This isn't a happy ending for him at all. All because some bull headed ATF agent didn't understand its agencies own rules.
Reckon the NRA or maybe one of the manufafrurerea of these braces helped him out? Honest question. Seems it would be in their best interest to not let the guy go down for this.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:36 PM   #39
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Please enlighten me on what the above contraptions designed purpose is?
Who gives a ****? Really it’s none of your business why someone would do that.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:37 PM   #40
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I missed the picture of the gun.

I'd say he shouldn't have added anything to the brace. That's muddied water I wouldn't want to mess with.
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:53 PM   #41
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Seriously. The hassle and the probably tens of thousands in legal fees is actual punishment. All because some jack boot wanted to make a case. Pretty disgusting.
This is the reason I started this thread. I thought we were all on the same page about the current pistol brace issues and ATF regulations regarding the same, I see now that I was very wrong!

Regardless, I wanted to bring this to everyone's attention. Had this case went the way of the ATF, it no doubt would have had consequences in arrests, convictions and ruined lives over what would seem like bait-n-switch entrapment by the government.
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Old 10-31-2018, 07:29 PM   #42
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Absolutely not true.

Just because you shoulder it does not make it an SBR.


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If I should my revolver, does that make it an SBR?

/sarcasm


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Old 10-31-2018, 07:42 PM   #43
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If I should my revolver, does that make it an SBR?

/sarcasm


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Depends on who you ask obviously.


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Old 10-31-2018, 07:55 PM   #44
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If I should my revolver, does that make it an SBR?

/sarcasm


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Gonna have to see the video to decide!!
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Old 10-31-2018, 08:36 PM   #45
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If the dude wants to build himself a goofy looking Frankengun with his own money, then why should we allow the feds to tell him he can't? 'Merica!

Feds can go pound sand and whomever authorized the prosecution needs to be fired.
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:01 PM   #46
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Seriously guys come on! That hideous contraption serves no other purpose other than being shouldered. All of these stupid tacti-cool crap braces should be able to be prosecuted.
bet this guy is gonna vote for beto .
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:34 PM   #47
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Ok so to clear things up!!!

Is it legal to have a pistol with a brace? Is it legal to shoulder fire it?

Clear as mud so far
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:54 PM   #48
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This thread is not meant to be a 'what to do' when building a pistol. Everyone should know and understand the law before doing anything.

I posted this to make sure everyone is aware the jack booted thugs 'BATFE' are willing and ready to prosecute regarding things they have ruled legal.

YMMV>
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:21 PM   #49
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Are you a Hillary voter ?? Just because you don't understand it or don't like isn't a reason to outlaw it. He did obey the law, he was the target of an over zealous or ignorant law enforcement officer.
Hillary voter and aspiring atf agent!!

Why would we want more regulations for law abiding citizens?
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:22 PM   #50
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Montgomery County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXHunter12 View Post
Ok so to clear things up!!!

Is it legal to have a pistol with a brace? Is it legal to shoulder fire it?

Clear as mud so far


See link in post 30. Legal to shoulder pistol brace.
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