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Old 10-24-2020, 10:36 PM   #1
Briar Friar
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Talking Archery Shop Tech Says Its Good

I reckon centershot doesnt matter. Rest is maxed right. Sight is maxed right. Bareshafts hit 6” high vs fletched shafts at 30 yards, fly nock low and nock left.

Muzzy 3 blades hit where I want...out to 30 yards. Muzzy 4 blades plane right.

I specifically asked Tech for my rest not to be hokey pokied (I had done that already) and bow tuned. And was told upon retrieval...“Since tears were only left and right not up and down...cables didnt need to be adjusted...just the rest.” I never saw paper tears.

Axle to axle spec is 33 13/16 with 1/8” +\- tolerance...current actual is 34”... Can I simply turn a limb bolt to bring to spec measure length? Both limb bolts are bottomed out for max poundage.

Darton 3800 31”

Any constructive suggestions would be appreciated. Ive already asked one archery buddy and he said “Firstly...why is all that crap on the right side of the riser?”
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Old 10-24-2020, 10:55 PM   #2
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Not a bow tech by any means, but i see what your buddy is talking about, maybe some cam lean involved, interested waiting on more knowledgeable folks to chime in.
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:00 PM   #3
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Get a second opinion from a reputable archery shop.
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pure lefty View Post
Not a bow tech by any means, but i see what your buddy is talking about, maybe some cam lean involved, interested waiting on more knowledgeable folks to chime in.
I wouldn’t rule this out. My Reezen had cam lean from warped limbs and it was impossible to tune
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:39 PM   #5
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Have you ruled out fletching contact with rest or cables?
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:41 PM   #6
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Where are you located?
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Old 10-25-2020, 11:11 AM   #7
Briar Friar
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Have you ruled out fletching contact with rest or cables?
Kind of...
My arrow flight is consistent. My rule of thumb is if the flight is erratic then a good chance of fletching contact. I have not done the foot powder spray.

Brinkley...Im north of Austin in Williamson County.

I double checked axle to axle and it is spot on 34”...3/16” off spec and 1/16” out of tolerance.

I send my 2016 model bow to Darton for new strings about every two years. I sent it to them end of last year / beginning of this year. I had them change the cam spacers out and send me extra varying sized spacers.

BBBReezen...As it sits...there is no cam lean. However...isnt some cam lean natural during the draw cycle? (Per some youtube archery tech) I imagine being my bow rest amd sight are so far out of centershot...Im probably inducing cam lean from having to torque the bow to align the string and sights.

Broadheads do actually hit 2-3” higher than field points at 30 yards. Muzzys, NAPs, Montecs...all COC. So I reckon I could adjust my rest down or nocking point up.

Last edited by Briar Friar; 10-25-2020 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 10-25-2020, 11:15 AM   #8
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Is this the archery shop in academy by chance.

Seriously, find a shop and tech that not only knows what they're doing but care about the product they put out. Two different but equally important criteria.

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Old 10-25-2020, 11:34 AM   #9
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Not a tech by any means. But normally rest is not the first thing to be moved, normally fine tuning/bh tuning. Sounds like he didnt want to put it in a press to get ata to spec then sync cams then shim cams/twist cables as needed. My hunch is he is inexperienced or lazy. Either way take to a REPUTABLE bow tech. Depending on your location the guys here can point you to a good tech in your area.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:02 PM   #10
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Your ATA is fine. There is a tolerance there for a reason.

Center shot is center shot. If your bow won’t tune at center shot, it needs yoke tuned or cams shimmed. There is some tolerance on center shot also, but not a lot. Find a tech that knows what they are doing, because what you have there is a lot of ignorance and incompetence.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:52 PM   #11
Briar Friar
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Sleepy...Im confused...my bow ATA is out of tolerance (33 11/16- 33 15/16) per spec sheets....even though its only 1/16”.

I like doing archery business locally with small shops...not with big box stores...but Ive been to two shops locally and same results. I looked at increasing my bow shop radius but Ive lost desire to go further for the potentially same results and time wasted. I get the feeling many techs dont want to work on a bow they dont sell.

The closest Darton dealer is/was in Waco but the shops reviews seem to be consistent...poor service. Ive heard/read good things about the techs in Lampasas and Killeen techs seem to be variable. Ive signed up for the Darton blog to ask that community but it seems to not like my smart phone interface.

Im to the point that I am seriously considering investing money in all the equipment to service my bow myself....and for my kiddos in the future. So...moving forward.... with the learning paradox ....

Can I simply back my limb bolts out a smidge to bring ATA to with in spec tolerance?

Thank you all for your input.

Last edited by Briar Friar; 10-25-2020 at 12:59 PM. Reason: DontSellSpake
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
Sleepy...Im confused...my bow ATA is out of tolerance (33 11/16- 33 15/16) per spec sheets....even though its only 1/16”.

I like doing archery business locally with small shops...not with big box stores...but Ive been to two shops locally and same results. I looked at increasing my bow shop radius but Ive lost desire to go further for the potentially same results and time wasted. I get the feeling many techs dont want to work on a bow they dont sell.

The closest Darton dealer is/was in Waco but the shops reviews seem to be consistent...poor service. Ive heard/read good things about the techs in Lampasas and Killeen techs seem to be variable. Ive signed up for the Darton blog to ask that community but it seems to not like my smart phone interface.

Im to the point that I am seriously considering investing money in all the equipment to service my bow myself....and for my kiddos in the future. So...moving forward.... with the learning paradox ....

Can I simply back my limb bolts out a smidge to bring ATA to with in spec tolerance?

Thank you all for your input.
That’s not much off that mark and 100% is not making any impact on your tuning problem. In order to ensure everything is where it needs to be, you need to measure ATA, BH, DL, and DW.

Backing the limb bolts out will not solve the problem. ATA is made by the tension on the cables and string. Those have to be adjusted, not your limbs. But 1/16” is not out of whack. As long as everything else measures out, it’s fine. As I mentioned, you need yoke tuned or cams shimmed. That will solve your problem.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:14 PM   #13
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You're going to have to go in and tell them what you want to do. Or want done. Most bow shops are going to get it close, or get it to where it works. But that doesn't mean it's right. So tell them you want center shot set, then shim cams or yoke tune. You can move the rest away from center shot a hair (1/16 either way). Ata has a tolerance like sleepy said. I just realized we basically said the same thing. Also, knock tuning bare shafts makes a huge difference.

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Old 10-25-2020, 01:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
Sleepy...Im confused...my bow ATA is out of tolerance (33 11/16- 33 15/16) per spec sheets....even though its only 1/16”.

I like doing archery business locally with small shops...not with big box stores...but Ive been to two shops locally and same results. I looked at increasing my bow shop radius but Ive lost desire to go further for the potentially same results and time wasted. I get the feeling many techs dont want to work on a bow they dont sell.

The closest Darton dealer is/was in Waco but the shops reviews seem to be consistent...poor service. Ive heard/read good things about the techs in Lampasas and Killeen techs seem to be variable. Ive signed up for the Darton blog to ask that community but it seems to not like my smart phone interface.

Im to the point that I am seriously considering investing money in all the equipment to service my bow myself....and for my kiddos in the future. So...moving forward.... with the learning paradox ....

Can I simply back my limb bolts out a smidge to bring ATA to with in spec tolerance?

Thank you all for your input.
Backing out might: will make a movement..... but that’s not how it’s fixed or measured in spec.


Set rest back to center. If it won’t shoot there, then there’s other issues. SHOULD be cam lean at brace
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:42 PM   #15
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No help here, but I'd head to Hoffy's in Lampasas.
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Old 10-25-2020, 02:06 PM   #16
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What weight, draw length, size shafts, shaft length, and head weight you using ? List them and it may help a little trying to diagnose this with out being able see it.
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Old 10-25-2020, 02:36 PM   #17
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Tighten up your cables to pull the ATA into spec. Then check your cam timing. You may have to add a twist on one end and take a twist out on the other end to keep ATA correct. It is a trial and error process. I'm not sure if you have a one or two cam bow. Single cam bows should have a timing hole or some other method to use to ascertain that the cam is in time at rest. A dual cam may or may not have timing holes. Draw the bow and check that both string stops land at the same instant. That tells you that the cams are in sync.

Next, set your rest for center shot and height. Arrow should bisect the Berger hole. Adjust your nocking loop up or down to get a ninety degree angle between the string and the arrow at rest. Then install the sight with the pins centered with the rest. Start shooting and adjusting the sight for windage. Once you hitting the center of the target, start adjusting for elevation and setting pin gaps for known yardage.

Then, if you are of the mind to do so, paper tune the bow. I have beaten myself up for hours paper tuning. Sometimes it is just easier to adjust your bow with the arrows that you intend to use. I.E. tune it to your broadheads for hunting season then tweak the tune for field points after the freezer is full. This is a good excuse to own two bows. One for practice and one for hunting. Then you don't have to deal with the frustration of trying to get field points and broadheads to impact in the same spot.
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Old 10-25-2020, 05:38 PM   #18
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Draw cycle cam lean probably yes. My bow had cam lean bad at rest.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:17 PM   #19
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To me, the fact that a shop would have a tech working for them that would let something like that out the door speaks of their attention to detail.

IF that was the only way to tune the bow they should have told you there was something wrong that needed to be addressed.

You need a different shop with either a more knowledgeable tech or a tech that takes pride in what he is sending out the door
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:56 AM   #20
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I started gathering my own archery tools because my closest tech was 30 minutes away and usually open on days that I had to work. Got a lot of info from John Dudley and Josh Bowmar via YouTube. Also got help from some really good folks on this site (Muddyfuzzy and a few others). Took me a little over a month to get mine shooting bullet bareshaft holes, working on it part time. Hopefully won’t take as long next time. Learned a lot.
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
That’s not much off that mark and 100% is not making any impact on your tuning problem. In order to ensure everything is where it needs to be, you need to measure ATA, BH, DL, and DW.

Backing the limb bolts out will not solve the problem. ATA is made by the tension on the cables and string. Those have to be adjusted, not your limbs. But 1/16” is not out of whack. As long as everything else measures out, it’s fine. As I mentioned, you need yoke tuned or cams shimmed. That will solve your problem.
Word.

Thanks for the guidance.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:05 AM   #22
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Second recommendation for Hoffy's. Aaron and Jason are great.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:06 AM   #23
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As some one who used to work in a box store as a bow tech, not all techs are created equal. Some of them (us) cared about putting out a good product and fixing the issues while other did the minimum to get by. This goes for any type of job but especially in the big retail box stores. Employee turn over is crazy.

That is a long way of saying go to a reputable shop and have someone take a second look.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:19 AM   #24
Briar Friar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by critter69 View Post
What weight, draw length, size shafts, shaft length, and head weight you using ? List them and it may help a little trying to diagnose this with out being able see it.
Draw weight: supposed to be 68-70 lbs ( 70 lb max)
My DL actual is 31.5-32”
Bow DL is 31”...I shoot a Scotts trigger release and its adjusted to make up difference
Shafts: Beman ICS Hunter 300 31”
Shaft diameter: 5/16”
Aluminum inserts
100 gn heads
Total arrow weight: 445gn (100gn heads) / 470 (125 gn heads)
Speed (been a while) : 307 fps (100gn heads) / 297 fps (125gn heads)

Per Bemans spine chart...I should be able to shoot both 100 or 125 grain heads with my desired poundage.

Last time I/we(tech) checked the DW was 71-72 lbs. Im not sure where it stands now. Backwall seems solid and cables are within timing marks on both cams.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:22 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60 Deluxe View Post
Tighten up your cables to pull the ATA into spec. Then check your cam timing. You may have to add a twist on one end and take a twist out on the other end to keep ATA correct. It is a trial and error process. I'm not sure if you have a one or two cam bow. Single cam bows should have a timing hole or some other method to use to ascertain that the cam is in time at rest. A dual cam may or may not have timing holes. Draw the bow and check that both string stops land at the same instant. That tells you that the cams are in sync.

Next, set your rest for center shot and height. Arrow should bisect the Berger hole. Adjust your nocking loop up or down to get a ninety degree angle between the string and the arrow at rest. Then install the sight with the pins centered with the rest. Start shooting and adjusting the sight for windage. Once you hitting the center of the target, start adjusting for elevation and setting pin gaps for known yardage.

Then, if you are of the mind to do so, paper tune the bow. I have beaten myself up for hours paper tuning. Sometimes it is just easier to adjust your bow with the arrows that you intend to use. I.E. tune it to your broadheads for hunting season then tweak the tune for field points after the freezer is full. This is a good excuse to own two bows. One for practice and one for hunting. Then you don't have to deal with the frustration of trying to get field points and broadheads to impact in the same spot.
This is pretty spot on... cables need to be tightened which will bring the ATA in also should put DW in spec which I would imagine is off a few pounds.

Once you do all of this and you still have issues you may have some torque flaws you need to adjust. A reputable bow shop should get you taken care of on all of this.
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Old 10-26-2020, 07:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskles View Post
Get a second opinion from a reputable archery shop.
Agreed. Also, every arrow/broadhead tunes and flies differently. If it works for you then it is perfectly fine. Ranch Fairy would probably agree with this statement. Lol
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:04 PM   #27
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Agreed. Also, every arrow/broadhead tunes and flies differently. If it works for you then it is perfectly fine. Ranch Fairy would probably agree with this statement. Lol
And he would be wrong again. Lol A tuned bow will be more effective than any band aid arrow. And will shoot multiple arrow combinations.

I hope you get the issue fixed. There could be lots of variations that could cause what issue your having. But that far out means something isnt correct
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:19 PM   #28
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Looks to be a left handed bow. If the “tech” is right handed, it would be hard for him to shoot a good paper tear. I’ve tuned a bunch of bows, but I will never state that I can papertune a left handed bow properly. BTW, if it appears wrong, or way off of center, it is. Something is wrong.
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:20 PM   #29
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Looks to be a left handed bow. If the “tech” is right handed, it would be hard for him to shoot a good paper tear. I’ve tuned a bunch of bows, but I will never state that I can papertune a left handed bow properly. BTW, if it appears wrong, or way off of center, it is. Something is wrong.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:57 AM   #30
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My bow and I have an appointment with a TBHing Archery Guru. Im stoked.

Low Fence...I agree....however Ive killed with bow with worse tunes...when I didnt know better. Im confident I could kill with the bow setup as-is but there is some energy loss with the off center setup.

Rocky... makes sense. I saw on youtube where one tech discussed that the shooter should be the one paper tuning due to all the personal variations of form which affect bow performance/reaction and subsequently arrow flight and paper tears.

Its funny to me that I dont worry about centershot on my longbows or recurves but fret about it on my compound. Eso si que es.

Thanks again everybody for the suggestions and guidance. Yall have a great day.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
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Looks to be a left handed bow. If the “tech” is right handed, it would be hard for him to shoot a good paper tear. I’ve tuned a bunch of bows, but I will never state that I can papertune a left handed bow properly. BTW, if it appears wrong, or way off of center, it is. Something is wrong.
Probably this.

OP, I thought your buddy was making an joke about being left handed. It might not hurt to take it to the tech, and shoot it right in front of him (Unless you already did this). I am a lefty too. I always have to shoot in front of the tech, the last time I didn't I had a similar issue. Once I brought the bow back in, the tech got it fixed quickly, and for free.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:16 AM   #32
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First off, that bow has wheels on it. I thought you were more of a stick and string guy.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:19 AM   #33
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.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:09 PM   #34
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I take it your left handed?

God Bless
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Old 10-28-2020, 11:56 AM   #35
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Do it yourself. Reset your rest and sight. Usually 13/16" center of rest to riser is a good place to start, line arrow up with Berger/rest bolt hole. Line up sight pins with string and adjust accordingly. Your pins should be just right of the string(Left handed).

It looks like he has a Right handed sight on a Left handed bow. The bubble level is at the top!

If the bow is tuned you should be able to shoot any combo of broadheads and be accurate.
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Old 10-28-2020, 12:09 PM   #36
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So, there could be a number of reasons causing your tears. The first thing I would do is rule out fletching contact. There are a lot of marks on the arm of your rest and tape pealing, which if you cannot explain could be contact. Ruling this out is easy. Buy a can of athletes foot spray powder. Spray a light coat. Shoot it. If powder is knocked off, look for the transfer on your bow.

As far as cam lean, my understanding is there should not be lean at full draw, but there may be some lean at rest.

If you are not getting fletching contact and your bow is tuned to spec, you may be inducing torque with your bow hand or face pressure.

Good luck
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Old 10-28-2020, 12:25 PM   #37
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It that a right hand sight on a left hand bow ?
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Old 10-30-2020, 11:38 AM   #38
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are your vanes white? those white skid marks on the rest look like fletching contact
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Old 10-31-2020, 08:40 AM   #39
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I was having the same issue with my QAD. It’s most likely fletching contact. I swapped to a whisker biscuit to isolate the problem. Bow tuned perfectly at center shot.
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