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Old 07-17-2018, 11:23 AM   #51
RickBarbee
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Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
So now answer my questions

1 do you honesty believe that for most people in a target shooting stringwalking is not an advantage?

Answer:
No.

Target shooting is all about competition.
If you, me, or anyone else learns & utilizes a better method to shoot the "exact same equipment" as everyone else in a class, then more power to them for their effort, and hard work.

Restrictions outside of equipment are only dumbing down that competition, so it then begs to the question - Is it still a competition?

Any method can be perfected, and those who perfect their method/methods (whatever they may be) will usually be the best shots.

There are many shots on any given 3D course where one method will be an advantage over another. That advantage will not be the same for every method on every shot, so to be truly competitive you need to learn to be versatile.


2 if equipment is as big a deal as you think then why was the highest score posted at vanderpool in 2017 shot with a selfbow?

Answer:
Most likely, he has perfected his method/methods, but it's highly unlikely he would have scored as well against a fully tricked out barebow shooter who has also perfected their method, even if the barebow shower wasn't string walking.


3 also on the equipment front, why should an organization have to adjust their rules to to fit a guy who wants to shoot a 60 # bow and then gripe, cause it ain't fair, when he could buy a bow that fits for not a lot of money?

Answer:
Starting with a question - Why are you trying to make this personal?
I'm not.

I'm not gripping. I'm just asking questions.

I've already stated why I use my "hunting bow" to compete with, and it's no different than the equipment you use.

As far as the draw weight thing is concerned - while I have made comments about those who are shooting heavier draw weights playing a different game, I've never gripped about it, done quite well shooting heavy against lighter in competition, and I am definitely not skittish about doing it again.


4 And lastly what is the likely good that you will shoot in either the trad class or the bare bow class?

Answer:
And again, you are taking a personal level.
I don't understand why? But, I'll play along.

The likelihood of that is very strong, considering the fact, that the "only things" keeping me from competing in the ASA, and "several other" venues have been strictly due to my health, and financial situations for the past few years.

I still have a very strong desire, and when/if I get back on my feet in both categories (I'm getting there) you'll be seeing me again.


You: I can't post on leatherwall right now so feel free to copy and past this response over there for me, if you like.

Naa, but you can copy & paste this there in it's entirety when you are able to post there again.
Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:32 AM   #52
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Let me give a scenario, and ask a question.

Scenario:
You and I are twin brothers, from a poor family.
You and I love archery and bowhunting.
We/Our Family can only afford one bow, and set of arrows for us to shoot with, but we happily share that bow, and those arrows, and have fun doing it.

BUT, your aiming style makes you a better shot than me.
I don't care, I love my twin brother, and love to shoot with him.
I'm gonna get better, and beat him some day.

We both work hard, save our money, and start going to a few 3D competitions when we can, BUT we are still having to share that same bow, and set of arrows.

``````````````````
Question:
Give me a good/reasonable answer as to:
Why should we have to be separated into different classes just because we aim different, even though it's the exact same bow & arrows?

Rick
You do realize that being economically limited limits people to a whole lot worse than that right?

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Old 07-17-2018, 11:35 AM   #53
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[QUOTE=RJH1;13490643]

Here is my take on stringwalking vs not in you scenario:

As an organization you have to draw a line somewhere, many drew it at stringwalking, so the question is why there? The simple answer is because when allowed, it has a definite advantage.

1 do you honesty believe that for most people in a target shooting stringwalking is not an advantage?


Exactly.

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Old 07-17-2018, 11:37 AM   #54
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You do realize that being economically limited limits people to a whole lot worse than that right?

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LOL Gary, of course I do.

Still, it makes a good point for those who want to pay attention to it.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:43 AM   #55
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First, thanks, RJH for posting the rule-change info.

Second, a question: am I correct in understanding that the Barebow class allowing stringwalking by traditional shooters would have un-sighted compounds in the same class? IF that's the case, then the footing would be far from equal. Any perceived advantage from the sighting method of stringwalking would be drastically overshadowed by the compound advantages of speed and let-off.

Third, an observation: the difference between instinctive aiming and stringwalking (and you might as well throw in facewalking) is that adjustments for elevation are made with the bowhand and a subconscious sight picture for instinctive, while adjustments are made at the nock end of the arrow, keeping the tip of the arrow on the target consciously for stringwalking and facewalking. (We'll just leave gap shooting out of the discussion because any regulation of it is unenforceable -- who's to say where a person is looking so long as the fingers and anchors remain constant.)

This use of stringwalking and facewalking has been described as a "mechanically adjustable sighting mechanism" (because the arrow itself is the adjustable sighting mechanism) by some. Many feel it gives shooters an advantage over instinctive aimers. If we accept this and seek competitive "fairness", the solution would seem to be to have a category of "traditional" equipment allowing "unlimited" human aiming methods. In the real world, this would be called hunting.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:03 PM   #56
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Yes I know you do bud but my point is it's the brothers choice whether to compete or not and in any organization it's normal to adjust to the higher percentage of members/participants to build your guidelines around.

The majority of non string crawlers believe it to be a "mechanical method of aiming" and an advantage.

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Old 07-17-2018, 12:11 PM   #57
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Rick, none of it was personal, sorry if it sounded that way.

I have a hard time believing that you don't believe string walking is an advantage, if not why do all the top bare bow shooters do it? Kinda like why do all their bows look similar, cause there is an equipment advantage there too, and yes I know equipment matters, just like I know sighting style matters.
And I think if you looked at it objectively you would too.

Tradtiger, originally I thought it was going to be a wheel bow class too, but it is not. It will apparently be single string only, sorry for the confusion

Last edited by RJH1; 07-17-2018 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:31 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
Rick, none of it was personal, sorry if it sounded that way.

I have a hard time believing that you don't believe string walking is an advantage, if not why do all the top bare bow shooters do it? Kinda like why do all their bows look similar, cause there is an equipment advantage there too, and yes I know equipment matters, just like I know sighting style matters.
And I think if you looked at it objectively you would too.

Tradtiger, originally I thought it was going to be a wheel bow class too, but it is not. It will apparently be single string only, sorry for the confusion
Okay, then. Thanks.

Still an interesting discussion of aiming methods. I can see advantages and disadvantages within all styles, really -- especially when applied to hunting situations.

I know that -- at least a couple of years ago when their Mid America shoot was in Austin -- IBO had a "Traditional Hunter" division, and the main distinction I recall about it was that you had to use arrows that weighed at least 10 grains per pound of the bow's drawweight. (Might have needed to be wood or aluminum, as well. Not sure on that.)
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:51 PM   #59
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Jerome, just some food for thought.

Do you know what riser mapping is?

It is almost exactly like having a fixed pin for different distance's.

You use spots you learn to recognize on your riser, for the different distances.
No marks, nothing added, just spots on the normal natural riser. Those spots mean nothing to anyone else, but for you they are precision spots you use to get spot on for your distance, and you use/line up the arrow for your windage.

(Fancy wood risers with lots of grain, and pretty belly overlays lend themselves to being one of the most conducive to use for this.)

Sure, you are having to triangulate two different points, but it works, and for those who have perfected it, it works just as well as string walking, and almost as well for some as actually using an added on sight accessory.

Now, I have known, and know of folks who shoot the all traditional shoots/classes, and they use the riser mapping method to aim & shoot. I guarantee you, and others shooting the ASA Trad class have, and often do shoot against those using this method, and chances are most of them are among the top shooters.

How would you go about banning that, and governing it to keep it out of what is supposed be an all instinctive aiming method class?

Answer: You can't.

I'll admit it is one of several methods I use to aim, and I'll also freely admit I will use it in any competition without remorse.

Like I said sometime earlier, I don't mind gap shooting, and you'll never be able to tell if I am pure gap shooting, riser mapping, or shooting instinctive from one shot to the next.

Versatility is the name of the game, and whether they will admit it or not, there are many out there who use said versatility, and you probably know a few of them.

Heck, I even know a guy who shoots longbow who uses the knuckles on his bow hand as his sights for different distances, and his arrow only to line up his windage. He spent a lot of time (A Lot Of Time) learning that method, and perfecting it. Perfect it he did, and he used it to beat the socks off most the guys he shot against, but he never publically admitted to shooting any other way cept instinctive.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:11 PM   #60
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In asa "riser mapping " is illegal and in tbot , it is at least strongly alluded to being illegal. So I guess if people are comfortable with cheating, that is just who they are. And just cause I can't catch them, don't mean they are not cheaters. Kinda like people using their binos as range finders, cheaters gonna cheat....
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
In asa "riser mapping " is illegal and in tbot , it is at least strongly alluded to being illegal. So I guess if people are comfortable with cheating, that is just who they are. And just cause I can't catch them, don't mean they are not cheaters. Kinda like people using their binos as range finders, cheaters gonna cheat....
With that attitude, you might as well come straight out & say gap shooting is illegal also, and if you even think about looking at your arrow you're disqualified, even though there's not a human on the planet who can extend the bow & arrow out in front of their face without them being "well inside" their field of vision, unless they close their eyes, or they are blind.

Strongly alluded to is not a rule.
An unenforceable rule, is not a rule.

If you don't add to, or mark the bow in any way to assist you,
then it is not illegal.

Placing extra marks on your riser is illegal.
Using the natural spots of the riser to do the same thing is not.

Marking your riser is not the same thing as visually mapping your unmarked riser.

Even if visually mapping the natural state of the riser was illegal, how would you enforce the rule?

I guess you could makes rules stating that the risers "all" have to be the same shape, same size, be of an unbroken smooth shape & finish with no color variation, or transitions.
Yeah, that might work ( I doubt it ), but it would eliminate at least 75% (or more) of all the shooters in trad classes across all venues.

The binos thing is a whole different ball of wax.
Even they would have to have marks, or be marked to be remotely reliable. Just have a rule stating that marks on binos which can obviously be used as a range finding tool are strictly prohibited.
That would be easily banned/governed/regulated.
Don't show up with them, and if you do, and get caught using them on a competition course, you get DQed on the spot.
See, that's an easy one.

Rick

Edit for a PS:
I have a set of 10X50 Nikons, that I love.
I use them for hunting, and I use them for 3D to map my spot on the target to aim at.
I've experimented with the above bino as a range finder thing with them.
It don't work. They can focus very differently, and vary as much as 10 yards (or more) from one time to the next.
That don't work so well.

Last edited by RickBarbee; 07-17-2018 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 07-17-2018, 02:24 PM   #62
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Whether you feel it is unenforceable or not , it is a rule in asa. If people knowingly break the rule they are cheating. They are in effect stealing points and awards from other shooters. Sometimes rules depend on personal integrity ( that may be spelled wrong) but they are still the rules, and instead of arguing with me about what they are, or it should be, or might as well be, look them up. Gapping is allowed so I don't where that response even came from.
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Old 07-17-2018, 02:33 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
Whether you feel it is unenforceable or not , it is a rule in asa. If people knowingly break the rule they are cheating. They are in effect stealing points and awards from other shooters. Sometimes rules depend on personal integrity ( that may be spelled wrong) but they are still the rules, and instead of arguing with me about what they are, or it should be, or might as well be, look them up. Gapping is allowed so I don't where that response even came from.
Brother, I would not even begin to enter into a debate without knowing my material.

The ASA rule specifically states "No Marks", and means you can't add any marks to the riser in which to use as a sight.

It does not say you cannot use marks that are of the natural state of the riser.

Like I said earlier - If it meant anything otherwise, it would eliminate 75% (or more) of the trad shooters from the class.

Visually mapping the natural state of the riser is not marking the riser, but I digress.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 02:37 PM   #64
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Bow must be either recurve or longbow without wheels or cams. No release aid, no sights, a single stabilizer up to 12” in length measured from the point of attachment, no overdraws, no draw checks, must
have one finger touching the arrow nock, and must use one consistent anchor point. No marks on the sight window, string, or bow to use as an aiming or judging reference. All arrows must be identical in
size, weight and construction.


Here are the asa rules copied from their website , notice it says you can't use marks on the riser for sighting aid, it does not specify whether the marks are natural or not, just that they can't be used
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Old 07-17-2018, 03:10 PM   #65
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Bow must be either recurve or longbow without wheels or cams. No release aid, no sights, a single stabilizer up to 12 in length measured from the point of attachment, no overdraws, no draw checks, must
have one finger touching the arrow nock, and must use one consistent anchor point. No marks on the sight window, string, or bow to use as an aiming or judging reference. All arrows must be identical in
size, weight and construction.


Here are the asa rules copied from their website , notice it says you can't use marks on the riser for sighting aid, it does not specify whether the marks are natural or not, just that they can't be used
The operative words there are "No Marks".

Does that mean a natural grain line of the wood on the belly side of the bow, etc is illegal?

If so, and you want to construe it to mean natural characteristics of change in the risers, or whatever, then you are setting yourself up for a big fall, because like I said - that would eliminate a big chunk of the shooters, whether they are using those characteristics to sight with, or not.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 03:16 PM   #66
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The operative words are "can't be used as an a aiming or judging reference"
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Old 07-17-2018, 03:50 PM   #67
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The operative words are "can't be used as an a aiming or judging reference"
There again - an unenforceable "opinion" of a rule, is just that, an opinion.

What about fancy belly overlays?
A very convincing argument could be made, that they are intentionally placed there for use as a sighting method. Whether you are using them as such (or not) is irrelevant to the debate.

```````````````````

It was recently privately brought to my attention, that I used to have a very different attitude about string walking.

Yes, yes I did, because I didn't understand it, and until you have done it to the point of mastering it, you don't understand it either. I'm so glad I did, and do.

Once I gave it a serious try, I realized how hard it was to do it, and do it right to where it was of any benefit. I changed my mind to a complete turn around in attitude about it.

It takes a tremendous amount of hard work, relearning how to properly tune, and getting your form spot on for it to work.

String walking is "Far Less" forgiving of form flaws, and/or breakdowns in form, than any other method of shooting, Period. You are in effect shooting from a state of detune, and the farther down the string you crawl, the more enhanced that detune becomes. If your form, (and not to mention your distance judging) isn't spot on, then you are wasting your time trying to do it.

If you don't believe that, then I invite you to seriously give it a try. Not some passing glance at it. Give it a try, and master it. If/Once you do, you'll have a different attitude about it too, I guarantee it.

````````````````

I'll also take this opportunity to say, that in the past my disagreement with string walking was born of ignorance, and I regret that. I am extremely happy, that I learned different.

Also, If I ever gave anyone any serious grief/chastisement (I don't think I did) about their string walking, or support there of, I sincerely apologize.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 05:07 PM   #68
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There again - an unenforceable "opinion" of a rule, is just that, an opinion.

What about fancy belly overlays?
A very convincing argument could be made, that they are intentionally placed there for use as a sighting method. Whether you are using them as such (or not) is irrelevant to the debate.

```````````````````This reads a lot like "it ain't cheating if you don't get caught" I disagree wholeheartedly, if someone cheats intentionally they are a cheater whether their riser looks like a candy cane or just has a couple of strategically placed overlays. If they are being used for sighting purposes the person is cheating and must be ok with screwing over their fellow competitors RJH

It was recently privately brought to my attention, that I used to have a very different attitude about string walking.

Yes, yes I did, because I didn't understand it, and until you have done it to the point of mastering it, you don't understand it either. I'm so glad I did, and do.

Once I gave it a serious try, I realized how hard it was to do it, and do it right to where it was of any benefit. I changed my mind to a complete turn around in attitude about it.

It takes a tremendous amount of hard work, relearning how to properly tune, and getting your form spot on for it to work.

String walking is "Far Less" forgiving of form flaws, and/or breakdowns in form, than any other method of shooting, Period. You are in effect shooting from a state of detune, and the farther down the string you crawl, the more enhanced that detune becomes. If your form, (and not to mention your distance judging) isn't spot on, then you are wasting your time trying to do it.

If you don't believe that, then I invite you to seriously give it a try. Not some passing glance at it. Give it a try, and master it. If/Once you do, you'll have a different attitude about it too, I guarantee it.

````````````````I hope to try it out, if nothing else this thread has gotten me interested in giving stringwalking a whirl RJH

I'll also take this opportunity to say, that in the past my disagreement with string walking was born of ignorance, and I regret that. I am extremely happy, that I learned different.

Also, If I ever gave anyone any serious grief/chastisement (I don't think I did) about their string walking, or support there of, I sincerely apologize.

Rick
Responses in bold
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Old 07-17-2018, 05:29 PM   #69
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This reads a lot like "it ain't cheating if you don't get caught" I disagree wholeheartedly, if someone cheats intentionally they are a cheater whether their riser looks like a candy cane or just has a couple of strategically placed overlays. If they are being used for sighting purposes the person is cheating and must be ok with screwing over their fellow competitors RJH
Well, I don't know how else to put it.

If you want to call someone a cheater, even though they aren't using any different equipment than you, and (string walking aside) even though they are addressing/holding the string the same as you, then that's your prerogative.

My prerogative is to believe they are just better shooters.

This was (I think) productive, interesting, and enjoyable for a while.

There's really nothing left to be said. Once the name calling starts, and the accusations start flying ( and yes, you did ), the debate is rendered useless, so I'm out.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 05:42 PM   #70
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Well, I don't know how else to put it.

If you want to call someone a cheater, even though they aren't using any different equipment than you, and (string walking aside) even though they are addressing/holding the string the same as you, then that's your prerogative.

My prerogative is to believe they are just better shooters.

This was (I think) productive, interesting, and enjoyable for a while.

There's really nothing left to be said. Once the name calling starts, and the accusations start flying ( and yes, you did ), the debate is rendered useless, so I'm out.

Rick
I looked back over the thread and don't see that i called you any names. I did notice that you started the thread derailment on post 24 when the original topic was about a new class that i thought some of the trad shooters here might me interested in but, whatever
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:05 PM   #71
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I looked back over the thread and don't see that i called you any names. I did notice that you started the thread derailment on post 24 when the original topic was about a new class that i thought some of the trad shooters here might me interested in but, whatever
Derail?
Any time you post about something new, and expect folks who are involved (or want to be involved) to not give an opinion on it, then you're living in a fantasy world.

You need to read it all again, pay better attention to what I said, and especially to your responses.

I gave KUDOS to the ASA for working toward making it better, then gave my opinions, and suggestions as to what I thought would make it even better.
You disagreed. That's fine.

I openly admitted, that I will find, and "mentally map" natural spots on my riser to use for different distances. No added, or unnatural marks. Just using what is already there. We have a different interpretation of the rule, and you say that is cheating, therefore in your opinion I am a cheater.
That's fine too.

Now, I'm really out of this one for good.
I started to PM you this response, but I didn't want it misinterpreted as harassment of some kind.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:31 PM   #72
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I will leave on this one too, but i do want you note to that i only pointed out rules. I was very careful not to call personally a cheater. But I will keep the opinion if someone knowingly breaks the rules they are cheating, and there is no way to really sugar coat that.

Fair enough on the derailment aspect, i might have been guilty of that a time or two too HAHA

I also want to say we may never agree on this, but i am ok with that and you can PM anytime and i wouldn't think it was harassing haha

Have a good one, I am going to shoot :-)
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:42 PM   #73
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I believe Rick is a man of integrity. He may hold a position someone may not agree with. Me for example. He may outshoot my *** on a regular basis.
But he is an honest man. I would not accuse him of cheating.
RJ it's not a thread to go the way you intended but honestly it's a discussion that has to happen.
I've never met Rick. But I don't believe he has animosity towards anyone here. This is how evolution happens. Painfully. Violently sometimes. But we need to stay together in it because the percentage of us compared to the wheels is small. And in fighting and name calling doesn't help us.

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Old 07-17-2018, 08:39 PM   #74
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This is really my last post on this :-)

DRT, just to clarify i know Rick personally and would be glad to shoot with him anytime. He is a dang good guy, but that don't mean we are always going to agree on everything, how boring would that be haha.

I am done now for real, i think ;-)
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Old 07-17-2018, 09:41 PM   #75
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Tx
Hunt In: Jones and San Saba Counties and Missouri
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