Waco mini series. Branch Davidian

[big_smith]

I have watched part one and I thought it was well done. The reasons for the raid are simple. Koresh,(who I didn’t know was really named Vernon) had illegal full auto guns. That cannot be disputed. The real problem with the raid was that not only did the Davidians know the raid was coming, so did the media. According to the documentary Koresh told an undercover agent that morning that they were going to be raided. I spent about 8 years in Swat/narcotics and can tell you that when the element of surprise is lost, bad things usually happen. Unfortunately the guys that were sent in had no choice.

[batmaninja]

The man was a child molester and master manipulator. I don't care how bad the fed brass botched the planning....he broght it all on those poor kids.

As far as I'm concerned, any adult in the building who condoned what he did had it coming as well. It's a real shame good men had to die...

Koresh no doubt used the kids as a shield to hide. But the Feds knew they were in there the entire time.

Watched the episode last night, I want to say 8 of the 9 survivors said they would have preferred to die inside the compound. They really had some strong beliefs.

Nassar, Cosby, Weinstein, Spacey, were all molesters and manipulators. Glad they were brought to justice with out the same kind collateral damage.

[cap50948]

If you are watching this series go watch "Madman or Messiah" I think its on A&E.
Shows what looks like a good point of view from both sides. Has interview of survivors, home video tape inside compound.

It has definitely shown me a glimpse of the crazy of these people. One lady said she was jealous of her "husband" (I say that because Koresh decided that human weddings were not allowed anymore and he would also take of the burden of marital responsibilities, sex) because he was killed in the compound with Koresh which made him closer to god than her.

[Clay C]

Really all that can be said for sure, Is that it was a screwed up deal all the way around.

[Clay C]

In 1989, Weaver supplied two modified shotguns to Faderley. While the ATF maintained that the weapons supplied by Weaver were illegally shortened when Faderley received them, Weaver has claimed otherwise. The DOJ Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (1994) records that Faderley stated Weaver showed him an unaltered shotgun and Faderley pointed out where he wanted Weaver to cut the gun..........By June 1990, Faderley had been outed to Aryan Nations security. Weaver was then approached by ATF agents and told that they had evidence of his possession and sale of illegal weapons, and offered to drop the charges in return for his co-operation in infiltrating the Aryan Nations. Weaver refused. He was initially arrested by ATF agents on charges relating to transfer of a short-barreled shotgun without a license in January 1991.

Not trying to side track here, but my understanding is there was some entrapment kind of stuff going on at RR.

They also, got paid off by the Feds.

Both the Weaver family and Harris brought civil suits against the government over the events of the firefight and siege, the Weavers winning a combined out-of-court settlement in August 1995 of $3.1 million, and Harris being awarded, after persistent appeals, a $380,000 settlement in September 2000.

The way that all went down is absolutely disgusting.

[Roy Munson]

except for the whole child molestation thing...meets the criteria for your immediate bracketed point..so everything else making the case that it was 'foolish show' is now irrelevant.

the screwed up the element of surprise.. doesnt change the alleged crimes being committed, or the need to intervene.

Nope, according to him he was just consummating marriage... with a 13 year old.

[Quackerbox]

Lots of interesting perspectives on this thread... which is one of the reasons I typically avoid much discussion about this topic. So far, i've only read two of us on this thread that were actually there, and the other 98% are arm chair quarterbacking about it. I was on the front line... I had the blood of those agents (literally) on my hands... Let's just remember that all four of them - Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Robert John Williams, and Steven Willis were all law enforcement agents who put their lives on the line every day for us. They were sons, husbands, fathers, uncles, and friends. They were good men who followed the orders on the day...It is easy to look back, this many years later, and say what was done right or what was done wrong. It was a different time, with different approaches and tactics. I do know that this event has been used as a case study for many to learn from. I can tell you it changed me, forever.
.

Which is exactly what happens with nearly every LE related thread here. No matter the outcome. Ive been 'on the line' of more than one topic posted here (not waco) and more often than not the average poster makes their decision based on the media. Ive witnessed the media get info only to change it or give half of it so that it sells better

Thanks for doing what you did for those 51 days

[batmaninja]

In the early 1980s, Koresh, then known as Vernon Howell, moved to Waco, Texas, and joined the Branch Davidians. He had an affair with the sect's much older prophetess, Lois Roden, and in 1984, he married a teenaged Branch Davidian named Rachel Jones, with whom he would have two children.

When Roden passed away, Koresh and Roden's son, George, argued about who would take over the Branch Davidians. Koresh left the sect with his followers and lived in eastern Texas for a while. In 1987, he and a handful of his devotees returned to Mount Carmel heavily armed and shot Roden, who survived the attack. Koresh and his crew were tried for attempted murder but were acquitted.

https://www.biography.com/people/david-koresh-9368416

I found this pretty interesting, I didnt know the BD existed before Koresh...

[Clay C]

They knew a whole lot more than that but Yea that raid should have never happened for many reasons.. There was no reason for anyone to die that day.
Especially all of those children..

This is what it boils down to for me.

[skshave1]

I can't wait to miss it !!!

[Ryan81]

Anyone recommend some good books to read on this?

I have general knowledge but this occurred a few months before I was born. I would love to read and become more informed about this event.


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[DRT]

There were accusations around the child abuse issues; however, ATF led the raid due to the firearms issues, which was probably the lions share of the PC for the event. They were highly trained in advanced weaponry, and had weapons, at the time, that were prohibited or not properly licensed.

The only trouble in that line of thinking is many of us still feel those gun restrictions are unconstitutional.

I wonder what will happen when the day comes that all of our guns are made illegal and the government wants them turned in. I doubt any law abiding person wants to stand against our LEOs in defiance and take innocent lives. But how else do we stand up for our rights? Yeah Koresh was a nut job. Yes Weaver sawed off a couple of shotguns. But gun regulation violations don't equate to the loss of innocent lives. I feel sad for the slain officers. They were doing their jobs. But they were sent to do it by a government that has unjustly and illegally infringed on our second amendment rights.

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[Dale Moser]

Mistakes were made....but they had 51 days to get the kids out. Those people were crazy, which is not illegal. But they aligned themselves with a crazy man knowing he had illegal weapons inside, and he "preached" war.

Be crazy, and you get looked at funny at home depot. Be crazy with a guy who preaches we'll kill them with automatic weapons....get burned out.

It's a terrible tragedy what happened to the kids in there, absolutely aweful. But the parents had 51 days to get their kids out and act like parents.

[Dale Moser]

The only trouble in that line of thinking is many of us still feel those gun restrictions are unconstitutional.

I wonder what will happen when the day comes that all of our guns are made illegal and the government wants them turned in. I doubt any law abiding person wants to stand against our LEOs in defiance and take innocent lives. But how else do we stand up for our rights? Yeah Koresh was a nut job. Yes Weaver sawed off a couple of shotguns. But gun regulation violations don't equate to the loss of innocent lives. I feel sad for the slain officers. They were doing their jobs. But they were sent to do it by a government that has unjustly and illegally infringed on our second amendment rights.

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It's the difference in dissagreeing with a law and hiding behind it to commit pedophilia......and revolution.

I disagree with the gov't regulating certain firearms....but I'm not ready to shoot anyone over it. If they come after them (which they won't), I may change my tune (as would the police/military), but who would come get them?


Pedophilia....I would shoot a man over.

[DRT]

It's the difference in dissagreeing with a law and hiding behind it to commit pedophilia......and revolution.

I disagree with the gov't regulating certain firearms....but I'm not ready to shoot anyone over it. If they come after them (which they won't), I may change my tune (as would the police/military), but who would come get them?


Pedophilia....I would shoot a man over.

You're right about the pedophile part. But sooner or later the anti gun crowd will make progress. Places like the UK and Australia prove it can happen. And they as a group have rolled over and turned them in. I doubt it happens here in my lifetime. But with on this century I believe our constitution will be gutted.

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